10 things Christians and Atheists can and must agree on.

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10 things Christians and Atheists can and must agree on.

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

What an excellent article.

Its so often that this sense of tolerance gets lost. People are 'right' or 'wrong'. Things are all in black and white. The world isn't that simple. The ability to empathise is a gift (from God or from our uniquely evolved brains. Your pick). Use it. :)

This article can apply to so much more as well than just atheist vrs christian. Think of how many other groups that you are involved in. A prime one that may resound well here would be the clarmont lovers vrs the claremont haters. Just because you love or hate his writing style - it doesn't 'make' you a good or a bad or a smart or a dumb person. Its all just a difference.

Anyways - read on. Its good. :)

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Post by Ferguson »

Oh that was simply lovely! Thanks for that one.
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Post by Amamelina »

Actually, that was a very good artical. I liked how the author addressed both sides, without favoring either.
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Post by Slarti »

:love Maybe I will have something a little more constructive to say later.
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Post by Angelique »

Thanks, Paws.

I went ahead and took the liberty of posting a link to another comic book forum where the arguments between theists and atheists can get a bit heated.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that will start another argument, but I think we can all hope I'm wrong this time. :)
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Post by Saint Kurt »

My favorite part is the big ugly debate between the atheist and religious advocates in the comments section of the article.

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Post by wingyding »

I really enjoyed that read, paws. The points this guy brings up are good and solid, and most of the argument he makes to support them is neutral and generally agreeable, rather than being one-sided.

I'll have to show this to a couple other people.
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Post by idsunki »

I meant to post that article at some point, so thanks for doing the work for me! It's really helped me understand some of the choices my friends and family have made in the past.

Also, the same guy wrote John Dies at the End, which is a really fun sort of horror story. Emphasis on both fun and horror.

[Edited on 17/12/07 by fourpawsonthefloor]
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Post by HoodedMan »

Not bad at all. A good read for anyone who's on one of the extreme sides of the spectrum.
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Post by Zazou »

I think I lost most of my respect for the author at:
you've walked away from the one single baseline every remotely moral person has ever agreed on: the value of human life. And I know we all agree on that, because we can all think of people we could've otherwise stabbed and gotten away with it.
Pleasant statement from a literary point of view, but wrong. Not everyone agrees on the value of human line as "the one single baseline". Hell, I don't think that many moral theories would accept that as a baseline; the only one I can think of offhand would be morality derived from the Bible. Personally, I don't accept any "moral baselines"--would I smother a screaming baby if it meant concealing a group of people from some Nazis who would otherwise find and kill them? I would certainly consider it an ethically justifiable point. And fucking hell, having an absolute appreciation for "the value of human life" precludes the death penalty, and makes war a lot more problematic. It only takes a cursory look a the world to note that.

OK, OK, that's only one statement from an entire article. But it's not encouraging reading something so silly at the start of an article.
Both believe, then, that it is a corruption of their belief system that allows unjust slaughter to happen.
Nnn-gah? How do you corrupt a disbelief?

Now, a quick respite from my rant: I think #3 is a fantastic point, and one which we should remember far more often. My daily life isn't overly different from my retarded friend who believes that AIDS is a punishment from God. It's only when we try to bash out points like that, or when an issue arises where our beliefs are relevant, that we argue.

Back to the displeasure. I don't like point #5; I've yet to understand how people get offended at my differing viewpoint. Angry? Yes. I'm angry at certain beliefs, but what the hell does offense have to do with it?
Nobody hates the idea of a creator, or of there being some kind of ultimate justice in the universe.
Really? Some idea of predestination tends to follow on from God (omniscient, so knows what we're going to do), and I surely hate that.

#8? Well, I can hardly argue against something by looking at all the good stuff.
It makes humanity sacred, and the moral law moreso.
I love the assumption that the second part of that is a good thing.

:(!
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Post by idsunki »

I think it's also a good read for anyone in the middle. Very good ammunition when talking to people who are extreme on either side.
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Post by Angelique »

Originally posted by Zazou
I think I lost most of my respect for the author at:
you've walked away from the one single baseline every remotely moral person has ever agreed on: the value of human life. And I know we all agree on that, because we can all think of people we could've otherwise stabbed and gotten away with it.
Pleasant statement from a literary point of view, but wrong. Not everyone agrees on the value of human line as "the one single baseline". Hell, I don't think that many moral theories would accept that as a baseline; the only one I can think of offhand would be morality derived from the Bible. Personally, I don't accept any "moral baselines"--would I smother a screaming baby if it meant concealing a group of people from some Nazis who would otherwise find and kill them? I would certainly consider it an ethically justifiable point. And fucking hell, having an absolute appreciation for "the value of human life" precludes the death penalty, and makes war a lot more problematic. It only takes a cursory look a the world to note that.

