Iceman's Problem

[Lauren]

now honestly, what is Iceman's problem? For some reason, he always gets mad at some point and claims that only he, jean, scott, warren, and hank are the "real" x-men. and it's always in front of Kurt. does he not like kurt or something? He does it in Classic X-men 1 when Kurt first joins, and again in 417! What's his problem? Is he a Nightie hater?

[Nightcrawler ZERO]

Well, for one, Iceman learned heartache at about the time the X-Men took on their first recruits (Alex and Lorna) maybe he just wants to return to the simpler times of the first team when he didn't have to face such problems. Basicly, he doesn't want to grow up

[SheCat]

I've seen this happen once in front of Kurt and once in front of Annie (thugh it was more reflective than explosive then).

My theory is that he's got a typical view that people have been ignoring him. Let's see, Lorna gets married at the drop of a hat, Annie goes off with Alex, Lorna reverses his blood flow...that was just during Holy War.

Bobby is usually the underdog when it comes to people's opinions. He's stubborn. If somebody doesn't agree with him, he gets mad and feels almost rejected. When he feels rejected, he gets explosive (UXM Dominant Species Graphic Novel) and/or mildly depressed (UXM Holy War Graphic Novel).

I don't think he dislikes Nighty at all. He just feels left out. If you look back into the early comics, it mentions that he's younger than the rest. This would also be a reason to feel ostracized. He likes to remember the times when it was just him and the guys because then he doesn't have to understand that the world just doesn't stop for him.

As to your inquiry on Nighty hating, he has paid him compliments. Ex: "Not many people besides Kurt can keep up with me."


But that's just me babbling.

[frozencatnip]

I don't think Bobby has a problem with Kurt at all. He's been going through a lot lately - he explained it all to Annie in one issue, I forget the number.

To his mind, NOTHING is going right for him right now. Nothing has since the early days of the X-Men, which is why he keeps referring back to that. He's changing into ice, which makes him think he'll have even less luck in the romance department than he ever has. The only girl who's been interested in him recently was an empath who was hitting on every guy in sight, with a husband who appeared to be made out of mud and who tried to kill Bobby.

His ex-girlfriend (Lorna), who should be institutionalized, proposed to Havok within mere hours of him coming out of a coma. This had to give Bobby further flashbacks to the early days of the X-Men, when Lorna dumped him for Alex.

He actually *does* seem to like Kurt - as someone else mentioned, he makes a point of complimenting him to Annie, and sticks up for him when Scott reams him about not telling anyone about the Church of Humanity. He just has a lot of issues right now, and no one seems to care all that much; not his friends from the original X-Men, not his current teammates. Nobody except Kurt, who tries to reach out and seems to present himself as a target for Bobby's pent up anger about the whole scenario.

Hopefully Austin will resolve the whole Bobby subplot before he leaves - I'm afraid it'll drop off into oblivion if it's left dangling. And Bobby usually *isn't* like this.

____________

Iceman: Bobby Drake. One of the first X-men ever. Still the cutest.
--X-men 66

[Warbird]

I feel like bobby is one of those people who just blames every one else for his problems. When he's down and out, instead of actually looking at what he could do to fix a situation, he blames others. His constant pointing out that he is an original is a manisfestation of this tendancy. He thinks "things weren't always liek this for me so it must be them.... Hey!!! but I was first, they should leave so my problems go away". This happens even if the problems with him. Like blaming Alex for Lorna and Annie not wanting to be with him. He just can't own up to his own short comings. It's not that he really dislikes any of the other X-Men, it's just easier to blame them than facing reality. I like that Bobby is like this though, because so many people are like this in the real world. One of the things that I really like about the X-Men is that there are divers personalities that reflect common people in the real world.

[frozencatnip]

Originally posted by Warbird
I feel like bobby is one of those people who just blames every one else for his problems. When he's down and out, instead of actually looking at what he could do to fix a situation, he blames others.

I don't agree, or at least, not completely. Has Bobby been acting like this recently? Yes. Has he always? No.

Bobby is plagued by a serious lack of self-confidence. I don't think he's really blaming other people (with the possible exception of Alex, but then they've NEVER gotten along) as much as he is himself, but he's taking out his frustrations on everyone around him. This is pretty new for him, actually - well, I'll concede he did much the same thing back when the "new" X-Men joined the team, but I haven't seen him do it since.

Is Bobby feeling sorry for himself? Definitely. On the other hand, if I were turning into ice and NOT ONE friend, teammate, or nosy telepath even noticed, I'd probably be feeling sorry for myself, too.

