Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread?)

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

I don't think, however, that there is any excuse for Pat Robertson's words. He has continually been acting as if he was the mouthpiece of God himself, and that's the point here. It's callously insensitive to say that Dover will be struck because of school board decisions, New Orleans was struck because of a gay parade, and one of the world's most beloved leaders was smote because he wanted peace.

He also cited the 1995 assassination of Prime Minister Rahib as an example of God not wanting "his land" divided, however that logic may work out in his head.

Go, Pat Robertson. When are you going to run for president again?
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Angelique
It's not the size of land. It's the whole history behind it. Everyone wants access to their sacred sites, to live wherever they see fit, and so forth, but they don't seem especially keen on allowing others the same right.
Isn't it a shame when people want their rights respected, but refuse to respect the rights of others??

Damn shame....
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by idsunki »

I guess it's probably because when the end times come, whichever religion controls the Holy Land gets like, fifty extra bonus points.

I'd have to say that Pat Robertson (and Jerry Falwell and those of that ilk) are probably one of the biggest reasons I'm glad I'm not the second coming of Christ.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

While in the long run, it may be true that bad people can bring bad things upon themselves, it's simplistic to pin whatever bad things happen on specific actions we don't like. Not to mention un-Biblical. I'm sure Mr. Robertson has read the Book of Job, right?
The point is that stuff happens for whatever reason, and does not always correllate with the things we do. My grandmother did not forcibly evict Gaza settlers, and she also had a stroke.
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Post by kladyelf »

this was in my church's newsletter today:
US Navy Chaplain Gordon Klingenshmitt made his announcement in front of the White House at a recent news conference. Admirals from the Pentagon have stripped Rev. Klingenshmitt of his uniform and forbid him to pray in the name of Jesus in public unless he is wearing civilian clothes. [OT: just as typing this i suddenly pictured Superman looking for a phone booth to change in - LOL] Chaplain Klingenshmitt is asking President Bush to issue an Executive Order allowing for military chaplains to pray according to their individual faith traditions.
Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, Director of the Christian Defence Coalition announced today that he is joining Rev Klingenshmitt in his hunger strike to support religious freedom. Chaplain Klingenshmitt, states, "Today I'm beginning a hunger strike, and this Holy Communion bread willl be my last meal, as i call upon the President to protect religious freedom and issue an executive order allowing chaplains to pray according to their faith traditions. All this week i will pray in front of the White House at 6:00 pm for President Bush to have the courage to sign this order."
(Source - Religion Today Summaries, 22/12/05)
When i read that i couldn't believe my eyes, even went and checkes Snopes.com (couldn't find anything) and then Googled it and found these corresponding articles:

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=4280554&nav=8fap
http://www.wfmy.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=54144
http://www.beliefnet.org/story/181/story_18161_1.html
http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles?id ... 07&cid=771
http://www.wusatv.com/news/news_article ... ryid=45371
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179575,00.html
http://www.family.org/cforum/news/a0039079.cfm

So i thought i'd check out the definition of a chaplain :

definition(s) of a Chaplain:

1. A member of the clergy attached to a chapel.
2. a. A member of the clergy who conducts religious services for an institution, such as a prison or hospital.
b. A member of the clergy who is connected with a royal court or an aristocratic household.
3. A member of the clergy attached to a branch of the armed forces.

(source: http://www.dictionary.com)


I always thought a chaplain was someone you could go to and say "I have a problem/religious need i wanna talk about can we go somewhere and discuss this?" (or words to that effect) and then later after discussing this the chaplain could offer prayer and if OK then the two would pray. (as well as other stuff, like sermons, and weddings and funerals and things)

I fail to see what is wrong with that. Isn't that what Chaplains are for?

Why is the Armed forces offering a chaplain for the troops, (and I know that there aren't just Christian Chaplains out there, I just dunno what's happening with all the ones of other religions) supplying a need and then saying "wait, you can't pray in this way in public."

Sorry about the humungous post. Its probably going to get sorted out fairly quickly, (at least i hope GW Shrub will sort it out - it is after all a freedom of speech and freedom of religion thing,) but i just find it rather sad and very disappointing
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

^ And it's precisely for reasons like these that people get in a lather over "Happy Holidays!" (Don't worry, I won't get started on that again!)
Where I can see how it is important to limit prayers to denominationally non-specific invocations is when the chaplain has been specifically requested to pray over a meeting of a variety of denominations. BUT, as there are chaplains of every religion available, I don't see how allowing each of them to pray in their own specific fashion can hurt. If anything, it could serve to increase awareness of religious diversity if chaplains aren't all compelled to invoke only a non-specific entity that may or may not even be a higher power and may or may not even exist, depending entirely on the beliefs of the other people in the room.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by kladyelf

Why is the Armed forces offering a chaplain for the troops, (and I know that there aren't just Christian Chaplains out there, I just dunno what's happening with all the ones of other religions) supplying a need and then saying "wait, you can't pray in this way in public."
This actually made for some fascinating reading...

