New X-Men General Discussion

mightiest_mortal · Post by **mightiest_mortal** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:56 pm

Ive not been enjoying Planet X as much as the rest of Morisons run. Just doesnt click with me. Though the latest issue was getting back on track. [spoiler]YAY XORNS BACK!! .....kind of

Magneto really has gone completely insane this time though hasn't he[/spoiler]

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:07 am

i am with ya there... ever since the Weapon Plus arc began... ho-hum. it just hasn't held my interest. i got really bored with it, i don't think i even read last issue, i bought it, but i never get around to reading it, i just don't care anymore. kind of a shame because i REALLY like Riot and some of the others a lot. which is why i still get it, i have faith it will get better... and the preview in wizard helped support that.

BartSimpson · Post by **BartSimpson** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:08 pm

Bamfette, can you tell us if Jean/Phoenix will be around for all the new restructuring of the x-books after New X-Men 154? Thanks.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:20 pm

if you've read the preview in Wizard, you'd know the answer to that

[spoiler]no, she wont. she dies, and Scott and Emma end up a couple.[/spoiler]

BAMFCentral · Post by **BAMFCentral** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:46 pm

Say it aint so. I read your spoiler but didn't see that coming. It sounds interesting, but just wrong

anthomaniac1023 · Post by **anthomaniac1023** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:47 pm

Is that not the saddest thing ever? Oh well, at least its Morrison writing it.

BartSimpson · Post by **BartSimpson** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:09 pm

nooooo. Bamfette, I had read the preview, but I was hoping it was only temporary and that she would be around afterwards. Oh my gosh...sigh...
thanks for the reply though.

Northstars Love · Post by **Northstars Love** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:21 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
if you've read the preview in Wizard, you'd know the answer to that [spoiler]no, she wont. she dies, and Scott and Emma end up a couple.[/spoiler]

Read it Jill. Cool arc...but

[spoiler]a Phoenix dies only to be reborn again. So I doubt this will be the end of Jean. And I would like to see Scott and Emma further as well.[/spoiler]

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:22 am

ok, well...[spoiler] i happen to know for a fact that it is permanent atleast up until the point that Morrison leaves. sorry...[/spoiler]

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:36 am

That is very sad

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:58 pm

Originally posted by Bamfette
ok, well...[spoiler] i happen to know for a fact that it is permanent atleast up until the point that Morrison leaves. sorry...[/spoiler]

I'm betting she'll [spoiler] Stay dead for a couple of years, and then be ressurected to coincide with the release of X3, which has all but been confirmed to be the Phoenix Saga [/spoiler]

msgt · Post by **msgt** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:31 pm

[spoiler] A lot of us were thinking that Jean would hatch out of the egg and set things right. We expect her to rise again at the end of the Future Arc.

Morrison said that the last story was about the responsibilities of those who weild the Phoenix.

Also wasn't it said that no one dies in New but they just change. Does Jean just change or evolve or is she just dead?

What about her disinfection? Does this happen in 150 or in the future?

I'm curious as to how she dies in 150 (I mean she lived through going into the Sun).

[/spoiler]

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:16 pm

[spoiler] Morrison is paralelling earlier stories with a new twist. sometimes adding things, sometimes leaving things out, sometimes changing circumstnaces, but the end result is the same. Jean going into the sun with Wolverine can be paralleled with her in the space shuttle shielding all the others from radiation, but on a larger scale. she survived that, but when all was said and done, she had the Phoenix powers. or was replaced with the Phoenix entity. or whatever. this will likely raise her to a new power level, then later... well, you guess what happens

I know, but can't say. but it really isn't all THAT hard to figure out if you keep in mind the whole distorted mirror image of previous stories thing... how did Jean die the first time? what is the 'egg' like?[/spoiler]

i probably should have said 'wouldn't be available' for the new writing teams, because if Morrison writes it the way msgt says, she will still [spoiler]be dead for like a hundred years before she is next resurrected, even if that resurrection happens next arc, it is in the distant future.[/spoiler]

