Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread?)

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by Bamfette
I do know that if I was on a team and someone started preaching to me and my other teammates, i would kick them if i was the leader, or I would quit the team. I'm not playing so i can be preached to, and doing so will not do anything to convert me, it will only serve to annoy me.
There have been a ton of articles about this in the news lately as various evangelical denominations of Christianity are on the rise. This issue that is most written about in mainstream media is when managers want to do things like have prayer meetings with their teams, but not all the members of their teams are Christian. (I remember reading something in Newsweek or Time last year. I'm going to try to search but I know I'm going to end up with a mess...)

Okay, I'm not sure that this is the article, but it has the right tone and message:
Faith Entering the Workplace

It's an incredibly complex issue though because of differing sensitivities. The line between mentioning something that's part of a person's life (ie "I went to church yesterday") and proselytizing (ie "You should believe what I believe") is different for everyone. It's the dessert thing again. If I offered up pieces of my yummy chocolate bar to everyone only a small percentage might find that offensive. If I offered up pieces of my faith to everyone the results would be much more different and unpredictible.

I don't see much of a way around it either, which is why I only ever share my dessert.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Saint Kurt


I don't see much of a way around it either, which is why I only ever share my dessert.

-e
I don't even share that! Keep your eyes off MY chocolate!
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Crawler »

Not quite the workplace and less scandalous since they're vaguely a Christian goup (though few realize it) but Christian Evangelism is why I only made it to Tenderfoot in the Boy Scouts (Tenderfoot is the first level of true Boy Scouts, though there are Cub Scouts and Webelos below it...both of which I "graduated" from)

Cub Scouts didn't really have it at all, other than a prayer to start that we didn't always say. As far as I remember, my Webelos leaders didn't delve into the Christian aspects at all...

But I only stood for the Evangelism in the true Boy Scouts for about 4 meetings before I left. (Little more to it than that, but that's the gist.)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Hsu »

Yeah the Boy Scouts is ultra religious. That was the major reason I was never in it.

As far as I can tell, this seems to be one of those "give the people what they want" types of deals. Face it, religion isn't as strong as it used to be, and a lot of people are sick of the rules.

This is the same thing that happened way back when with the Catholic church. If people want to live their lives a certain way, it's easier to twist the doctrine around than to try to change all those people. That's how holidays were born.

It's the same thing good conquerors did. Alexander the Great always let people keep their way of life after he conqueored them. It lessened the chance of an uprise.

Think of the churches as modern day War Generals. :)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Crawler
Not quite the workplace and less scandalous since they're vaguely a Christian goup (though few realize it) but Christian Evangelism is why I only made it to Tenderfoot in the Boy Scouts (Tenderfoot is the first level of true Boy Scouts, though there are Cub Scouts and Webelos below it...both of which I "graduated" from)
Same for me, C, though I went a bit further, since I tried to fight it (I'm stubborn) and found out it wouldn't go anywhere. I made it to First Class. Ah well.

The thing that annoys me in Boy Scouts is the discrimination; it's worse than the Army.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, regarding Boy Scouts, it depends on the troop. I can't really call them "ultra-religious" because they really aren't affiliated with any one religion. Rather, different congregations of different religions can have their own affiliated troops.

As for the workplace, I really like how Ford is handling it. I think their policy is best for encouraging respect without limiting religious freedom.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Crawler »

Whether you really run into the Evangelism part of it depends on the troop...mostly because it will depend on your troop leader.

However, on an OFFICIAL level, they are a Christian organization, or at least likes to think of themselves as such in the same way America is "based on Christian values."

There are NO openly gay troop leaders anymore because of it.

