Uncanny X-Men General Discussion

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:14 pm

I don't know if I'm allowed to say anything that isn't praise of Austen here, but I take it that it is allowed...

I kinda hope to see CC return to the title. Chuck Austen hasn't done a stellar job on the title in my eyes, his work on Nightcrawler is dissapointing to me, since it appears to revolve around turning back the clock five or more years, and giving his parentage a rather unnecesairy and somewhat convoluted twist.

I liked how CC had Kurt studying to be a priest, it progressed his character, opened up a new window of opportunities for the character, and it gave him an extra edge that was unseen in the Marvel Universe, or at least the X-universe.

CC didn't dwell in the past with the character, he moved him forward into the future. I liked that.

Icey · Post by **Icey** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15 pm

Sal revealed that the Angel like mutant on the cover is actually Joshua Guthrie, brother of Paige.

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:24 am

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I don't know if I'm allowed to say anything that isn't praise of Austen here, but I take it that it is allowed...

We don't mind criticism of any creator here, so long as that's all it is. Professional criticism is fine, and encouraged. So long as you speak your mind maturely, keep your comments related to the creator's work, and respect those who disagree, you should be fine.

You've handled your criticism maturely, and that's all we ask.

Archangel · Post by **Archangel** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:13 am

The Angel like dude on the coven any news if hell be sticking around for any length of time...

Dreams of all the new winged mutants... Jillian Azral's sevant dude!!! *Dreams's* and do you know what his code name will be and what his powers will be besides wings? and most likly no body fat and hollow bones

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:24 am

I'm guessing he won't be a member of the X-Men- Chuck mentioned in an interview that Warren would eventually lead a race of Angel Mutants. He's most likely one of these guys.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:32 am

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I don't know if I'm allowed to say anything that isn't praise of Austen here, but I take it that it is allowed...

of course it's allowed... despite what's being implied or said ourtright elsewhere at the moment *cough*cx-fan*cough* all we ask is you don't be an ass about it, nor are disrespectful about created works and others opinions, and talk like your opinion is law of the universe. (not saying you are, just saying what it is that we don't allow)

I guess i can see where it coes from, since i am a fan and friend of Chuck's AND an administrator here. but that doesn't mean my opinions are anything but that - opinions. and i will defend them. I am nothing if not stubborn. just because i am an administrator here doesn't mean my opinions are the ones everyone has to conform to. i like to participate in discussions like anyone else.

though i still don't get the whole fanboy rant mentality (not saying this is you... and i admit, i was guilty of it in the past... it was entertaining. and it took me seeing someone i care for, a good person who cared about what he did, being utterly torn apart to come to this realization completely). you don't like something. fine. but why go on and on and on about it? it accomplishes NOTHING. it's not like it can be taken back! and complaining about an in progress storyline... agian, accomplishes nothing. even if the editors or writer saw your complaints, these stories are written and drawn, totally FINISHED, atleast 2 months before they are released, with the odd rush case where the art was late or something. i mean, Uncanny 437 has 10 preview pages in Previews right now. 437! it comes out in January! so complaining about it wont do any good. (agian, saying you don't like it, fine... it's when it becomes a RANT, and MEAN, and you NEVER SHUT UP about it that it eludes me) and trust me, the editors WONT pay attention to you, no matter HOW loudly you complain or how many of you there are. it's all about sales. bottom line. vote with your wallet and drop it, it's the only way you can affect anything.

i mean, i don't like some books out there... but what i do is after i discover they arent for me, i don't read them. less money for me to spend, and i don't have to read something i don't like. and therefore they don't bother me, and i don't feel the need to complain about em. there are obviously those out there who DO like em, so i let them do so in peace. it's not like books are being published to please me and me alone, and i realize that....

that said, i disagree with your opinion, i thought the whole priest thing was a mistake from the beginning, and in my eyes, it produced an exceptionally DULL 'Crawler... i am glad it is over with.