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:55 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
i probably should have said 'wouldn't be available' for the new writing teams, because if Morrison writes it the way msgt says, she will still [spoiler]be dead for like a hundred years before she is next resurrected, even if that resurrection happens next arc, it is in the distant future.[/spoiler]

But future stories are not absolute. Much like M2 and DOFP I think this timeline will also be seen as a "Divergent, possible future" No "Big Money" character stays dead for that long. I'm still sticking by my X3 theory on the matter.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:57 pm

I knew it ! I knew [spoiler]Jean Grey would bite the dust ![/spoiler]
You see, that's why I can't enjoy Morrison's work anymore.

. Assault on Weapon Plus = Weapon X
. Planet X = I, Magneto + the dark phoenix saga [spoiler]with approximately the same ending : the dead Jean Grey[/spoiler]
. His future story = Days of future past

It seems to me he just re-writes the biggest Claremont stories. I'm not against the death of big characters, but [spoiler]not always the same ones ! [/spoiler]
It's sad, because I really think Morisson can concieve powerful plots.

Anyway, let's see how the new writer will handle this team's future.

nightcrawler30 · Post by **nightcrawler30** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:43 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
if you've read the preview in Wizard, you'd know the answer to that [spoiler]no, she wont. she dies, and Scott and Emma end up a couple.[/spoiler]

i haven't been reading new x-men, but i did mange to read the preview in wizard [spoiler] what is with all the nighties?[/spoiler]

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:19 am

dominant species theme

nightcrawler30 · Post by **nightcrawler30** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:52 am

Originally posted by Nightcrawler ZERO
dominant species theme

ok! thanks that really helps out!:):bamf

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:37 am

:mags:
Morrison has occasionally come up with interesting ideas...he just totally flubs the execution of those ideas because
1. He cannot or will not accept constructive criticism and editing.
2 He does not or will not do research on the characters he is trashing...and he doesn't even take notes on what He HAS DONE... so there are contradictions of even his own continuity...and this is just lazyness...or inattention...or a wandering mind...or all of the above.
3 He creats plotlines, takes them so far and then refuses to resolve them and leaves them hanging for others to reconcile when he is bored with them or can't figure out a way to get out of a corner he has painted himself into because of shortsightedness. This is why , among other reasons, his writing is so fractured. Editing would help...others could see what he is doing and say "Uhhh...Grant, this needs dealing with..or where are yougoing with this ..cuz you just dropped it in midair..." that's what an editor DOES! An editor brings a fresh viewpoint and points out glitches...then puts wide angle specs on the writer, so he can see the whole picture...not just the single thread he is obcessed with just at the moment. but Morrison won't allow his stuff to be edited...or even to speak with editors! What kind of hubris is this? Every writer needs a good editor! Of course, the caveat there is GOOD editor.

The Planet X arc was dreadful. Totally without social or literary value. A lot of die hard Magneto fans are enraged. A lot of die hard Jean fans will be enraged after this next issue.

Morrison has wantonly trashed the core reason for the X books.. the dialectic between Xavier and Magneto. He has destroyed both characters, as well as others..long standing faves, like Jea/Phoenix...just so the future can be populated by HIS creations...CN and the Scott/Emma combo...cuz he modelled Emma from his girlfriend...so Jean had to go so he could pair Scott with her...and it seems that he has carried it over to this future arc.
The world according to the great god morrison...
drek
and not even well written ...for all of the above reasons.

