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Post by Angelique »

Ahem. Did I condemn anyone who thought differently?
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Post by Garble »

There's a lot of grey areas in this issue and it doesn't seem like there's many good ways to clarify the lines.

The can-think/can't-think point doesn't really help. Scientists don't really know when exactly sentience occurs or even how to properly define it. The human mind doesn't just suddenly spring into existence fully formed out of nothing. It appears to develop slowly, starting with the most basic brain functions and becoming more complex over time. A young infant will react the same way to a toy being blocked from sight as if the toy is simply taken away. This suggests they have a very thin grasp on the consistence of reality. (No wonder the game peek-a-boo is so fascinating to them). Inside the womb, it's difficult to know just what is going on. When can it detect outside stimulus? How much can it process this stimulus? When does "there is cold" become "I'm cold"?

We know that a lump of identical cells can't think and we know that fully developed human being can. It's all the points in between that are more of a mystery and subject to degrees and nuance.
There's a point in pre-natal development when the embryo starts growing brain cells but is still classified as an embryo. But do those brain cells actually "think"?

The lack of certainty requires us to pick somewhat arbitrary standards and definitions to mark our decisions in this area.

In the past, laws/traditions set the point of life as when the baby first kicked inside the womb.

Today we have legally decided that at the 3rd trimester a fetus is too close to a human to abort.
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Post by Angelique »

Still, personally, I think matters of life and death should be determined by something less arbitrary.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Garble

Today we have legally decided that at the 3rd trimester a fetus is too close to a human to abort.
I think what's interesting about our government trying to step in is that THEY don't even consider a baby a human until birth. They don't give SS numbers to feti, nor do they count them on the census forms. Not that I'm trying to claim one way or the other, but it's kind of an interesting hypocrisy. Maybe a good reason for them to stay out of it all together
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

How is "ability to think" difficult to define in the case of an embryo? It literally does not have a brain. The neurons are not firing. So, while we don't know everything, we know enough to know that means it is not capable of thinking. Immediately bringing out the crazy sci-fi Gattaca argument against the reasoning and acting like this is some slippery slope is ridiculous. It's not a graduated slope. It's a yes or no question. Brain activity (not even necessarily thinking) starts around seven weeks.

I support abortions WAY past seven weeks, obviously. But lots of pro-lifers like to pretend they draw the line at fertilization, when obviously they draw it much earlier, with the ban on condoms to fight AIDS, the huge local issue where a "Catholic" [in name; bitchasses get public funding which is why it's an issue] hospital is refusing to do tubal ligations, etc. So I'm just going to say: Seven weeks seems fair.

[Edited on 15-10-0606 by The Drastic Spastic]
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Post by Angelique »

I don't think SS numbers are even relevant. You don't have to have a social security number to be considered a human being.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic

I support abortions WAY past seven weeks, obviously. But lots of pro-lifers like to pretend they draw the line at fertilization, when obviously they draw it much earlier, with the ban on condoms to fight AIDS, the huge local issue where a "Catholic" [in name; bitchasses get public funding which is why it's an issue] hospital is refusing to do tubal ligations, etc. So I'm just going to say: Seven weeks seems fair.
Yeah, I'm kind of confused as to pro-life groups being against contraception and ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy. You'd think that supporting condom or birth control usage would be a far better way to combat abortion. The only reason I could think of for a group to be against both abortion and contraception is based in their religious belief. Which has no place in law anyhow...
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Post by Saint Kurt »

How is "ability to think" difficult to define in the case of an embryo? It literally does not have a brain. The neurons are not firing. So, while we don't know everything, we know enough to know that means it is not capable of thinking.
What? Are you kidding me?

The FIRST thing that forms is the brain. The NEXT thing that happens is neurons start firing.

Telencephalon Diencephalon Mesencephalon Metencephalon Myencephalon Spinal cord

Those are first six divisions of an embryo that will ultmately become the cerebral cortex, the thalmus and hypothalmus, the midbrain, brain stem, cerebellum, and spinal cord. They are what is known as the Secondary Brain Vesicles (and are the end results of weeks of neural system development.)

Here it is. At 7 weeks of development, an embryo, all it is, is a brain:

Image

Furthermore it is from these tissues that the rest of our ENTIRE body develops. Our musles - they develop from the cells of our mesencephalon. Our mouths, from the diencephalon, and our gastrointestinal tract comes from the Metencephalon. Every cell in your body came from neural tissue.

Just a few posts earlier, I talk about this very phenomenon.

So for pete's sake, before you make such bold (and wrong) scientific statements, would it kill you guys to do a little bit of research first?