... and why is everyone assuming the characters are tied to the titles they are currently in? they never have been in the past when creative teams are changed... if CC gets Uncanny, that doesn't mean he gets the current Uncanny cast. he gets whoever he wants to write/whoever the editors allow him to write. it *could* be some characters currently in Uncanny, but just as likey it could be totally different, maybe even characters not starring in any X-Books at all currently. Nightcrawler could be starring in New after this, for all we know.

but welcome

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:41 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
though i still don't get the whole fanboy rant mentality (not saying this is you... and i admit, i was guilty of it in the past... it was entertaining. and it took me seeing someone i care for, a good person who cared about what he did, being utterly torn apart to come to this realization completely). you don't like something. fine. but why go on and on and on about it? it accomplishes NOTHING. it's not like it can be taken back! and complaining about an in progress storyline... agian, accomplishes nothing. even if the editors or writer saw your complains, these stories are written and drawn, totally FINISHED, atleast 2 months before they are released, with the odd rush case where the art was late or something. i mean, Uncanny 437 has 10 preview pages in Previews right now. 437! it comes out in January! so complaining about it wont do any good. (agian, saying you don't likeit, fine... it's when it becomes a RANT, and MEAN, and you NEVER SHUT UP about it that it eludes me) and trust me, the editors WONT pay attention to you, no matter HOW loudly you complain or how many of you there are. it's all about sales. bottom line. vote with your wallet and drop it, it's the only way you can affect anything.

But there is also the reverse. You emphasize the negative, will you are silent about the other ens of the spectrum. In order for discussion you need differing viewpoints. You can hate with a passion and a vigour unseen before, but you can also be blind to whatever fault there is to a piece of work, and defend it untill blood comes from your eyes.
Basically bashing is something frowned upon, but the other end of the spectrum, while usually wrapped in silence, is just as bad.

Editors don't read negative reviews, anymore than they read positive reviews.

that said, i disagree with your opinion, i thought the whole priest thing was a mistake from the beginning, and in my eyes, it produced an exceptionally DULL 'Crawler... i am glad it is over with.

I quite enjoyed it. It was a definate step forward, the X-books are about progress, evolution, going forward into the future, not sticking to a state of being in the past and create a stagnant situation.
The priest angle was fresh, it was new, it hadn't been done before, it opened a new source of stories for the character that haven't yet been told.

Also what exactly was it that was so dull about Nightcrawler studying to be a priest?

... and why is everyone assuming the characters are tied to the titles they are currently in? they never have been in the past when creative teams are changed... if CC gets Uncanny, that doesn't mean he gets the current Uncanny cast. he gets whoever he wants to write/whoever the editors allow him to write. it *could* be some characters currently in Uncanny, but just as likey it could be totally different, maybe even characters not starring in any X-Books at all currently. Nightcrawler could be starring in New after this, for all we know.

Claremont had plans for the character of nightcrawler, after all, it was CC he started the story of Kurt studying to be a priest, it was a story written for the long term, after all he's just a student, not a full fledged priest. CC had a direction for the character, which I assume, he wanted to explore and follow up on.

So if CC actually is the next writer on Uncanny X-men it might very well be that he has the request to have Nightcrawler in the title, seeing how he had plans for Kurt in his previous run.

If CC wanted to he could even return Nightcrawler to a state of faith, where he might very well rethink his descision to abandon the cloth...

After all Kurt has had some very powerfull moments in his history where he has questioned his faith in God, the most powerful moment for me being when Kurt was confronted with the Beyonder. He came from that stronger and more convinced, having learned that his faith runs deeper than just what religion is and what it represents on face value.
Kurt discovered back then and there, that god is as much a force of nature as he is a force of sheer emotion.

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:41 pm

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I quite enjoyed it. It was a definate step forward, the X-books are about progress, evolution, going forward into the future, not sticking to a state of being in the past and create a stagnant situation.
The priest angle was fresh, it was new, it hadn't been done before, it opened a new source of stories for the character that haven't yet been told.

Also what exactly was it that was so dull about Nightcrawler studying to be a priest?

Nightcrawler could have been written as a priest very successfully. The Idea did hold some potential. However, the connotations of what a priest character should act like took precedence over Nightcrawler's established character, even under the pen of excellent writers like Chris Claremont. In my opinion, he just dropped of into being a depressing character. He just wasn't any fun.