The whole last arc...and I mean Planet X... needs to be retconned out of existance...because it is SO destructive of the Marvel shared Universe...and because it makes no sense whatsoever in regard to that shared Universe.
Is the mansion and the city destroyed in the other X books? Not that I can see... Is the city destroyed in the other Marvel boods like Spider Man, FF, Daredevil, Iron Man...etc, etc...? I doubt it. If anything like this happens in those books, will someone clue us in? But I don't expect to hear of wholesale destruction and crematoria in the center of Manhattan! So...obviously, this didn't hjappen in the Marvel Universe...so it has to be a fever dream, alternate reality or some such...cuz the MarvelU...rolls on. As per their mandate. As per the description of the company to the securities and exchange commission.

They may be jumping around at Marvel like long tailed cats in a room full of rocking chairs...trying to figure out a way to rationalize this arc. But there is no way. It has to be disposed of if the shared Universe which is part of Marvels corporate identity is to be maintained.
Morrison has screwed not just the X fans and the X characters, he has put the hurtin on the whole Marvel corporate identity with this little snide diversion. He has not just said FU to the fans, he has said FU to Marvel Comics ...those who love it, those who want it to succeed and become strong and vital again.
There is no excuse for this.It is wanton , evil destruction.
American comics have always been upbeat and positive...even in their darkest hours. This influx of British cynicism and gothic thinking may be tantalizing for a while..but in the end it besmirtches all the golden promise of the comics genre that has evolved in America. Not all British writers are like this..Neil Gaiman's Sandman stuff was brilliant. I am reading his 1602 with interest...especially since it is, in the Gaiman tradition, not destructive of continuity of the larger ongoing storylines. Gaiman has a regard for the industry that i do not see in Morrison. but then, Gaiman can WRITE! He doesnn't need shock value and arrogant "My way or NO way" Byrne-esque thinking.

I willnot buy the next four issues of New. i urge others not to waste their money. I am probably doomed to failure in this regard, since habit is a hard thing to ignore...even if the habit is destructive.
I will wait patiently for Chuck Austen and Chris Claremont...both excellent writers... to fix this dreadful mess. And only then will I return to buying this book.

And I do not think for a moment that when Chris takes over Uncanny, that he won't use jean/Phoenix! So much for future drek timelines...
Ha!
paty
:mags:

solomon · Post by **solomon** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:00 pm

All right! My first post! Hope I don't get banned...

On Morrison, if it were his own characters, I'd dig it. Problem is that they aren't. They were written by someone else and already had established history, which I feel like he didn't honor.

Somehow, I have a problem with sentinels sneaking virtually undetected into the most powerful mutant nation and wiping it out like nothing. It irked me as an unnecessary waste. If they really wanted to stick a craw up Xavier's rear, it would have been better for Genosha to be a complete success and the split between mutants and "flatscans" to heal itself naturally as they were forced to deal with each other. The point is moot, now, seeing as how most everyone is radioactive dust.

For reasons Paty already explained, Planet X is crap. Yes, Magneto is crazy, but since when did he need kick to destroy New York City? Did Morrison have a clue just how powerful Magneto is? The guy messed up the electromagnetic spectrum of the entire planet. His clone - in an admittedly terribly written mini - created a ship just by pulling metals out of the ground. The guy doesn't have a clue.

Jean not being able to fly herself and Wolverine out of the sun. More BS. There's an issue of X-Men Unlimited where Carol Danvers' (as Binary) powers go out of control, basically creating a White Dwarf. Jean Grey - not as Phoenix... no raptor... no oxygen tank - flies out into space and stabilizes it. This was a Lobdell-era Jean Grey (I don't think Lobdell wrote it.. I can't remember...). The Jean Grey Morrison is writing is allegedly WAY more powerful and skilled than that Jean Grey. And she can't fly them out of the sun? I'm still trying to figure out how Magneto could set up a trap in Earth's orbit that would send them 93 million miles in less than 24 hours...

And how in the world did he get away with giving Emma a British accent? I could be wrong, but I'm very sure Emma's was born and raised in New England. (Boston, I think.) In 20+ years of continuity, she never once faked a British accent or tried to pass off, and now she's... ugh...