As for his relationship with Alex, well, I can't blame him for not being too thrilled with a guy who was holding up his head making bad Hamlet puns...throw in that Bobby had been with Annie the night before the wedding, and she apparently left him without a thought once she realized Alex wasn't getting married - yes, he's bitter about it. I'd be awfully surprised if he weren't.

[Lauren]

Actually, when Kurt, Collossus, Wolverine, thunderbird, Storm, and Banshee first join, there's a whole scene where bobby claims that they're not welcome here, and that they're not real X-men. Kurt tried to calm the situation and even offers Bobby his hand in a handshake.

Bobby slams the door in Kurt's face. I don't think this is a new problem really. He just seems to have this thing that is old and was pent up so long that now...he screams at Kurt in 416, and then spills it out in 425.

[frozencatnip]

I conceded that he acted like a jerk when the new X-Men joined (circa Giant Size #1), but is there any evidence of that since, until recently? I'm sure that's what Austen was drawing on, but he's been teammates with most of the 2nd team of the X-Men before since the disbanding of X-Factor, without incident. He and Rogue became good friends, and he and Cecelia Reyes always got on well.

I can't remember how he and Kurt got along in the Excalibur/X-Factor crossover, but I don't remember any problems other than Scott/Kurt over leadership, and that's practically a constant.

Bobby's running scared - cut him a little slack, please? I know he's been something of a jerk lately, but I'm hoping he'll get back to himself! It's been a long, drawn out plotline, after all - and one that's been getting nearly no attention with all the Nightcrawler, Alex, Warren, and Annie angst going around.

[SheCat]

Yes, mainly because he's very insecure. He feels newcomers will intrude on his space and 'replace' him, like Alex did with Lorna. And then Alex did with Annie later.

He's also got a few reasons to feel ostracized. First, he's younger than most of the other X-Men. Second, he's turning into ice. Third, he hasn't got a girl. Fourth, his mutation deals with the cold. What is one of the most sacred things to humans? Warmth, fire, heat. We even use the term 'cold' for someone cruel. Undoubtedly, though he hasn't expressed it, this must have been nagging at him for some while.

Ex: "You turn into a block of ice that no one will ever want to kiss because kissing is about warmth and kissing is about - about warmth and I want someone who - I want someone..."

I've analyzed that for a while. By turning into ice, he's afraid he'll eventually be something completely unattractive and no one will ever love him or even be his friend. Also, he's getting lonely. And as Annie says, he doesn't want to becaome a 24/7 mutant like Kurt.

By having other mutants come and join the team, he feels like the X-Men are choosing people that are more useful than him and that he's going to be superfluous or just plain useless.

I can empathize with him. He's been a favey of mine for a while. He's also got a very realistic mindset that he's not good enough, therefore the standard must be kept down.


Again, too much caffeine...

[Ult_Sm86]

Well now that his head is quite nicely removed from the exploded pieces of what was once his body, I don't blame him for being hornry.<-i didn't spell that right...

Anyways I think it's not neccessarily BOBBY i think Chuck wanted to add some drama and Bobby is a character who has always been labeled as the guy who doens't let anything get to him who shows no feelings really besides being jovial and funny. HE's in a sense just like ice. (Well duh) But people see right through him sometimes I think and miss that even though he's a goof he's still got feelings. And he's scared to end up like Kurt a mutant who STANDS OUT. He's always been able to walk a crowd normally but how are you gonna do that looking like an Ice Sculpture from Michigan or even worse and head of ice in a jar? He's grown up knowing he's different but feeling cool I think and now he's come to a realization that he's more than different and he's (yes of course cool) but he's gonna have to learn to deal, maybe get a new belt? (I still thinkit was the most RIDICULOUS idea ever but I can deal with it.)
Bobby has forever been one of my favorite characters and I firmly beleive that he's just a little mad or scared right now he really has nothing against Kurt what so-ever. I mean Kurt and him go way back (after all kurt was an addition to the team which he was originally part of) and whether he wants to admit it or not Kurt has been a GREAT addition. But he can whine to Kurt because Kurt won't take it harshly. But you don't see hims aying that to Logan do you? Or to Gambit or Storm, even Husk. Nope. He said it to kurt. Either the writers thought it'd be a nice twist or they both are aware that Kurt will let it slide. He's only talking out of his ass anyhoo.

[Garble]

Keep in mind that comic-time is really different from regular time. For the characters, the X-Men have only been around a few years.

When the X-Men first formed, Bobby was the youngest.

Now I don't know if everyone experienced this, but when I became a Sophmore in Highschool, I got really freaked out at how young and stupid the freshmen looked. On some level I think I resented them for taking my class's position as the new, fresh group. I think it might be a similar situation.

I think for Bobby, being one of the senior X-Men feels really strange and it pressures him to act more like a grown-up (something he just doesn't want to do).

