Racism and abortion all in one thread!

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Angelique
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Racism and abortion all in one thread!

Post by Angelique »

I just had another case of being embarrassed for my adopted home state. I thought we'd just gotten over our reputation over the Aryan Nations compound and the Randy Weaver fiasco, and now this.

http://www.osv.com/OSVNav/OSVNewsweekly ... fault.aspx

[Edited on 6/3/2008 by Angelique]
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Racism and abortion all in one thread!

Post by JSherlock »

Well, fuck me. Now I know why there's all these ads at bus stops for Planned Parenthood showing an unhappy black girl. That's truly sickening. When will people get over the idea that there's master/lower races?
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

There is not a single unbiased account in that article. It's basically a Pro-Life group and people who belong to a religious group saying something about Planned Parenthood, and PP defending itself. In fact, I found this far worse than anything they accused PP of:
Planned Parenthood leaders "have done a really good job of misleading and spinning the reason why they serve in the black and poor communities," said Georgette Forney, president of Anglicans for Life and co-founder of the pro-life Silent No More Awareness campaign. "They have told their employees that it is the epitome of helping women to be there and to provide this [abortion and contraception] service."

Forney told Our Sunday Visitor that while she does not think Planned Parenthood employees necessarily support racism, "What they support is a sense in which there is a superior way to think about things -- that those who are poor and uneducated are not smart enough to take care of children and to do right by them ... that they're only able to put on condoms, they're not able to abstain from sex, they're like primitive beings."
Who even thinks that way to accuse another group of that kind of thinking? In fact, that statement implies that all people who are unable to refrain from sex are primitive beings. Wow. Just wow. And I'm supposed to take this article seriously?

Not to say PP may not have racist people within it, or even branches that may be racist. But really, all this article says to me is that there is racism in ALL parts of life. But more than anything this seems like a really great bit of propoganda for Pro-Life.

[Edited on 6/3/08 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Racism and abortion all in one thread!

Post by Angelique »

This was just the first article on it.

Here's another. Not propaganda.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdat ... 08723.html

Thinking about it with a slightly cooler head (and watching the extremists on both sides go after each other) has led me to think one thing. It's an under-cover investigation if we like the reason and the results. Otherwise, we cry entrapment and call it a setup or a scam. I am not thrilled with how LA Advocate is handling this, however, and unless they're completely transparent about how they recorded the phone calls and if it was legal (and it is in Idaho), they could be in hot water as well.

But there are a couple of areas where this gets even worse. The calls made to the Idaho and Ohio clinics weren't the only ones that could be embarrassing to PP. The project covered clinics in seven states, all of which appeared interested in accepting racially earmarked donations.

[Edited on 6/3/2008 by Angelique]
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Racism and abortion all in one thread!

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I think that this is another situation where you see a bad employee in an organisation that is really doing a lot of good (aside from the debatable abortions, which are only a small part of what they do - from anything from education, to health care ect).

I hate to see all of them and all there good being totally hogwashed out with one example that was solicted by a planned script. Is that action by that employee intolerable? Of course. But to blame the whole organisation in such a sweeping manner? Ridiculous. It's like saying that all Christian's are like Phelps's group. Of course they aren't.

There is some undeniable and unhappy facts that are brought to light in this though...and a lot of it is simple socioeconomics. That is a shame. There are so many contributing factors there, including widespread racism.

To nail that on planned parenthood is rather a limited view though, imho.

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(edited for clarity - I shouldn't type when I have that bad of a migraine ><)

[Edited on 6/3/08 by fourpawsonthefloor]
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

I'm not saying that they made this up. I am saying that the whole thing reeks of propaganda. In fact, did anyone listen to the calls in the video? I didn't have time to listen to the whole thing, but in the ones I heard, I didn't hear agreement and "right on" attitude from the recipient of the calls to the callers outright radical racism, instead it sounded more like uncomfortable laughter and a bid to just get the money from them and let the crazy be crazy. They were PUSHING HARD for a response. And the response was luke warm at best.