OK, OK, that's only one statement from an entire article. But it's not encouraging reading something so silly at the start of an article.
:(!
Really? Quite frankly, I think considering smothering a crying baby morally justifiable if it means concealing a group of refugees is silly, especially considering that there are non-lethal means of quieting a baby.

An absolute value for human life does not necessarily preclude the death penalty or war in every case. What do you do about people who have no regard for the value of other people's lives, kill without remorse, and don't intend to stop until and unless they're taken out?
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Post by Zazou »

Originally posted by Angelique

Really? Quite frankly, I think considering smothering a crying baby morally justifiable if it means concealing a group of refugees is silly, especially considering that there are non-lethal means of quieting a baby.
It's a hypothetical situation; the goal is to resolve the moral dilemma, not find a way out that completely avoids it. :p
Originally posted by Angelique

An absolute value for human life does not necessarily preclude the death penalty or war in every case. What do you do about people who have no regard for the value of other people's lives, kill without remorse, and don't intend to stop until and unless they're taken out?
Imprison them, perhaps?
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by Zazou

:(!
Rock on dude!!! :D

I disagree 100% that this is an unbiased account. Yeah, yeah, you can't avoid bias in life but he's... okay, number one, he's not a very good writer. This article is in dire need of some tightening up. The webpage formatting is terrible also. It's hard to get through it.

Number two, he's pretty clearly a gigantic bible-thumper.
When that "boob at the Super Bowl" incident happened a while back, I constantly heard atheists making fun of Christians and their puritan silliness over sex. "Come on! It's just meat! We're all just mammals! Sex is natural! What are you afraid of?!?!?"

Yet, the moment you find out that while you were on vacation, your girl got drunk and slept with the entire Chicago Bears...

...Suddenly sex is something to get upset about. Suddenly it's not just meat slapping against meat. Suddenly the exclusive sexual bond between you and your girl was important, was to be protected, was almost... sacred.
Yeah! A boob on TV is EXACTLY like someone you are in a relationship with having a gangbang behind your back! Who's laughing in the face of decency now!
you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true.

according to an invisible ideal that everybody is aware of

Again there's this invisible rule...
:rolleyes
Nobody hates the idea of a creator, or of there being some kind of ultimate justice in the universe.
Ha, he's totally lying. He doesn't have any atheist friends!

Let's see... ridiculous leaps in logic... check... ignorance of basic human nature... check... grand sweeping statements based on himself and his close personal friends... check. First year (bible) college student who knows everything... ahoy!

Kid, take some philosophy (AND WRITING!!! ESPECIALLY WRITING!!!) classes and try again.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I think that you can nit pick the specifics of this article for certain. I DO think that the message of tolerance that he was trying to get out, on BOTH sides of the fence was an admirable one. Unlikely to achieve, as there are people that will always judge, but it was a good message. :)
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
I think that you can nit pick the specifics of this article for certain. I DO think that the message of tolerance that he was trying to get out, on BOTH sides of the fence was an admirable one. Unlikely to achieve, as there are people that will always judge, but it was a good message. :)
Maybe. Did anyone here praising it actually READ it, or did you all look at the title and think "yes, this is a good article"??

This is the WORST "let's all come together in peace" article I have ever read. And religious debate was my #1 hobby for years!

Edit: Oh god, I'm still steaming over the "swindler" example where he's all "yeah, ha, everyone gets mad because he violates THE LAW OF THE UNIVERSE, eat it unbelievers". You get mad. Because he violates. YOU!!! Retard! THAT'S human nature! Oh fuck this guy is stupid.

