Nightcrawler sketch to be critiqued before i colour it

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:13 am

I started this drawing a while back, but something about it was bugging me, but i couldn't quite put my finger on it... so i stopped. thelinework isn't quitefinished, needs some refinement, but, anyway. have at it.:

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:27 am

The thing that sticks out to me is that the collar connects way to far down the back. It reminds me of EVO Toad's armor.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:32 am

hmmm... i know this is a critique, but. i disagree. i don't think his collar is a uniform height all the way around, that would be pretty much impossible. and i drew it that way on purpose. in my mind, it peaks downward in the back to match the peak upwards of the side/back panels. *points to the forum header*

NightPoofer · Post by **NightPoofer** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:54 am

I think it looks pretty good! Better than what I can usually draw. I think that the collar is fine. I know there's something that sticks out but I can't quite put my finger on it... Maybe it's the toes?

MabusRex · Post by **MabusRex** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:00 am

It's a nice try, Jill, but a lot of aspects of this pic feel awkward, specifically the pose. Trying to immitate it, I just can't get into the position without it feeling forced and somewhat even impossible. The figure's left arm in particular is TOO high up. With Kurt almost at a profile, his shoulder and arm should be at his nose (at the highest). It also apparently doesn't even have an elbow in it

The right seems unfinished. The forearm appears to even be missing or unfinished.

The right knee/leg is also awkwardly bent and the ankle is again practically missing. The back of the head seems too small, though that could be because it's mostly in shadow.

Personally, for the action of the position to really work (in my opinion), I'd move the arms almost parallel to each other, both hanging forward and out, maybe even angle the wrists and hands downward.

Now, with all the negativity out of the way, I have to say I do enjoy Kurt's face and general profile. The angular jawline and chin works well with the style of the piece. The hands themselves looks very good and correct, though he doesn't have any fingernails :p

Now, I'm NOT an artist. I haven't had formal schooling or classes so I might be REALLY off the mark with my comments. But I'm just noting what I feel were weak points to the picture that I think you'd need to work on in subsequent work.

sapphirescimitar · Post by **sapphirescimitar** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:15 am

I'm not an artist, so bear with me. This is what I thought needed fixing:

The tail seems a bit awkward. Kind of near the end, it looks as if it has been bent too much, and doesn't quite flow with the rest of the tail. It would be better if you made the tail curve a little more gradually.

I really like the hair, and the little curlets in it. But it looks sort of wonky with the shadowing from the collar.

Very close to the shirt area, on his pants, is a roll that seems a bit too big and roundish. If it was a little smaller, it would look more natural.

I like his facial expression, and there's nothing I see there that I would suggest changing.

Overall, you did a great job, and forced me to be very nit-picky. I hope I have been somewhat helpful. Good luck!

Winnowill · Post by **Winnowill** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:36 am

Not sure if anyone can reply, but here goes.
1) Mainly the shape of the right leg below the knee- since the muscles of one side are being stretched, they shouldn't be so evenly shaped- here's a ballet pic that kind of shows what I mean. http://maya.wplus.net/korsunts.JPG
2) Back of head looks like it needs more depth, maybe push the shadowing back a bit?
3) Like the width of the tail close to the body, but it seems to taper too quickly- perhaps it could be longer?
4) Just being picky so it looks perfect, so I'll say that the left shin bone looks a bit concave, should be straighter.
( Especially like the left foot and hand shapes. I find the arms pleasing, and think the longer tail would give the figure a beautiful full circle shape. Didn't notice anything to be changed in the costume.)

Garble · Post by **Garble** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:56 am

Good Points
Nice facial expression. Communicates very well, a sence of tension and determination.

I really like the detailed way you treat clothing. The wrinkles, folds, and all the ways the uniform reacts (and doesn't react) to his body make the whole drawing seem that much more tangible.

Anatomy and proportions are overall excellent.

Not-so-good Points
Pose: While the pose is nice and dymanic, it could be a little confusing. A lot of the curving lines suggest he's being thrown backwards more than it suggests leaping forward. When leaping, Kurt would naturally try to make his body as aerodymanic as possible. In this pose, Kurt would have an easier time traveling backwards than forwards. The tail being curled in front of him suggests that as well.

Anatomy: There are a few problems here. The hands and right foot have somewhat of a doughy quality to them, while the left foot is angular and wooden.
It could be the line, but it looks like his lower right leg has a strange bend to it.
The left knee seems to jut out strangely while the calve is squashed beneath the thigh.

Layout Choices: I understand that the tail is meant to overlap itself, but instead it sort of looks like it's got a strange bend to it, like it's broken. Also, whenever a connecting part of the body is completely obscured, it creates a sense of detachment. We all know where Kurt's tail connects but based on this drawing you could imagine that it comes out of his knee or is a separate form entirely.
There's a similar issue with his right hand. With foreshortening, it's a good idea to use joined layers to create connection as well as depth. There's no indication of his forearm, so you could almost imagine a giant hand coming straight out of his elbow. The inclusion of his forearm or even some cuff of his sleave would help this.