Claremont had plans for the character of nightcrawler, after all, it was CC he started the story of Kurt studying to be a priest, it was a story written for the long term, after all he's just a student, not a full fledged priest. CC had a direction for the character, which I assume, he wanted to explore and follow up on.

So if CC actually is the next writer on Uncanny X-men it might very well be that he has the request to have Nightcrawler in the title, seeing how he had plans for Kurt in his previous run.

If CC wanted to he could even return Nightcrawler to a state of faith, where he might very well rethink his descision to abandon the cloth...

After all Kurt has had some very powerfull moments in his history where he has questioned his faith in God, the most powerful moment for me being when Kurt was confronted with the Beyonder. He came from that stronger and more convinced, having learned that his faith runs deeper than just what religion is and what it represents on face value.
Kurt discovered back then and there, that god is as much a force of nature as he is a force of sheer emotion.

On an interesting side note, in a recent interview, Claremont mentioned that if he was given Nightcrawler, he would like to explore a possible relationship between Kurt and Storm, as was introduced in X2. (In other online posts, he said that he wants her to be in a relationship, but fans complain when she becomes anything besides a detatched goddess figure)

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:22 pm

Originally posted by Nightcrawler ZERO
Nightcrawler could have been written as a priest very successfully. The Idea did hold some potential. However, the connotations of what a priest character should act like took precedence over Nightcrawler's established character, even under the pen of excellent writers like Chris Claremont. In my opinion, he just dropped of into being a depressing character. He just wasn't any fun.

But then again, people change all the time, life isn't all shits and giggles, now is it? Nightcrawler matured, grew and changed into a darker persona, more involved in his religion.
Nightcrawler as a priest, or him studying to be one, was a step forward, it took the character to a higher level, a step forward.
These books are about evolution, so logically the kurt we saw ten years ago, is no longer the Kurt we see today.

Kurt took a step forward, a big step forward when he decided to take up his studies, a logical step forward, delving deeper into his faith.

Remy_LeBeau · Post by **Remy_LeBeau** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:10 pm

Originally posted by Miles Teg

But then again, people change all the time, life isn't all shits and giggles, now is it? Nightcrawler matured, grew and changed into a darker persona, more involved in his religion.
Nightcrawler as a priest, or him studying to be one, was a step forward, it took the character to a higher level, a step forward.
These books are about evolution, so logically the kurt we saw ten years ago, is no longer the Kurt we see today.

Kurt took a step forward, a big step forward when he decided to take up his studies, a logical step forward, delving deeper into his faith.

not everyone sees that as a step forward though.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:03 pm

i am not saying editors read poitive views. that's not the point. but a lot of people with negative views do so with the intention that the editors read them and fix their precious book. they often come straight out and say so in their posts. and i am not saying everyone here have the same opinion. all we ask for here is that you be nice about it. it IS possible to have a negative opinion while still being nice about it.

CC wants Kurt, but guess what? so does Chuck. so may the new guy. who gets him is up to editors, and whose idea for the character they want to see followed in the books. if the new guy wants to see Kurt turn evil, and the editors like that, then the editors will give Kurt to him. that being said, the editors on the X-books at the moment are more a fan of non-priest Kurt than priest Kurt. at this point, if CC got him, returning him to the cloth could be seen by some, myself included, as much a step back as you did with him leaving the priesthood.

besides, i understand CC's original intention when he made him a priest in training in the first place was to have Kurt question this calling and leave the priesthood, anyway.

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:26 pm

Originally posted by Remy_LeBeau

not everyone sees that as a step forward though.

How would you have it seen then? Has the character ever been a priest, or this deeply religious, or this serious about his direction?
It hasn't been done before, so it can't be a step backward, seeing how it is quite new to the entire line, it's not using a cliche, it's everything but a step backward.

that being said, the editors on the X-books at the moment are more a fan of non-priest Kurt than priest Kurt.

Do not assume interpretations as fact, unless you have actual proof. You don't have the ability to look into the minds of the editors to make such a statement and present it as fact.

At this point, if CC got him, returning him to the cloth could be seen by some, myself included, as much a step back as you did with him leaving the priesthood.

I concur that it would be a step backward, but then again I still see Kurt leaving the cloth and returning to the state he's currently in, a step backwards, after all, the stories he has appeared in so far have effectively nullified the lion's share of the stories he appeared in over the last four years.