And there's the scout oath, which you MUST recite before each meeting:
From the Boy Scouts OFFICIAL website:
Scout Oath Scout Law
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight
Want further proof? Check out their LEGAL STAND of a Boy Scout's "Duty to God"...which they have used to barr Atheists from joining/continuing: http://www.bsalegal.org/quot;dut-155.htm

And the vow to be "morally straight" (as if that isn't obvious in intention just by the wording) which they've used to throw out gay leaders and scouts: http://www.bsalegal.org/morallys-156.htm
From Wikipedia
As quoted in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale from a 1993 BSA position statement, the BSA prohibits avowed homosexuals as both leaders and members. "The Boy Scouts of America has always reflected the expectations that Scouting families have had for the organization. They do not believe that homosexuals provide a role model consistent with these expectations. Accordingly, they do not allow for the registration of avowed homosexuals as members or as leaders of the BSA." A more recent policy from 2004 excludes homosexual leaders, but does not explicitly mention members. However, it does require that BSA members must be morally straight in thought and be willing to follow the Scout Oath and Law.

The BSA's prohibition of known or avowed homosexuals as leaders or members, youths who refuse to affirm a "duty to God", and adult atheists and agnostics, has been particularly controversial in some quarters. The prohibition is enforced in many cases, but not always.
So...is it going to be 100% enforement of these policies across the board? No. But it IS their OFFICIAL stance.

And it's important to point out that this is the Boy Scouts of AMERICA that I am talking about, though Scouting is a worldwide phenomenon with loose associations between countries.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Crawler
The prohibition is enforced in many cases, but not always.
Indeed. My scoutmaster was actually rather nice; he considered both religion and orientation to be a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. But not all scoutmasters are as forgiving, and I don't condone that sort of policy in the long run anyway. And I told them so. :content

Ah, good times. But yes, there is absolutely no doubt that the Boy Scouts are a religious organization.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by Crawler
And it's important to point out that this is the Boy Scouts of AMERICA that I am talking about, though Scouting is a worldwide phenomenon with loose associations between countries.
There are some weird breaches of the separation of church and state in this country that I've never understood.

I didn't realize how religious the boy scouts were until this summer when my friend, a very religious Catholic who was also an eagle scout went to be a chaplain at a boy scout camp. I was like "The boy scouts have a chaplain?!" :? I'd had no clue.

And even as a kid I was always baffled by the Pledge of Allegience. "One Nation, Under God"? Why was that in there in the morning when we'd spend all afternoon in history class learning about the separation of church and state? It still confuses me to be honest.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

Well, I'm Canadian, but seeing as so much American culture seeps up here, I have to admit the pledge and such always confused me too... (but then, in some ways we have it orse, since we have 'god save the queen' and all) then i learned WHY it was that way (added in the 50's to add another degree of seperation between Americans and 'godless communists' in Russia) and it confused me less why it was there, though i didn't agree with it, but then i became more confused as to why people object so strongly to having it chanced BACK to what it was originally (one nation, indivisible) since it was such a recent change and the cold war is over.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Yes, there are camp chaplains in Boy Scouts- of a wide variety of religions. I never considered Boy Scouts to be a religious organization because they as a whole, in the United States, are not affiliated with any one particular religion. It doesn't always depend on the leader, it depends on the troop. If your troop is affiliated with an LDS ward, as most are in my area, expect an LDS perspective. If your troop is affiliated with a Catholic parish, you'll get a different take on things. And so forth.
Talk about a duty to God and living "morally straight" is not necessarily religious, let alone specifically Christian.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Crawler »

How in the world is "duty to God" not religious? Especially when you use the term as legal basis for booting atheists and agnostics out of your little club?

You either have an extremely skewed idea of what religion is or you're arguing just to argue. I have a feeling it's the latter, and if it is, knock it off.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by idsunki »

I think one of the reasons people raise such a fuss over taking 'under God' out of the pledge is that not that many people know it wasn't in there originally. I'd be willing to bet that a poll asking Americans if they'd want the original pledge or a changed pledge would have nearly the same percentages if they polled whether they wanted 'under God' in or not.