Even something as scientifically sketchy as Wikipedia has an acceptable article on embryology.

If you're going to talk science, religion, history, or whatever, great. The more in depth the discussion the better, but please, know what you are talking about first. I don't ask for much, but I do ask for this.

Thanks,
-e

[Edited on 16/10/06 by Saint Kurt]
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Post by Garble »

Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette

Yeah, I'm kind of confused as to pro-life groups being against contraception and ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy. You'd think that supporting condom or birth control usage would be a far better way to combat abortion. The only reason I could think of for a group to be against both abortion and contraception is based in their religious belief. Which has no place in law anyhow...
EXACTLY.
Reduce the number of unexpected pregnancies and you reduce the number of abortions.

Don't want women to have abortions? Put gumball machines everywhere that spit out "Plan B". Teach every kid that can get an erection how to put a condom over it. Teach every kid of child-bearing age how pregnancies do and don't happen so they don't try stupid crap like jumping up and down or peeing right after sex.

Abortions will become one of those medical rarities like separating conjoined twins or removing an extra limb.
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Post by Angelique »

SK, if that's what an embryo is like at seven weeks, an awful lot of transformation must be taking place all at once in one week. Here's a fetus at 8 weeks, magnified a couple of times.

Image

Garble, if only reducing abortion were as simple as increasing the availability of contraception. Historically, I'm not sure there's a direct correlation. For one thing, contraception, even of the emergency variety, can fail, and some people can (I'm not saying that all do) develop a false sense of security in contraception. For that reason, while comprehensive sex education is a good idea that I don't think has ever been completely tried, Plan B in gumball machines would be a terrible idea.

For another, not everyone may regard an unexpected pregnancy as necessarily unwelcome. I think attitudes toward life, sex, committment, children, fertility, the future and our place in it, for instance and changes in the general social climate are more likely to directly affect the abortion rate than forgetting to teach little boys how to use condoms.

[Edited on 16/10/0606 by Angelique]
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Garble

EXACTLY.
Reduce the number of unexpected pregnancies and you reduce the number of abortions.

Don't want women to have abortions? Put gumball machines everywhere that spit out "Plan B". Teach every kid that can get an erection how to put a condom over it. Teach every kid of child-bearing age how pregnancies do and don't happen so they don't try stupid crap like jumping up and down or peeing right after sex.

Abortions will become one of those medical rarities like separating conjoined twins or removing an extra limb.
It's just a matter of education over ignorance. This country for some god foresaken reason prides in its ignorance...

And I don't get all these arguments about when a fetus can think, etc etc. It's completely regardless to the topic at hand. This is about a woman's right to make a choice, not a lesson in embroylogy. Pro-lifers like to use scare tactics, ridiculous statistics and faith to try to bully people into believing what they believe. Because really, when you get down to it, there are alot of things we just don't know and can't prove. I think the fairest way to think of it is; When can the fetus survive independent of it's mother? Because, regardless, the woman deserves the right to choose her path in life, the same as a man gets the right to choose. It's kind of a big load of bullshit that a woman will have to get stuck with an unwanted child while a man can completely wash his hands of it.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette

It's just a matter of education over ignorance. This country for some god foresaken reason prides in its ignorance...

And I don't get all these arguments about when a fetus can think, etc etc. It's completely regardless to the topic at hand. This is about a woman's right to make a choice, not a lesson in embroylogy.
For me that is the key too. Keep them babies from being made in the first place. I think that it is a horrible shame every time that a fetus is aborted, but I am NOT the one in that womans shoes. It is not my right to force my values on her.

On a somewhat less morbid note, I have always found embryo's to be the coolest damn things. So may I present: Name That Embryo!

Image

Image

Image

Image

All of these embryos are from a different species. None are duplicates.

I think that it is beyond wild that we all start out looking pretty damn alike. That we all go through similar processes. In a way that makes you debate just WHAT defines one life being vastly more important than anothers, but then that is a WHOLE nother debate.

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Post by Angelique »

The fetal viability argument is also subject to far too many variables that don't even have anything to do with stage of development, like the availiability and quality of prenatal and neonatal care, where the mother gives birth, who's attending and assisting, the stress of the delivery itself, what other health issues may exist, et cetera. Babies born at 24 weeks gestation can survive with proper medical care. Some babies born full term prove unable to do so.

There are things we don't know and can't prove. But whether or not a fetus is a living human being, well, we are indeed learning more about that, and if it is not yet conclusively proven to the satisfaction of the scientific community, it very well can be, perhaps in the not too distant future.