Besides, i understand CC's original intention when he made him a priest in training in the first place was to have Kurt question this calling and leave the priesthood, anyway.

It's futile to speculate on stories that never got to be. You know as well as I do that stories evolve and change, what is originally planned, or had in mind, at an early stage, might not be the actual outcome of the future story.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:38 pm

actually, i am not speculating or assuming anything. i am telling you what was told to me of what was wanted of the character by Chuck, and by his editors. my info comes from the source, it's not even second hand (well, to you reading it is second hand, but i got it first hand). and as for what CC wanted, he said that himself. that's why Cerise showed up out of the blue. granted she wasn't successful at first, but she was intended to persevere and wear him down, in combination with Kurt's personal doubts....

and i agree that it is pointless to speculate on dropped stories. BUT it was YOU that said you wanted CC on the book so he could return Kurt to being a priest. I am just offering up some info that may indicate that if CC did get Kurt, he may have absolutely no interest in doing that. you just assumed he would.

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:38 pm

Miles Teg, everyones views are welcome. We can all disagree with out becoming unpleasant ok? Some time ago, I asked CC what he was going to do with Kurt and the priesthood plot, and he basically said that Kurt would end up seeing that he could still love god and be an X-Man...likely Kurt would want a family. It was, to me a fairly logical plot and would have been interesting to see. The reply to me has been quoted all over the internet and in severall articles (my 15 minutes of fame

)

Who ever ends up writing Kurt will have to put up with a lot of us crazy scrawlers

so they better be nice to our boy.

Zix · Post by **Zix** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:54 pm

I can see this priest/not a priest thing evolving into an arguement. A very reasonable one, like one of those arguements parents have when the kids are awake, where they quietly pick at slight flaws in the other's opinion.
Everyone interprates actions in different ways. What one person may see as being an interesting character development another may see as just rapidly changing their personality.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:14 pm

exactly.... i can see where Miles is coming from. i just don't agree with it. i thought Kurt was DULL as a priest. he wasn't any fun. the whole reason i liked Nightcrawler in the first place was because he was a FUN character. he became a preist, and though it technically didn't HAVE to be this way, the fun went right out the window. he became brooding, preachy and dull. character growth it may have been, but that still does not prevent the results of that growth from being exceptionally boring to me.

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:48 pm

Kurt WAS dull as a priest, and gloomy, and mopey, and preachy, and uptight...he sucked, besides, it doesn't make sense for him to go back to being a priest...that just makes him look like he can't make up his mind.

He is welcome to being Catholic, I enjoy that aspect of him, but a priest????? I still want to thump CC for that one

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:41 am

Well I think that making him the son of Satan (he basically is just that at this point) sucks, and the sooner it is retconned the better, and if the next writer wishes to retcon the draco arc, I wouldn't be able to say that it would bother me much.
I disagree with the direction Austen's stories have taken Kurt in.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:57 pm

I'm sorry but the whole priest thing idea to me is ridiculous, just to think about this makes me giggle a bit, where he could find the time to study, and to become a priest a man needs at least ten years of study, they live a hard life, and Kurt wont be able to continue as an X-man because of the seminary, that's one of the aspects, another will be his looks, maybe he might be a priest, but not everybody will feel in confidence with his looks, i'm sorry to say that but its true from my point of view, but people are people and not everybody will be able to understand why he is like he is. Not even the priests.
And i must say i'm catholic, and i still not liking the idea of him being a priest, i find it ridiculous and boring.
He wasn't meant to be a dark dramatic angsty character in first place.

...And back in topic...(because are way off topic now) i wouldn't jump into conclusions that fast about Kurt being the son of Satan

.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:20 pm

How people can tout continuity and say that they liked something because it took the books/character forward and then say that they can't wait until a current story is retconned (and therefore, taken backward) I'll never know.

Tatu · Post by **Tatu** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:37 pm

you know C, .. I was so waiting for someone to say that, and how glad I am that it wasn't me :p

Garble · Post by **Garble** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:46 pm

I had mixed feelings about Kurt becoming a priest. On one hand I really liked that Nightcrawler was pretty much the only Christian character that wasn't a pastor or fanatical bigot or something.