Granted, I won't say racism doesn't exist in PP. But it exists EVERYWHERE. And to condemn a group for the dealings of a few is very limited. When I googled this I found nearly all the sites it was reported on were Pro-Life, Christian, or Conservative. And they are all condemning PP and abortion as a whole for the actions of a few. Ridiculous. In fact, look at the title in the original article: "Undercover sting reignites claims of abortion's racist ties". Since when is PP the be all/end all of abortion? It's a huge sweeping generalization about the actions of one or a few employees. Call any organization/business and talk to the right person, and you'll have an "Undercover racism sting" with proof. It exists everywhere.

And really, what we have here is a Pro-Life group making claims about it's opponent. If Fred Phelps group secretly called gay men and led the conversation into atheism and stuff against God, then started an "ALL GAYS HATE GOD!" smear campaign, would that be taken seriously? It has the same tactics and proof this PP "sting" has. And ther same motivations: To smear the opposition in any way/shape/form.

I do, however, appreciate the Idaho Statesman's less biased account of the entire thing. At least they had the decency and journalistic integrity to present statements from both sides of the argument.

[Edited on 6/3/08 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by Angelique »

They were PUSHING HARD for a response. And the response was luke warm at best.

-----

I heard the calls and read the transcripts, too, and I agree that the caller was pushing hard to get a response. However, I think he was trying to provoke more moral outrage, rather than laughter (nervous or not) coupled with saying his comments about African-Americans were "understandable."

As for branding all PP, I would say that's completely unfair, except how far exactly has the organization distanced itself from Margaret Sanger's views on eugenics in practice as well as official policy?
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

I'd say they distanced themselves pretty damned far, in that I haven't seen or heard any type of information on this racism all over PP matter except by what was "exposed" by this opponent group. As well, I haven't seen this behaviour in my community, in the PP's my friends work with/for, or anything. In fact, I'd never heard of it til this "expose".

And do the statements made by the group mean nothing? Granted, actions speak louder than words, but even that original article claimed the ammount of PP's called is so small that it's really not proving anything, and I wonder how wide spread they were in calling. How many calls didn't make it into the edit because the callee was outraged??

Bottom line: PP is a good organization that does very well for the communities it is in. My friend couldn't afford a biopsy for cervical cancer, and where did she go? PP. Yep. They do that too.

I wonder if this great group will next lead an expose about homophobia in Christianity and other forms of religion. Haven't they heard that little thing about casting stones and glass houses?

[Edited on 7/3/08 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Yup. It's tainted evidence. It's something that is taught to people that actually conduct proper investigations - ie it is unethical to take a picture of say a dirty kitchen pot in a sink to show 'squallor' of a home when the rest of the kitchen is spanking clean. What you are doing if you just take the picture of the dirty pot is that you've already got your mind made up and now you are trying to find 'proof' to fit it.

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Post by Angelique »

How many calls didn't make it into the edit because the callee was outraged??

-----

The articles said that every employee called was willing to accept the money. Granted, it's a small sample, and furthermore, there's no reason to expect confirmation by running the same investigation with a much larger sample, because unless some PP clinics have been living under a rock or don't give a rat's rear, they'll have adjusted their training and their policies accordingly.


As for branding entire organizations and groups by the actions of a few, that happens all the time, too.
Take, for instance, using the Phelps gang to represent all Christians, but that's slightly beside the point. How about, slightly more on topic, Idaho being known only for potatoes and white supremacists- even after we ran the Aryan Nations nutjobs out?

But if you want an investigation with a larger sample, there are some about how clinic employees report abuse and statutory rape. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54079,00.html
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Yeah, I give up. I still stand behind Planned Parenthood for what it does and what it is, and I don't care what else all the conservatives and christians have found against it, true or not. They're still a good organization trying to do the right thing.