Of course, the main reason is that evangelicals (mostly Christian, but any monotheistic could qualify) somehow believe that this nation is the new City on the Hill, so of course God holds this country above all others. Personally, I think we're a little closer to the Roman Empire, but that's an entirely different subject.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by idsunki
Of course, the main reason is that evangelicals (mostly Christian, but any monotheistic could qualify) somehow believe that this nation is the new City on the Hill, so of course God holds this country above all others.
Whenever a politician or otherwise calls this a "Christian Nation" I just cringe. We are also a "Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Agnostic, Atheist, and all the religions I can't think of Nation". Not that any of it matters since the NATION is supposed to be secular.

Everyone treats the separation of church and state like it's some kind of rocket science and yet it seems pretty obvious to me.

Is God, a diety, or scripture mentioned? ---------> Not State
Are laws reguarding roadways, civil liberties, etc mentioned? --------> State

See? easy.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, I wouldn't necessarily agree that the US is or is supposed to be a secular nation, especially since more and more often the term "secular" is used to imply that religion is precluded. We are a Christian nation. And Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Partridge Family (yes, there is a group that worships Danny Bonaduce!), agnostic, atheist, religious, and secular.

Regarding "Duty to God," it is possible to be a Deist without being religious.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Main Entry: de·ism
Pronunciation: 'dE-"i-z&m, 'dA-
Usage: often capitalized
: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe
Deism is the faith that there is a God and not necessarily one that interferes with the workings of the Universe, but there is one.

I believe religion as it applies here is:
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
Simply put, a religion is what you believe. Maybe I should have said the Boy Scouts are a God-based organization, since we want to complain about the word religious. If you believe in God, you're in. If not, you're out. It's the whole basis.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Defining words is fun!!

How does this:
sec·u·lar Audio pronunciation of "secular" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sky-lr)
adj.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.
4. Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy.
not mean this:
We are a Christian nation. And Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Partridge Family (yes, there is a group that worships Danny Bonaduce!), agnostic, atheist, religious, and secular.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

A very good point. Secular does exactly preclude religion.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by StarChild »

You know what...no...no opinion...none....I apologize...don't care...I just want to talk about Kurt, NC, fanfic and write my story....
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

StarChild, some of my best friends are Christians, but that doesn't mean I have to be. So I hope you don't take offense to the following remarks.

What's wrong with God? Nothing at all is wrong with God, except that not everyone in this country is now a Christian. Religious freedom does not mean that everyone hates Christians; it means the exact opposite.

The YMCA and YWCA still have those names, in fact. They are Christian organizations, as are the Boy Scouts, so that's only proper. They're not part of the government, so that's fine. I'm not bashing on Christians, StarChild, I'm just saying the Boy Scouts are not my thing.

God has been a part of this country's founding, but so was religious freedom. Have you read that part of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution? Under God is still in the pledge if you want it to be. What's prohibiting you from saying it? I appreciate that your God loves everyone. Perhaps I'll find that out for myself one day. But before then, I ask that you don't force it. (By that, I mean Christians in general.)

Your saying that "everything" is wrong with organized religion seems to undermine your entire point. I'm not sure what you meant by that. No one has ever said that there is anything wrong with God; in fact, we are fighting for your right to worship your God. But why exclude other people?

I think I'm going to have to take another break from this thread; we've gone way off topic again and anyone who's not a Christian has been again identified as a Christian-basher. I'm the friend of everyone who doesn't insult me. You're trying to say that you're inclusive, but you're not inclusive if you lump all of your opposition into one group.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Zazou »

Originally posted by StarChild
ah, maybe I should sit out of this one!
I agree.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, this is the religion thread, and one thing I have always insisted upon is everyone's right to not sit out if they feel they have something to say.
But if indeed secularism does preclude religion, perhaps the US should not be a secular nation. We have the First Amendment to protect religion from government involvement as well as to ensure no favoritism on the basis or lack of religion. Separation of Church and State was intended at first to keep the government out of religion more than the other way around.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