But then there's the prickly question of just what a fetus' life should mean to us. I am afraid that no science can address that, and there's where we get into the philosophical hedging about what human lives are more important than others. That, I think, may be the crux of the matter anyway.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette

It's just a matter of education over ignorance. This country for some god foresaken reason prides in its ignorance...

And I don't get all these arguments about when a fetus can think, etc etc. It's completely regardless to the topic at hand. This is about a woman's right to make a choice, not a lesson in embroylogy.
For me that is the key too. Keep them babies from being made in the first place. I think that it is a horrible shame every time that a fetus is aborted, but I am NOT the one in that womans shoes. It is not my right to force my values on her.

On a somewhat less morbid note, I have always found embryo's to be the coolest damn things. So may I present: Name That Embryo!

Image

Image

Image

Image

All of these embryos are from a different species. None are duplicates.

I think that it is beyond wild that we all start out looking pretty damn alike. That we all go through similar processes. In a way that makes you debate just WHAT defines one life being vastly more important than anothers, but then that is a WHOLE nother debate.

paws
Thats so crazy! It is really interesting that, essentially, we all come from the same beginnings. Cool!
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Post by Saint Kurt »

SK, if that's what an embryo is like at seven weeks, an awful lot of transformation must be taking place all at once in one week. Here's a fetus at 8 weeks
Yes! There is!

Frickin' amazing isn't it! Between 7 to 8 weeks is the transformation from "embryo" to "fetus" and the little guy/gal has been BUSY. (I make that determination because at 7 weeks, we're all female. So I hope you enjoyed those 7 weeks boys. ;))

That little 7 week old "alien brain" thing has been hard at work differentiating tissues in order to create little limb buds and pro-organs and stuff. It's still missing a lot though. (And that little dark thing really isn't it's liver by the way. It's the "mesenephros" which will actually become part of it's kidneys and genitalia.) It may have a little brain and look kind of baby like, but it lacks lungs and it will for a very long time (they will develop last). You certainly need lungs to live.
Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
And I don't get all these arguments about when a fetus can think, etc etc. It's completely regardless to the topic at hand.
This is my point exactly. Start discussing science and you get lost in this subject - unless you go paws' route and talk about how cool this stuff is and leave it at that. This happens to be a science I like and know a lot about, but I've said several times already that I leave that knowledge in the books when I think about the politcal/moral ramifications of this subject.

I don't want to even imagine senators and representatives having conversations like these while trying to set laws for our country.

-e
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Post by Angelique »

I know! The beautiful thing is how a human being can go from single celled organism to adult in just shy of 20 years, yet the single most eventful period in human development by far has to be the first eight weeks after conception, the first 2/3rd's of the first trimester.

Unfortunately, politicians, lobbyists, and lawyers have been using misunderstood and/or obsolete science to rationalize their positions on this issue ever since the '70's.

At any rate, I do think, "Yes, we know a fetus is a human life form. We just don't believe that he or she is equal to other human beings," is more honest, but it isn't going to be as popular as, "It looks like a chicken embryo, therefore it can't be human."

[Edited on 17/10/0606 by Angelique]
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Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
This is about a woman's right to make a choice
...

I think the fairest way to think of it is; When can the fetus survive independent of it's mother? Because, regardless, the woman deserves the right to choose her path in life, the same as a man gets the right to choose. It's kind of a big load of bullshit that a woman will have to get stuck with an unwanted child while a man can completely wash his hands of it.
You know... I don't even go here either. It makes us sound kind of ... savage ... us makin' babies where two people hook up, inadvertantly create life, and say "oopsie - let's get rid of it before our lives are affected". I mean, excepting rape, failed contraception, and other extreme extenuating circumstances ... why wasn't some kind of choice made beforehand?

I don't know. I could be talking out my ass here, but who said life was fair. Since when does the government enact laws to balance biology? I'm not saying you're wrong to think this way, it's just that I don't get this logic either.

The truth is, I don't even know why this is such a politically important issue in the first place since it affects such a tiny percentage of the population at any one time. Yet it can become the defining item on a candidate's platform. It kind of boogles my mind.

As a voter, I've pretty much washed my hands of it. I know where I stand and honestly there is no arguable logic that put me there. I no longer pay attention to a candidate's direction on this issue at all. I look at where they stand on the much larger issues that affect a greater proportion of the population and vote in accordance with those. As long as this country remains a true democracy, the right decisions will be made when the time comes.

I think making it a top platform issue and shining such a bright light on it every year or so might even hurt the chances of an honest and simple resolution ever being made. If I had my wish, I would wish for this issue to move away from the political front for like a decade, leave it a choice, focus on education, and then see where it stands. I think we'd be the better for it.