[taekwondodo]

Some interesting insights and viewpoints on Bobby's character above. I actually haven't followed Uncanny until quite recently - I think one of the first issues I read had Bobby being found in a block of ice in the commercial freezer? Does that sound right. From what I've read in the Essential X-Men compilations and what's happened to him recently though, I can't really blame him if he's being a bit of a jerk lately. It's got to be pretty scary turning slowly into ice w/o the ability to stop it or turn back. I kind of wonder if anything's ever going to be done in the story to address his state of mind over this. He's a pretty young guy, has his whole life ahead of him - or not. As was said above, who's going to want to get close to an ice sculpture. Plus, he's always been a passer - and a pretty cute one at that - so it's got to be scary to face the fact that, the way things are currently progressing, he's well on his way to becoming a 24/7 visible freak. He may like Kurt well enough, but he's probably a pretty depressing reminder about now of what he (Bobby) has to look forward to in the not so distant future.

Before anyone says that's shallow and unfair to Kurt, just try and think about *actually* having to face something like that. It's *got* to be scary. The Prof needs to spend some serious time with poor Bobby, forget Lorna and her problems. She's screwed up, let it go. Try and help the poor Iceboy before he cracks under the pressure.

Then again, did the serious psychological trauma that Kurt *must* have suffered as a result of that whole deluded priest nightmare story arc ever get addressed in story? I'm starting to get the feeling that the trend is to seriously mess with the characters psychologically as well as physically and then drop it. They're super-heroes, they *must* be fine with it.

Oh well. Rantishness over.

[Warbird]

I think that I'm taking such a harsh stand on this becuase Bobby has never been one of my favorite X-Men *ducks from all the rocks about to be thrown*. I will give in enough to agree that he has been going through alot and has reason to be down, but I still think he's incapable of making personal changes to solve his problems. Now changing to ice completely, that does suck because he can't do anything about it. I just never felt that he was the type to help himself. But I do think that there is a tendancy to not fully resolve emotional issues in comics, but I think this is a step in the right direction. I love that there's so much going on with bobby emotionaly and I hope they fully resolve it.

[Lauren]

We need to complain and point out that they need to resolve things. Just because Kurt can take being yelled at, it doesn't mean it's ok! And just because bobby is usually nice and happy, doesn't mean you can screw him over with this sudden mutation! You can't abuse two men and let it slide like that!

[SheCat]

Uh, yes you can. It's comics. And I like the angsty stuffamagiggy.

Anyway, it makes them more realistic.

[taekwondodo]

Well, having angst might make them more realistic, but never addressing or resolving it doesn't really. Seems like writers just keep heaping these bizarre things on assorted characters and then move on to do something weird and dramatic to someone else. I guess wrapping things up and dealing with the aftermath isn't exciting enough or something. I don't know, I find it very unsatisfying.

Oop, okay! Done torturing Kurt and Bobby, must move on to Juggernaut now. Hmmm, got him royally messed up, time to f around with the Guthrie family....

It doesn't feel like any of the dramas, great or small, that were brought up in the last 8 issues or so have really been resolved, just abandoned and left hanging. Oh well, that might just be me. I'm not used to the medium and much as I love the basic premise and the characters, the 'wham, bam, thank you ma'am' speed with which comic-plots are introduced, 'developed' and (theoretically) resolved is quite confusing to me.

And I still feel really bad for poor Bobby. I hope that somewhere along the line the poor guy's problem is going to be addressed and resolved - and that in the mean time his friends will actually make an effort to be there for him.

[SheCat]

Agreeing with taekwondodo. We do need resolve in this. And though angst makes them fun (and gives great opportunities for my mindless fanfictions) it can't just be forgotten.

[Bamfette]

Originally posted by Lauren
We need to complain and point out that they need to resolve things. Just because Kurt can take being yelled at, it doesn't mean it's ok! And just because bobby is usually nice and happy, doesn't mean you can screw him over with this sudden mutation! You can't abuse two men and let it slide like that!

so you want... what? X-Men where they it around all day being nice to eachother and nothing ever happens to them unless it's good? i got one word for ya - *YAWN!*

and you NEED to complain? heh, you are severely over estemating the power of the internet. complaining here wont do a bit of good in terms of changing anything. :p

don't worry yerselves, it's going to be resolved...

[Ult_Sm86]

Jill no one is complaining here (at least not against Chuck) you don't have toput defenses up. We're simply saying that so much angst and anger was built up and it's just been dropped for the Draco series and Chuck usually doesn't do that he writes well he's intertwine those underdog stories but instead he's got x-men in hell and Juggy in canada, and xavier at home. No problems (except for Cain) no angst (except for cain) we want to see how Bobby gets better or if he even does. We want to see him accept the newbies and that Xavier has an open mind about people. We want to see him accept Juggernaut and Polaris and Stacy and we want to know what happens to kurt's feelings and also (mentioning stacy) what the heck happened to her! So jill we're not getting mad at chuck. He's still doing a bang up job.