And the way I feel right now, I look at this guy and think that he could write really well... but chose not to... and it doesn't look like to me that he plays nice with the other X-Writers.

Don't get me wrong. As an artist, I'm all for artistic freedom and expression. CC's failed return to the X-Books seemed more like last-minute marketing-influenced editorial interference than a hack job. I know others may not disagree, but I don't see any writer starting up a story (the Neo) and in the middle of it, completely forgetting it and setting the two X-Men groups to face off each other. Yeah, CC can leave some danglers, but I don't see him dropping things such as "Pheonix/Psylocke switch" and Kitty's attitude change and not having any reason or story for it.

With GM, I see this as a case of the artist (be it writer, penciller, musician, etc.) running completely amok and defying any constraints whatsoever. This is the other side of the spectrum from CC or the Kelly/Seagle fiasco. As any good artist knows, you have to know the rules to be able to break them. You can't just throw them out the window and do what you want. GM should have been made to follow the rules, rather than dictate what they are.

My opinion.

Nomad X · Post by **Nomad X** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:43 pm

Normally, I hate the idea of stories being retconned... if you can't do a story without changing something a previous writer did, you don't need to be doing that story... In this case, however, I'd have no problem with Austen or Claremont or any other writer saying "it never happened" (note: Morrison's run is the ONLY set of stories EVER done that I wouldn't mind being retconned)... This entire arc was, well, boring and made little sense... except for #150... which made me want to hit the guy at the comic book shop for not warning me not to read the issue...

The only redeeming thing I've seen since he took over as writer have been the Stepfords... Off hand, I can't think of any other existing hive-mind telepaths... They are an interesting direction to go with psychic powers...

I've always seen Cyclops as a soldier fighting for somebody else's dream... He was a strategist and therefore had to stay in control. He's always had emotions, but has buried them out of necessity as the team leader... the only time the character has ever actually left a woman was when he learned Jean was back from the dead... other than that, Cyclops has never been one to cheat on his girlfriend/wife (He even managed to resist Psylocke's advances... how many people could do that?!?!?)... Morrison has successfully reduced him into a sulking, depressing womanizer...

Emma has always been a temptress... she knows what she wants and uses all her skills, talents and looks to dangle a carrot in front of people until they give her whatever it is she's after... the outfits she's worn has always been part of that... if you had a body like hers and walked into a boardroom full of men while wearing a jacket, miniskirt and little else, I promise you, any proposal you made would be accepted and passed in a heart beat... Now, she's been reduced to nothing more than a tramp wiggling her butt and boobs in front everybody just to get attention...

Yeah, you get my point... With only one exception, I'm not happy with Morrison's entire run...

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:17 am

*An evil cackle fills the halls...*

And BOOYAH! Its time for your favorite outlaw with wings to swoop in and give a big "wtf??" are you guys talking about?

In a word... amazing. Simply amazing. Actually, there was very little that was simple about it. This book represents what I believe to be the best-written and most complex introspective of Magneto as a character since Claremont's XM #1-3.

Seriously, all you guys who like to worship Magneto or say what a great person he was... where did you think he'd end up? The man had initially pure intentions, but he sought them out through violence and oppression. He didn't want to stand side by side with mutantkind, he wanted to lord over them. Its only fitting that after years and years and YEARS of immersing himself into this stance, that he'd evolve into nothing more than the dictators he preached against. I love it, that they tell him the worst thing he could've ever done was come back. He had been a martyr, a symbol... but in trying to regain his past glory, he came across as a raving fool that nearly destroyed both humanity, and mutantkind as well.

Meanwhile, Cyclops and company storm in and take Magneto out in style. I love it. How anyone can call Cyclops one dimensional in the face of his actions this issue is simply beyond me. He nearly lost it all in Weapon Plus, only to take it back when he needed to. Its a case of meeting the need head on, and he BRINGS it to Magneto, who would've been taken down right there if "the great lord and savior- Phil Hunn (love ya man

)" hadn't played dirty. Fantomex was used wonderfully too. He did his job, was cool about it, but wasn't obnoxious either.