StarChild, as idyllic a picture as it sometimes comes off as, the McCarthy era was not exactly the best time to be anything BUT Christian, that does not speak of tolerance to me. It was a time when they tried to paint a picture of their lives being as idyllic and pure as they could, so that the 'commies' would see how superior we were. It was propoganda. If you were a white heterosexual Christian, it was a great time, I'm sure. But not for the other guys. If you professed yourself to be an atheist, you were labeled a communist, and things got very unpleasant, for instance. This isn't a bash against Christianity itself. It was just the most widely followed religion so it floated to the top. It just shows how far propoganda can ingrain itself in peoples minds and lives, and what can happen if we succumb to fear of the unknown or different.

and, frankly, this argument trying to imply that Christianity is persecuted now annoys me. It's just ridiculous that Christians which make up over eighty percent of the US society are somehow being persecuted by the other 20 percent, when that 20 percent is even further divided into other religious groups which do not share a common goal or set of beliefs. How is it that 80 percent of the population is so easily persecuted by 20 percent? when the president and most other government representatives are themselves Christian, no less? Christians are painting themselves as victims when they are not, it's a tactic to put themselves in a place of power, and I find it disgusting. They are only victims because they want to be seen that way.
and I want under God in the pledge because God is the God of all mankind, not just Christians...He loves us all and gives us a choice to love him back!
I don't want to have to say anything thet may make it seem I endorse a god, because I do not. And having that in the pledge (assuming i was American, for a second) would make me feel inferior to Christians, becuase it appears that Christianity (it's the Christian god specifically it's mentioning and you know it) is being endorsed as the 'right' belief to hold. Is my view less important than yours? That's why seperation of Church and State is vitally important. I absolutely and very strongly disagree with the very notion of a god, and it is not fair to me to be REQUIRED to say something that affirms the existence of a god. It places religion, and specifically Christianity ABOVE other beliefs, instead of on equal footing, where it SHOULD be. It is not special, and yet the current language of the pledge makes it seem like it is in the eyes of the government.

I think now is a good time to outline what the founding fathers themselves thought on seperation of Church and State, in particular Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Should also help dispell the notion that the US is a 'Christian nation' since by all appearances the majority of the founding fathers were Deist or agnostic. Jefferson is particularly critical of Christianity...

From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:545

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), quoted from Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings (1984), p. 347

I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.

-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority.
But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the U.S. an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from.... I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct it's exercises, it's discipline, or it's doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting & prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, & the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the constitution has deposited it. I am aware that the practice of my predecessors may be quoted.... Be this as it may, every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, & mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the U.S. and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents.

-- Thomas Jefferson, to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808

For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law ... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it ... That system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

and now for a little James Madison... he gets a link because there are far more quotes, and they are ALL relevant, where as i had to sift through a list of general Jefferson quotes to find the ones relevant to seperation of church and state

Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists association is also quite applicable, as is the Treaty of Tripoli (in particular, art. 11)

... looking at the state the US is in now, it really saddens me how far they've fallen....

and you know, in your 'can we still be friends?' line, some of the people you mention are Christians. I highly doubt they are bashing Christianity, merely arguing for equality. Like Northstar said, it's unwise to lump your opposition into one group, as it is very unlikely they will all fit the mold.
Angelique
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well there's a difference between regarding people of all religions as equal under the law (and under a truly secular state, according to the definition some people go by, anybody of any religion is going to get their rights infringed upon), and believing that all religions are equal. I do believe everyone is entitled to equal treatment under the law. I do not believe all religions are equal. Otherwise, I'd be a Unitarian, or an atheist. ;)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

well, that being a very long post, requiring a lot of research looking up quotes and links, I started typing it before you even responded, Angelique, it was in response to StarChild.

BUT! I am not saying you, personally, have to regard all religions as equal, but that the government should because it is a neutral body that represents EVERYONE, not just you and those who share your beliefs.
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