Just personal quip
Something about his hair seems strange, like it looks like it's been permed. Maybe it's the way it curves slightly then curls at the end... It also looks like there's strange tuft sticking out of the back of his head.

Overall
I really like this drawing, Jill. In spite of a few issues, it's a strong drawing that stands well in it's simplicity. It's dynamic, fluid and does a good job in creating a sense of motion. There's some really nice diversity in the line thickness. Although this drawing has some style inconsistency, I happen to know that you can do a really compelling balance in stylization and representationalism.

I also just enjoy your interpretation of Kurt's appearance, build and energy.

Snicket · Post by **Snicket** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:07 am

Well, I AM an artist, so maybe I can add a few things:

1. The big thing that bothers me is the arms. His left arm looks too short and like it has no elbow. His right arm looks more stumpish than foreshortened, which is what I'm sure you were going for.

2. This has already been mentioned, but his right leg. It looks almost broken, the way it twists. And his left leg looks a little too skinny in the thigh area.

3. His head looks too big to me. I understand that larger heads can be a part of someone's style -- I prefer larger heads myself -- but it just looks awkward here. Then again, this may be an optical illusion created by his scrunched-up pose. It's kind of hard to tell. I leave the final judgment to you.

4. The cloth on the pants looks pretty natural, but the shirt folds don't really look right. Use the stress points to determine how the clothes will fall and stretch instead of arbitrarily adding folds.

5. This is a small quibble, but the inking on the tail. Why is it so thick in comparison to the rest of the body? I don't see any reason for it, and it's kind of distracting. Try to take weight and light more into account when inking your sketches.

Overall, I think it's a pretty good little drawing, but I'd advise you to study anatomy and cloth folds. Dynamic Anatomy, Dynamic Figure Drawing, and Dynamic Wrinkles and Drapery by Burne Hogarth would be good books to use as resources for this. In fact, all the Dynamic drawing books are great reference for any artist, especially a cartoonist who draws mostly from the imagination. I really need to buy my own copies.

Hope I helped.

RavenRyo · Post by **RavenRyo** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:33 pm

Wow. This is very good! I haven't quite gotten the inking process down, but im working on that. There's a few things I noticed(they might have been mentioned.) The extended leg looks unattached at the ball. Perhaps if you tilt it a little bit more under his spinal-line it would work. His left arm might look a bit better with a bend at the elbow. It would look longer.

Other than these, It is a very nice pic!

bluefooted · Post by **bluefooted** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:28 pm

I'm not an artist, but I'll add my two cents...

I agree with most of the comments above, except:
1. I don't agree that the folds on the uniform need to be re-worked. I like the stiff look they have - it really conveys the idea that the uniform is leather (or some other, non-drapey material). I also really like the way he sort of 'floats' in his uniform!
2. The 'kink' in the tail and it's overall thickness strike me more as stylistic aspects to the drawing than as flaws. I think they add to the overall 'feel' of the work (sorry that's so vague).

That's all I got, folks.

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:48 pm

I want to do a full critique, but it'll have to wait until tonight; I'm at work. So a quickie:

1. Try mirroring the image -- the anatomical quirks are always more noticeable with just the merest application of "flip horizontal."

2. I agree that he's missing fullness in the back of the head.

3. I am totally freaked out by his resemblance to Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

I love the action and the rendering of the uniform. Cheers!

sevati · Post by **sevati** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:54 pm

I can't really add much beyond what's been pointed out, but I can try to further the crit in those areas. (I took Art 1-4 in high school and did not fail, but by no means am I a real artist :p )

The inking on Kurt's tail is way too thick and looks like my dog's (and the vet thought he broke his tail and it never healed properly). The collar looks a tad bit oversized, but the fact that you've shaded in Kurt's hair already could be preventing me from where his neck ends and negative shadow area/his hair begins. You know, just tricking my eyes?

Kurt's right foot looks a bit.. odd. It looks like there's a 3rd toe that's curled all the way under his sole. Do the following with your hand, since it's got around the same flexibility as Kurt's foot: make your thumb and pinky overlap under your palm; point out your index finger and bend your middle finger slightly; put the fingertip of your ring finger on top of your tumbnail. See how your ring finger makes a little nub that looks like a 3rd finger starting? I realize the south-western point of the side of the foot could be the last knuckle of the 2nd toe... but it looks a little to big for that, especially since the 2nd toe looks to be turned away and the 1st toe is up front.

Kurt's right arm looks too short. While it is directly in front of the viewer, it seems too small compared to the other hand (I can see the sizing difference that goes along with the difference in area perspectives, but it doesn't look big enough to be that far in front). However, when it is colored with shadows and such, I figure it will look more natural. That right on straight-on perspective is hard to properly draw and shade, and I wish you well at it.

Snicket · Post by **Snicket** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:56 pm

In reply to bluefooted:

1. Stiffness is one thing. That makes sense with the costume. However, what I see here is not stiffness in the folds. The way the costume is reacting doesn't make visual sense. Get somebody to wear a stiff jacket and crouch like that, and it would look much different.

2. It could be a stylistic choice, but if it is, it's an awkward one. If the tail is going to have that thick of an outline, it would make sense for the rest of him to, also. Otherwise, it's still distracting.