All and all, I'm amazed, and I can't wait to see what comes of this ending. Something affected the entire universe apparently... I really want to see what happens with this.

EDIT: Not too long ago a post of mine was deleted for saying an Austen story "sucked"... how is calling Morrison's story "crap" any different... out of curiosity?

Sorte Springer · Post by **Sorte Springer** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:58 am

I still think turning Magneto into a two dimentional maniac is a bad idea.
Winged Outlaw points out that Magnetos development would be natural considering the things he have done in his career as a super villain.
I am not saying that it could not be seen as a natural development. It´s just so that Magneto is a comic book super villain, and a very importent thing thing about comic book super villains is that they should be able to appear in the stories again and again.

If Magneto is as evil as he is portrayed in New X-men, the urge to see him again in the X-men comics somehow in the future fades drastically.
Of course he must be the antagonist, and he must dangerous. But when he is just a downright @$$hole, it isn´t funny anymore.
I feel the same way about every insinuation made in the comics about Sabretooth being a rapist.

Super villains are not mere analogies for particular types of criminals. Magneto can not simply be translated into "dictator-head-of-rogue-nation-that has-the-negative-attention-of-the-western-world".

He is an achetype of reaching goals by using force, "the end justfy the means" thinking. His way of thinking can be found in all societies, on different levels. He is a fairy tale figure, in a modern fairy tale.

I dont like him being ruined like that.

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:28 pm

Ok- here's my 2 cents:

First off, I liked a lot of what Morrison did at the beggining of his run. He wrote a few great stories and had some excellent ideas. For his work to have descended so far in so short of a time, it seems to me that he has grown bored, and is just messing with stuff for the sake of entertaining himself. I wish this weren't the case, but it seems like the only reason for this to me.

One of the ideas that Morrison had that should have been continued in this arc is the one that began with the attacks on Genosha. Magneto and Xavier balanced each other out, and when Magneto was gone, the X-Men became more aggressive, more focused on mutant survival, and morer convincwed of their own superiority. For this plotline to work, Magneto would have had to come back more like Xavier was, peaceable and idealistic. To come back more extreme than the X-Men ruins the balance that morrison himself illustrated at the begining of his arc.

Another thing that just doesn't work is Magneto being a frothing at the mouth, psychotic maniac. Many of you argued that this is the natural progression of his character, but once again, it doesn't line up with what Morrison has established. If MAgneto could pull off the Xorn disguise for so long, as well as be responsible for every bad thing that happened during Morrison's run, it would take a calm, rational Magneto, completely in control of is mind and powers, rather than what we were shown in this arc.

Yeah- and as for Fantomex- I actually mark his appearance as the beggining of the end for Morrison's run. Notice that his best work didn't include this character, while his worst included every last appearance of him? It's for the simple fact that he is the one thing that all good fanfic writers avoid. Think about it. A female favorite of Morrison's has the hots for him.........he can handle threats that experienced X-men can't handle in a matter of seconds.... he's a combination of every "Cool" character ever created..... draws on weapons from other fandoms........... Sounds a tad bit like a Mary-Sue to me..............................

Nightcrawler_o63 · Post by **Nightcrawler_o63** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:10 pm

Marvel Comics has provided The Continuum with preview images of New X-Men #152, part of the "Here Comes Tomorrow" arc by Grant Morrison and Marc Silvestri running in New X-Men #151-154.

Here's how Marvel describes the story: "Society has crumbled, the human race is all but decimated, and mutants have evolved far beyond their imagined potential. But throughout the years, the dream of one man long dead still remains true - that of Professor Charles Xavier ... that of the X-Men!"

New X-Men #151 arrive in stores on Jan. 7, with New X-Men #152 due on Jan. 21

Guess who's on the cover?