[Bamfette]

i am not being defenseive... i am just pointing out, what she is askin for is unrealistic and BORING. it has nothing to do with chuck. it would be the same response if they were complaining about anything. buffy. 'why does Spike have to be a dick?' duh, cus it provided dramatic tension.

[taekwondodo]

Actually, what she's asking for isn't boring in the least to many of us. Unfortunately, we probably make up a miniscule segment of the comics-buying community. Which is why the comics are never going to replace literature on my personal list of hobbies - or fanfiction for that matter.

I love the basic premise of the X-Men and a large number of the characters, but the graphic format simply doesn't provide the kind of plot and character development that I'm really into. I'll continue reading some of the books just to keep in touch with the characters and their canon history as it develops, but for the most part they're just too darn shallow for me to sink my teeth into.

[Bamfette]

but the thing with X-Men and my point is... it has several hundred issues out. if it was just the characters, never changing, (which IS what Lauren claims to want) always being nice to eachother, always fighting the generic bbad guy d'jour, how many stories does that leave?

X-Men share a plesant breakfast at the mansion. uh-oh! they're being attacked. whoop bad guys ass. YAY!

X-Men share a pleasant pool party. uh-oh! bad guy is attacking New York. off they go. whoop bad guys ass. YAY!

X-Men share a pleasant afternoon doing... something... uh-oh! something's coming thru a dimensional portal! off tey go. whoop bad guys ass. yay....

etc. it's all been done ten times over. it's about time the characters saw some NEW form of internal conflict. some established characters got turned on their heads. didn't fight a generic bad guy every issue.

plus... adversity can make a person, or character in this case, stronger. Storm's mohawk days werent her most popular among her fans, but that period of her life saw her do some tremendous growth. she became a much stronger leader and character because of it.

[taekwondodo]

Actually, she didn't say you can't abuse them - where would be the fun in that - she said you "can't abuse them and let it slide..."

There's never any real resolution. Bad guy's defeated, on to the next crisis! It would be nice to actually see the personal issues that some of this angst raises directly adressed. That's probably why I *liked* the bit with Lorna in Draco - I liked seeing how what she's been through has affected her. Haven't seen that with anyone else since I started reading. Admittedly that's not long, but most of a year should have been enough time for *some* of that to happen. No one wants them to sit around having tea and reading self-help books, but there's precious little personal interaction going on in most of the issues I've seen, and most of its been pretty shallow. Admittedly, they're awfully short and a lot has to get crammed in there, but still....

To be honest, one of my favorite issues of any book so far was the Wolverine issue that had he and Kurt talking in the bar. It was nice to see the relationship and interaction. Unfortunately for me, comics are geared toward an audience that primarily wants a few good fight scenes, a fair amount of skin and a new super-villain or two as often as possible. As I said before, that means I'll keep following the comics to keep up with canon, but my primary pleasure in the X-Universe is probably still going to come from reading good fan-fiction. It's more my style. I will, however, keep hoping to see a little bit more of what I like occasionally - but I won't hold my breath.

[SheCat]

I think if the angst were gone I'd drop outta reading comics. It's the exact reason I love RoGambit and the Death and Anarchy Roadshow. Screwed up people with screwed up lives, but they do learn to deal with it. We get some great scenes from them.

Like TKD, my pleasure comes from fanfic (but not action, "Delve" fics that go into a character. And angst;)). However, more often than not Marvel must sow the seeds for angst ideas.

Angst is good, unresolved angst is annoying. If you have a piece with unresolved angst, follow it up. In the Holy War graphic novel, Annie said something about Chamber ("If you know anything about women, you know the most important thing is a man who can kiss!" ) and he overheard it. This didn't come up at all within the rest of the GN. Admittedly, I haven't read The Draco yet, but I felt cheated that they left me to wonder about Jono and his reaction. In my opinion, that should have been resolved or at least built on.

[Bamfette]

ok, fine we agree there. but i also said it WILL be resolved. i know it does not make a difference to readers, but there were some serious delays, and editorial changes/decrees, and it would have been resolved by now if not for that. but it WILL be resolved. comics arent like a novel or even a TV show simply because they onlly have 22 pages a month. it's normal for stories to drag on for years, just because there isn't enough pages a month to wrap it all up quickly. if you want complete stories for a read through in one sitting, i reccomend following the trades rather than the single issues. which is why Uncanny will be going bi-weekly from now on.