StarChild, as idyllic a picture as it sometimes comes off as, the McCarthy era was not exactly the best time to be anything BUT Christian, that does not speak of tolerance to me. It was a time when they tried to paint a picture of their lives being as idyllic and pure as they could, so that the 'commies' would see how superior we were. It was propoganda. If you were a white heterosexual Christian, it was a great time, I'm sure. But not for the other guys. If you professed yourself to be an atheist, you were labeled a communist, and things got very unpleasant, for instance. This isn't a bash against Christianity itself. It was just the most widely followed religion so it floated to the top. It just shows how far propoganda can ingrain itself in peoples minds and lives, and what can happen if we succumb to fear of the unknown or different.
and, frankly, this argument trying to imply that Christianity is persecuted now annoys me. It's just ridiculous that Christians which make up over eighty percent of the US society are somehow being persecuted by the other 20 percent, when that 20 percent is even further divided into other religious groups which do not share a common goal or set of beliefs. How is it that 80 percent of the population is so easily persecuted by 20 percent? when the president and most other government representatives are themselves Christian, no less? Christians are painting themselves as victims when they are not, it's a tactic to put themselves in a place of power, and I find it disgusting. They are only victims because they want to be seen that way.
and I want under God in the pledge because God is the God of all mankind, not just Christians...He loves us all and gives us a choice to love him back!
I don't want to have to say anything thet may make it seem I endorse a god, because I do not. And having that in the pledge (assuming i was American, for a second) would make me feel inferior to Christians, becuase it appears that Christianity (it's the Christian god specifically it's mentioning and you know it) is being endorsed as the 'right' belief to hold. Is my view less important than yours? That's why seperation of Church and State is vitally important. I absolutely and very strongly disagree with the very notion of a god, and it is not fair to me to be REQUIRED to say something that affirms the existence of a god. It places religion, and specifically Christianity ABOVE other beliefs, instead of on equal footing, where it SHOULD be. It is not special, and yet the current language of the pledge makes it seem like it is in the eyes of the government.
I think now is a good time to outline what the founding fathers themselves thought on seperation of Church and State, in particular Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Should also help dispell the notion that the US is a 'Christian nation' since by all appearances the majority of the founding fathers were Deist or agnostic. Jefferson is particularly critical of Christianity...
From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:545
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), quoted from Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings (1984), p. 347
I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)
I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority.
But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the U.S. an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from.... I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct it's exercises, it's discipline, or it's doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting & prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, & the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the constitution has deposited it. I am aware that the practice of my predecessors may be quoted.... Be this as it may, every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, & mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the U.S. and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808
For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law ... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it ... That system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
and now for a little
James Madison... he gets a link because there are far more quotes, and they are ALL relevant, where as i had to sift through a list of general Jefferson quotes to find the ones relevant to seperation of church and state
Jefferson's
letter to the Danbury Baptists association is also quite applicable, as is the
Treaty of Tripoli (in particular, art. 11)
... looking at the state the US is in now, it really saddens me how far they've fallen....
and you know, in your 'can we still be friends?' line, some of the people you mention are Christians. I highly doubt they are bashing Christianity, merely arguing for equality. Like Northstar said, it's unwise to lump your opposition into one group, as it is very unlikely they will all fit the mold.