-e
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Saint Kurt

You know... I don't even go here either. It makes us sound kind of ... savage ... us makin' babies where two people hook up, inadvertantly create life, and say "oopsie - let's get rid of it before our lives are affected". I mean, excepting rape, failed contraception, and other extreme extenuating circumstances ... why wasn't some kind of choice made beforehand?

I don't know. I could be talking out my ass here, but who said life was fair. Since when does the government enact laws to balance biology? I'm not saying you're wrong to think this way, it's just that I don't get this logic either.

The truth is, I don't even know why this is such a politically important issue in the first place since it affects such a tiny percentage of the population at any one time. Yet it can become the defining item on a candidate's platform. It kind of boogles my mind.

As a voter, I've pretty much washed my hands of it. I know where I stand and honestly there is no arguable logic that put me there. I no longer pay attention to a candidate's direction on this issue at all. I look at where they stand on the much larger issues that affect a greater proportion of the population and vote in accordance with those. As long as this country remains a true democracy, the right decisions will be made when the time comes.

I think making it a top platform issue and shining such a bright light on it every year or so might even hurt the chances of an honest and simple resolution ever being made. If I had my wish, I would wish for this issue to move away from the political front for like a decade, leave it a choice, focus on education, and then see where it stands. I think we'd be the better for it.

-e
Basically, what I was saying was that if you do need to make any decisions as to when abortion is allowed legally then perhaps thats a good indicator of when to restrict it.

But it is nothing but a load of BS that it has anything to do with the government whatsoever. And it doesn't have a place in law, or elections, or any of it. It's just another way for the conservatives to point to the left and call us godless....which, again, should be completely regardless. God has no place in government!!

But again, I think it all comes back to contraception being the key. Teach kids to use all that is available to them (and MAKE IT AVAILABLE) and we'll find a lower rate of abortions. This woman herself went about means to avoid abortion! Had those means been available, we'd have avoided one more abortion.

[Edited on 17/10/0606 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
God has no place in government!!
You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I think it's so sick that this issue gets trotted out every election so that politicians might gain the votes of various religious communities.

-e
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Post by Angelique »

God very definitely has a place in the government. It's religion that has no place there.

But that's irrelevant. I actually think the "religious right" screwed up by making a religious issue out of abortion, when it really is a human rights issue and not all pro-lifers are Christian or even believe in God.

Politicizing the issue also insures that it won't ever really go away. Democrats support abortion in hopes of snagging the feminist vote. Republicans may have a pro-life plank in their platform, but they don't want abortion to go away, either. If they actually made any inroads into reducing or eliminating elective abortion, they would lose the leverage they have with pro-life voters. There are a few groups that both political parties are a bit leery of- Feminists for Life, Democrats for Life, and though I don't support abortion and I'm not Republican, I'm sure there is an organization of pro-choice Republicans. These kind of threaten the corner each party claims on feminist and pro-life voters.

As for the population affected, over a million abortions have been performed each year in the United States since 1980. Over 26 million abortions. Over 26 million women who've had abortions. And there are likely more people who neither had abortions nor were aborted, but were nonetheless affected by the issue. (Policies in schools and in the workplace that effectively penalize women who don't have abortions are still in place in a lot of areas, for instance.) I do not believe this represents a tiny segment of the population.

[Edited on 17/10/0606 by Angelique]
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Saint Kurt
Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
God has no place in government!!
You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I think it's so sick that this issue gets trotted out every election so that politicians might gain the votes of various religious communities.

-e
It's such a non-issue considering all the other shit this government needs to deal with. I think we should consider working on the rights for the human beings actually living in this country over thinking about the potential humans.

I don't get why people have a hard time understanding the seperation of church and state. It's SO FUCKING SIMPLE. Taxes? State. God? Church. It's THAT simple and if this country needs to adhere to it. No one faith (including the belief in God) should be put above any other.

People need to pull their heads out of their asses and get that they're faith is not the end all/be all.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

Originally posted by Saint Kurt
Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
God has no place in government!!
You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I think it's so sick that this issue gets trotted out every election so that politicians might gain the votes of various religious communities.

-e
I fully agree with that too - which is why it gets so aggravating that so many religious issues are trotted out every election. Like gay marriage (I know, I sound like a broken record) which is more of a human rights issue. You shouldn't be able to campaign off of that stuff and influence people with it, who may be blinded by these issues that the candidates really aren't doing a whole lot about instead of looking at REAL issues. Not that all these hot button topics aren't important - its just that the candidates will actually do very little about them (usually), and therefore there are other way more important things to consider when looking at electing your official.

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