[Edited on 18-12-2007 by The Drastic Spastic]
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Post by Amamelina »

I read the artical, and I liked it. I thought he had some good points, and he wasn't just against one side. He got on both sides and told them both to shut up and quit fighting. It may not be the world's best artical, but it's better then most of it's kind that I've seen. He really tried and I give him points for that.
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Post by Angelique »

Originally posted by Zazou
Originally posted by Angelique

Really? Quite frankly, I think considering smothering a crying baby morally justifiable if it means concealing a group of refugees is silly, especially considering that there are non-lethal means of quieting a baby.
It's a hypothetical situation; the goal is to resolve the moral dilemma, not find a way out that completely avoids it. :p
Originally posted by Angelique

An absolute value for human life does not necessarily preclude the death penalty or war in every case. What do you do about people who have no regard for the value of other people's lives, kill without remorse, and don't intend to stop until and unless they're taken out?
Imprison them, perhaps?
Even lifers in solitary can find ways to organize hits on the outside or kill prison guards. Don't the lives of prison guards hold any value?

If a moral dilemma can be avoided, it's not much of a dilemma, anyway.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Lord forbid people with different beliefs get a long right? I think that's what I get most from this article. Kinda, in a more pleasant way, asking people to suck it up and see it from the other perspective. Remember, reality is perception.
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Post by Angelique »

If I had just skimmed the points, I would not have found it that good an article. I think Spaz is actually reading things into the article that aren't there in letter or in spirit- "Eat it, unbelievers," for instance.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

everybody sees things the way they want to. or sometimes even the way they don't want to (if what they WANT is confrontation). All you need to know is what YOU got out of the article, and be sure to apply what it said to YOU to your life.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Yup. That's the simplicity of it. Some will take the info, others won't, but its not up to anyone to say you have to like it. Its cool if you don't. I just wish there was someone yelling for tolerance as loudly as there are ones yelling for intollerance.

Human nature ;). But good and bad people come in all shapes, sizes, sexes, ages, races, orientations and belief systems. There is no standard for who is 'good' or who is 'bad'.

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Post by JSherlock »

Well, it did seem rather preachy, and the title itself is rather 'this is how it should be whether or not you think so'. Obviously, from the comments on this thread, nobody can agree on anything, so the whole article is made moot.
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Post by Freak »

<- has read the article :shifty

Hey, I actually liked it. It's not Sartre, or Hemmingway, or whatever, but try to think of it that way: This guy wants to reach an audience. This audience surely won't think about his writing style, but his points, so I can understand him not giving the most thought on each and every sentence.

So, I've got a few points:
Really? Some idea of predestination tends to follow on from God (omniscient, so knows what we're going to do), and I surely hate that.
I know, people hate if you tell them what they do or not, but: do you really hate this idea? Or are you just plainly annoyed? I mean, I can't talk for you, but if I really hate something, it has to be an activity, not just an idea. Like for example Communism: Like the idea, hate the realization.

Yeah! A boob on TV is EXACTLY like someone you are in a relationship with having a gangbang behind your back! Who's laughing in the face of decency now!
Now come on. Exageration is a common mean of dialogue, don't tell me you haven't ever used it. Not to mention that it only was an example, which gets a completely other meaning (Than the probably intended one) by utilizing the word EXACTLY. The baseline of this point was to show that although atheists don't believe in God(s), they have basic values in their lifes that just aren't in accordance with science.

Ha, he's totally lying. He doesn't have any atheist friends!
I don't know whether this is rather point 5 (Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them) or 6 (We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy) but seemingly by trying to argue the article, you have at least partially proven it :)


Guess it's finally time for my own opinion: I am as hardcore as you can get if it comes to science. I believe in facts and numbers, and in the point that everything can be proven as real or not real. This goes so far that I have dedicated my life to this.

This article, unlike other opinions out there, doesn't deny me this right (which is the norm, may it be out of faith or political correctness) so that's a brownie point for me. He states simple facts about humans, which can be proven empirically and theoretically, without saying the author is right with what he is saying, leaving room for healthy doubt. Another plus.

And finally: I feel that it really well reflects reality as it is perceived by me. Although being the nerd I am, I like a girl I have never actually met in person. I will be giving presents to my family and friends this Christmas, which is the birthday of some guy who may or may not have existed. And I will be celebrating New Year's, nothing but a completely random point in time, made up by humans.

So: Good read, will spread the word.

[Edited on 19/12/07 by Freak]
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Post by Angelique »

Heh. Christmas is not even the actual birthday of this "guy who may or may not have existed."

As for being a nerd, there's hope for you. I met a guy one New Year's Eve, and spent a pleasant half hour or so discussing the finer points of Sumerian mythology in comparison and contrast to more modern Western beliefs. Almost ten years to the day later, I still haven't gotten rid of him. ;)
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