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:32 pm

Originally posted by Snicket
I'm going to be making a living at this sort of thing in a few years. I should hope that I know what I'm talking about.

Snicket, I think you give great feedback. I have some feedback on it, though.

Please measure your tone. Even professional artists need to be polite, and when someone disagrees with your opinion, it's bad form to pull the "I'm a real artist and you're not" card. Some of the best critiques I've ever gotten have been from non-artists.

Thanks!

Snicket · Post by **Snicket** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:03 pm

That's not the way I meant it, MWP. I'm sorry you took it that way. I may be a little short-tempered lately due to stress at school, but I wasn't trying to be rude. Sorry if I sounded like I was being "holier-than-thou". I can assure you that I'm not.

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:35 pm

Fair enough; if that wasn't your intent, please just ensure you're a little more moderate in future. We can all be honest without being harsh.

Man, do I wish I was redlining right now. *checks watch*

Snicket · Post by **Snicket** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:31 pm

S'all right. No harm done. I hope bluefooted didn't take it the wrong way.

Darkstalker · Post by **Darkstalker** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:47 pm

The foreshortening of the one arm closest to us is a little weird, it seems like there should be more of his arm, although I haven't quite gotten the hang of it either. Also his face should be slightly turned more towards a 3/4 view('cause it looks a little flat and doesn't seem to fit) and it's not a big deal, but I think you should uncross the toes on the one foot. BTW, what program are you using to get such a bold outline? I always outline my pics with a pen before I scan, and the lines are always a little crooked. What do you reccomend? I have Paintshop Pro 8 by the way.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:24 pm

Photoshop. it was entirely drawn in Photoshop. and it is not finished, either. there is a lot of linework that neds tweaking and thickening (going for very very bold linework) and black areas of shadow that i have not yet added.

Snicket, i have to agree with Maddie's comment. you may be making a living at this in a few years, but I AM making a living at it RIGHT NOW. I went to art college for years. I went to Sheridan College's world renowned Classical Animation program. don't play that card with me. even professional and college trained artists are capable of error, and have stylistic elements that others may not like. granted this drawing is actually pretty OLD... done and then abandoned (aside from tweaking a couple details of his costume to match the current one) while i was still in college*cough*last year*cough* :p but whatever.

that being said, the tail inking is a stylistic thing and the rest WILL MATCH when done. the rest is just... not thickened up yet. i am going for very very bold lines with this one. stylistic choice. same with the tail kink... i mean i can see what you guys are saying, but, i dunno, i always draw his tail like that. it's a thing with me, it may not appeal to everyone, but... eh. it's mine. i would even consider it a signature with my Kurt drawings. i don't see it as an error per se.

folds on the cloth in the chest area, i can see, but not on the middle area. anatomy suggestions i will try and incorporate

thanks

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:38 pm

Originally posted by Snicket
S'all right. No harm done.

You misunderstand me. I'm not apologising for reading you wrong; I'm telling you how you do come across and, as a moderator, asking you to change that.

And Bamfette, it hasn't been said enough in this thread, but this piece is dynamic and compelling. I notice that when a higher level piece gets critted, people forget there is a person attached. Not to turn this into a gushing thread -- just a reminder that part of critique is letting someone know what they did right.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:00 pm

*comes fashionably late as always*
I think i'm not qualified enough to make a critic and also i'm the kind of person than likes to wait for the final result and then procedes to talk.
Jill: I'll be waiting with anxiety to see the final result and then proceed to talk, you know i'm one of your biggest fans.

..and Guys:Having the right knowledge is good..but there's a delicate line between doing a good critic being honest, using the right words and the right tone and just being cocky and arrogant.
lets not cross the line, shall we?
i believe than when you become more wise and experienced you also become more humble.

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:43 am

Kay, here's my redline, based on some of the suggestions I saw above, and my own observations:

Bigger head, an elbow in the foreground, adjustments to the knee. I personally like the un-elbowed arc on the background arm; it's sassy. I think the background arm is a bit short, though.

I also personally like the crink in the tail. I do question the placement of the tail in front, however. He's got a very definite sense of forward motion, and the tail curving before him seems to compete with that impression.

Hope this lends some ideas to the cause!

Snicket · Post by **Snicket** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:46 am

Okay, I've been totally misinterpreted in this thread, so I believe that I'm just going to bow out quietly.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:29 am

THANK YOU MADDIE! I knew the front arm was off, but wasn't entirely sure how to fix it, either. you know how you get caught up in one way of doing something, and you are so caught up getting that one way to work, you don't see other solutions? perfect. i will consider moving the tail as well, you have a point. though i do like him better facing the original direction as it (to my mind) reads better that way.

and i read my posts now and they come off as a bit defensive. i just want to say, that, i have gone through a lot of crits in two art colleges, and all i can say is, they encouraged me to defend my vision. just because someone doesn't like something, does not mean it is 'wrong.' certian things it may be, sure, but not always. and an artist is not obligated to follow every bit of advice. just because i may not follow all the advice presented here, does not mean i do not appreciate it.

thanks to everyone. I wil be back wiht a modified pic in a bit.