Nightscrawlers

I read an interesting article this morning on the growing trend of protestants to follow a more catholic way of thinking on birth control. That is - basically to not allow any method of birth control whatsoever, including the one allowed method of the catholic chuch - charting fertility cycles.

I'm a bit mixed on it myself - I feel that people have the right to do what they want, provided that it does not bring harm to others. I am not so hot on the fact that they are lobbying against birth control though. I guess where I am a little mixed on it is the fact that they are raising their children to value the woman as a mother...in the traditional sense. I worry that this adoption of 'traditional' roles also may be a way to render these women less powerful than their husbands, which can lead to all sorts of problems as we all know.

I guess what I am saying is that if you are willing to 'open your womb to God' power to you, IF you do not train your children into some sense of gender inequality. Women should be free to pursue what they want in life, and if you are telling them that their only value is to stay home and pop babies out, then yeah - I have issues with that.

Paws

And that is why I have a gigantic hate-on for the Catholic Church. Having kids shouldn't be an obligation.

Note the phrasing of the psalm they base it on. "Happy is the man." No mention of women AT ALL.

Fuck that makes me mad.

It's really too bad that these people have to use such a retarded and misogynistic translation of Psalm 127.

Here's the translation of the complete Psalm from the New American Bible which is used by the Catholic Church:

Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build.
Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.
It is vain for you to rise early and put off your rest at night, To eat bread earned by hard toil-- all this God gives to his beloved in sleep.
Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one's youth.
Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.

For one thing, it's not really about men, wombs, or procreation. Yes, there's a line about children being a gift and a reward, but it doesn't say anything about only God opening and closing it.

This Psalm wasn't even written by the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter). It was written a thousand or so years BEFORE Jesus by the Jews and is meant to be a parable about the importance of keeping God in mind when you work and rest. (I guess you could include procreation in that if you want...)

And on a historical note: The last line refers to an ancient form of legal litigation and has nothing to with the actual defense of city gates. In law courts of the period when this Psalm was written - a man would declare his linage of sons before making claim to a legal dispute. It just so happened that each city's law courts were located at their gates.

The bible should never be taken too literally...

-e

Oooh - awesome to know! And yes, it never fails me how people can look at one thing and ignore all others in to follow just that one small thing. Of course, this doesn't happen only in religion.

Paws

Well - I would hate for anyone to be mad or have 22 children over a single badly translated bible verse.

But I'm silly that way.

-e

No need to get mad or have 22 children. There is a middle ground. I had heard and read about (and from) "quiverfull" families long before this article, and while I disagree with those who insist that even natural family planning is sinful, there are three points those I've spoken with made that make me think they are not entirely wrong. (Besides the obvious fact that the mothers of these families went into this of their own free will.)

1. It is dehumanizing to regard children as burdens.

2. Fertility is a natural part of being human, not a disease that, particularly in women, must be artificially controlled.

3. A society in which a woman must suppress her fertility in order to get ahead and a society in which women are only valued if they pop out babies have this in common: In each, how we are regarded is affected by how fertile we are or aren't. Both are sexist.

Originally posted by Saint Kurt
Well - I would hate for anyone to be mad or have 22 children over a single badly translated bible verse.

But I'm silly that way.

-e

Hahahaha! Exactly. And particularily when they use one badly translated bible verse to try and impose their will on others (ie lobbying against birth control).

Again, its not really the fact that these women have chosen to do that - if that works for you, fine and dandy. I just worry about the freedoms that their children are raised in. This is a concern with all sorts of things though - for example a child raised in a racist home.

I just would hate to see a child raised to believe that the only way that she could 'be good and get to heaven' would be to mother a dozen children. Of course I'm not saying that everyone within this community would do that to their child, but the potential is there. I believe that a woman should feel right in choosing what they want for their life - regardless if that means 12 children or just one, without the fear that they will be branded 'bad or wrong' by others. And it does go both ways.

Paws

Originally posted by Saint Kurt
It's really too bad that these people have to use such a retarded and misogynistic translation of Psalm 127.

Here's the translation of the complete Psalm from the New American Bible which is used by the Catholic Church:

Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build.
Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.
It is vain for you to rise early and put off your rest at night, To eat bread earned by hard toil-- all this God gives to his beloved in sleep.
Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one's youth.
Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.

That quote is even worse. "Have lots of children, they are useful pawns." Why o why do people base their lives on this?

I don't want children, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try to pass laws restricting the number other people can have. Although I do still see people who have more than five or so as completely insane.

I dont get why people just cant keep their nose out of other peoples business basically. When I go into my bedroom and shut my door, what happens behind that door is no one elses business but my own, and my patners have I one with me. If i use a condom, or if I don't, or if i use a fucking gerbil, thats no one's business! Why do people think it suddenly is?!

Thats the biggest issue with campaigning against contraception. It's not your business what I do and its not my business what you do so lets all just stop talking about it please

HEY! Actually...the gerbil thing IS my business. Other than that - yeah. Exactly.

Paws

That quote is even worse. "Have lots of children, they are useful pawns." Why o why do people base their lives on this?

They're not basing their lives on your interpretation, which is what that is.

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
HEY! Actually...the gerbil thing IS my business. Other than that - yeah. Exactly.

Paws

You're just jealous you can't watch