Then CC out of the blue made him a priest with no explanation of how or why Nightcrawler would make such a drastic, life-changing decision. Kurt has always been a fun-loving ladies man, and the priesthood just never seemed his style. But when it was introduced I had great faith in Claremont and felt that I should give him the benefit of the doubt.
But nothing ever came out of him being a priest. There was never any backstory explaining how it happened, or interesting stories that came from it. (with the exception of the Nightcrawler Icon Series, which wasn't dependant on him being a priest really..) For the most part his priesthood was just treated as an excuse not to use Nightcrawler for anything meaningful or interesting...

Then of course you have the informed catholic readers who point out that becoming a priest takes years of training and study and that not even the most open-minded church in the world would readily allow Kurt to become a man of the cloth. So in addition to being weird, conflicting, and boring... it didn't even make sense.

So when Chuck made the decision that it might be better to bring Kurt back out of the priesthood, he did fixed the logic-problem and even tied it into the X2 movie by having it be an illusion.

And as for making Kurt's origin convoluted... A) We haven't seen all of it yet.. and B) Why should Kurt's origin be any less bizarre than the rest of the X-Men?

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:52 pm

PLEASE READ THIS.

viewthread.php?tid=3029&page=1#pid33589701

Thanks!

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 12:11 am

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Well I think that making him the son of Satan (he basically is just that at this point) sucks, and the sooner it is retconned the better, and if the next writer wishes to retcon the draco arc, I wouldn't be able to say that it would bother me much.
I disagree with the direction Austen's stories have taken Kurt in.

so you come to abandoning the priest argument and going basically: 'well, i don't like this story. SO THERE!' ? i bow before your mighty debate skills.

fine. i don't really care if you agree with it, even if you are jumping to conclusions. but you do realize (as Crawler already pointed out so eloquently) how hypocritical you are being at this point?

you know Andy, i always liked your gynecologist argument when it came to priest Kurt

: Kurt becoming a priest because he liked God, is akin to Bobby becoming a Gynecologist because he liked girls.

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:48 am

Originally posted by Bamfette

so you come to abandoning the priest argument and going basically: 'well, i don't like this story. SO THERE!' ? i bow before your mighty debate skills.
Well the entire statement was after all flavoured with a dash of sarcasm. Apparantly what you missed in this discussion is that what I'm saying is exactly the same as what some others are saying, the only difference is ouw viewpoint.

great powers of observation you've got there, we bow to your all-seeing eye

fine. i don't really care if you agree with it, even if you are jumping to conclusions. but you do realize (as Crawler already pointed out so eloquently) how hypocritical you are being at this point?
Well no more a hypocrit as some others who have posted here. Which is funny, since the only person you seem to reply to, in this type of fashion, is me. Where I find that others, including you, are also supportive of a retcon. You didn't like the idea of Kurt becoming a priest, you didn't like the idea that under Casey he actually was a priest, so you applaud the retcon as written by Austen, and yes it is a retcon, since basically every story in the three years preceding Austen's tenure has effectively been undone, in the manner that it was all a big illusion.

So if I'm being a hypocrit here, I'm not the only one who has shown his face.

you know Andy, i always liked your gynecologist argument when it came to priest Kurt : Kurt becoming a priest because he liked God, is akin to Bobby becoming a Gynecologist because he liked girls.

How shallow a remark, also quite degrading to those with faith. Love for god doesn't make one a priest. Becoming a priest, devoting your life to the Lord comes from a religious conviction that runs deeper than a mere "I like god"-attitude.
The analogy between becoming a priest and becoming a geneacologist is flawed to the ninth level. Unless becoming a geneacologist means that you want to spread the wonderful message of the female sex-organ and the wonderful lessons of what lies hidden inside.

Becoming a priest is becoming someone who wishes to help others from a religious point of view. With a conviction and a vigor that runs deeper than just helping on face value.

If anything it's not all that far removed from being an X-man. As a Priest, Kurt could helped just as many people, he might even become somewhat of a religious symbol for mutants in the Marvel Universe.
That he would do it on a different level than his work as an X-men is quite frankly irrelevant.