There are SO many organizations out there who are predominantly made up of good people doing the right things for the right reasons, and they get smeared by a few and the opponents. Look at the Catholic Church.

[Edited on 7/3/08 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I'm with Nacht. You can't say that stuff. It just screams propaganda.

I bet Bill O'Reilly has cited that before. In fact it sounds like it was written b him.
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Racism and abortion all in one thread!

Post by Zazou »

Originally posted by JSherlock
Well, fuck me. Now I know why there's all these ads at bus stops for Planned Parenthood showing an unhappy black girl. That's truly sickening. When will people get over the idea that there's master/lower races?
Quoted for sarcasm. But in answer to your question, people never will--we always see a minority (in some cases, majority, globally) clinging to archaic morality which most of us have shunned in the name of progress. Racism is a prime example of that, as is homophobia.
Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
I think that this is another situation where you see a bad employee in an organisation that is really doing a lot of good
Quoted for epic levels of truth. However, I think it's possible the situation is a bit different. Personally, when confronted with someone who has an opposing belief which actually scares me, as I would when stuck in a situation with someone who wanted to knife me, I would nod and smile sweetly until I could get them to leave, giving me a mode of escape. Appeasement is a far more manageable policy in minor situations--and yes, some crackpot calling you up to propose aborting black foetuses is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Actually doing it on racial grounds? Clearly a more significant issue than a few phone calls.

This issue seems to have been blown out of proportion by pro-life groups, and taken as an argument against abortion in general--which it really isn't. An argument against abortion needs to attack the act itself, not a specific organisation which supplies the procedure.
Originally posted by Angelique
As for branding all PP, I would say that's completely unfair, except how far exactly has the organization distanced itself from Margaret Sanger's views on eugenics in practice as well as official policy?
Well, I think we'd've heard about them neutering the handicapped, or sneaking into pregnant women's beds to steal their potentially inferior foetuses.
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Post by Angelique »

Originally posted by ZazouWell, I think we'd've heard about them neutering the handicapped, or sneaking into pregnant women's beds to steal their potentially inferior foetuses.
Several US states actually did forcibly sterilize the disabled and the "feeble-minded" through the early 20th century, allegedly with Margaret Sanger's support. She was not interested in forcing eugenic philosophy on intelligent, educated women, but supported a "stern and rigid policy," as she put it in 1932, of segregating and sterilizing people she considered disgenic.

Thankfully, this is illegal now.

I find it interesting, however, that Margaret Sanger noted in her autobiography that she opposed abortion as the taking of human life.

Looks like PP distanced themselves pretty far from that view, as well. :shrug
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

*cough*misinformation*cough*


Might I add that the 1930's we weren't as aware of everything we know nowadays. We shouldn't really judge abortion based on the standards that once were but on the standards we make for ourselves now and the future.
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Post by Saint Kurt »

It is virtually impossible to read about this topic without misinformation on both sides.

Today Planned Parenthood is an organization that provides a valuable service to many people. Margaret Sanger was really a part of their history and some of the things she wrote and did were horrific regardless of when they were written. Neither negates the other.

The problem is that if you want to read about it, there is no "middle view". One side makes it appear as if they're holding klan meetings in PP facilities, the other denies history completely. It's very troubling considering what a hot political topic this is; abortion legality nearly decides the election in some areas of the country.

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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

By mis information I mean the way its delivered is misinformed.

But i mean as you say you can argue the same from the other perspective. We should all be the Skeptic and see both sides. Well put sir. well put.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Originally posted by Ult_Sm86
We should all be the Skeptic and see both sides. Well put sir. well put.
((Fyi - ma'am. Not sir. LOL))

And yes, there is always two sides to a coin. I think most people here have been saying that PP isn't all glory either - but the point is that they still do a lot of good in the general picture. I don't think anything ever in the history of man kind has managed to be 'pure' good. There are always those shades of grey.
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