It turns out that the millitary has chaplains supporting over 50 different religions including wicca and various other pagan forms. And while each chaplain is answerable to their own faith's laws and governances, while serving their duty as a millitary officer they must simultaneously serve all of these religions.

This means that in an open millitary religious service the chaplain must attend to members who believe in God, gods, godesses, spirits, or perhaps no dieties at all. How is this possible? The millitary has adopted a form of theology called "Totalitarian Pluralism"; it is another name for "Univeralist Unitarianism" which is the religion taught in the Harvard Seminary. Universalist Unitarianism teaches that all religions are ultimately equal and that all paths will lead to heaven if followed. When in uniform, a millitary chaplain conducting an open service is essentially a Universalist Unitarian minister.

Now, as usual, the facts are a little glossed over by the media in this Navy Chaplain's case. Lt. Chaplain Klingenschmitt is an Evangelical (read: Born Again) Christian Minister. He doesn't necessarily believe in the teachings of Pluralism. He believes that in order to get to heaven, you have to take the path of Jesus. So, while he may have been an excellent advocate for all faiths and a very good Christian chaplain, he was not holding open services that served the needs of all sailors. In other words, despite 14 years in the millitary AND knowing the policy, he insisted on preaching Jesus to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc...

They make it sound like he was being desciminated against, but I'm not sure that was truly the case. If he wanted to, he could hold an Evangelical Episcopal Service for sailors of that deomination to attend just like a Roman Catholic Chaplain could hold Mass or a Jewish Chaplain could hold Shabbat services. These would be done out of uniform though, in accordance with the proper dress of that religion. He could however, council or pray privately with a sailor in uniform and talk about Jesus all he wanted, as long as that was what the sailor wanted as well. So I'm not sure what the problem was other than he seemed to be a squeaky wheel in an organization (the millitary) that doesn't like squeaky wheels.

The policy change he's asking Bush to make would make it possible for him to be on a ship, preaching the gospel of Jesus every week to everyone whether they want it or not. I'm not sure that's such a good thing.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, it's the very idea of forced Totalitarian Pluralism that actually violates religious freedom. Part of most religions is the acknowledgement that all religions are different and may not be equally true in every aspect. So if what you're saying is indeed the case, we have an example of the government forcing people to preach a religion (Universalist Unitarianism) that they do not believe in.
I'd have to ask an old friend who recently returned from Iraq about this- as a Catholic Chaplain, he should have some insight. Like did people have to stop calling him Father when he was in his fatigues?
Regardless of religion, however, people must be treated as equal. And the right for military chaplains to be true to their own beliefs should not be limited just to Unitarians. And really, I do not see how it's possible for any chaplain of any one faith to serve adequately people of all or no faith. You can't please everyone all the time, right? And I think it's only reasonable that if you go to an "open" service officiated by, say, a Wiccan, you should get a Wiccan perspective.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread?)

Post by Hsu »

(Okay okay, I'll step into this thread.)

The military is not trying to violate religious freedom. The idea is that there is a religious service for everyone. Obviously it can't be done exactly to everyone's standards of practice, but if you join the military, this should be something you would know.
If you let the Catholic Chaplain hold Catholic service, under his rights in the Constitution, then you have to then have a Chaplain representing every religion, and that just isn't practical.
The military is not a forced position, these people signed up for it willingly and know what to expect from it. If I were to apply to a school that had a "No public praying" policy and I consented to that, I couldn't very well create a fuss and claim my rights were being infringed upon.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread?)

Post by Angelique »

>If you let the Catholic Chaplain hold Catholic service, under his rights in the Constitution, then you have to then have a Chaplain representing every religion, and that just isn't practical.

Actually, that's kind of what the military is trying to do. And actually, you could create a fuss. The policy, whether you consent to abide by it or not, is inherently discriminatory.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Angelique

Actually, that's kind of what the military is trying to do. And actually, you could create a fuss. The policy, whether you consent to abide by it or not, is inherently discriminatory.
Yes, but if you've willingly signed away your rights, you have no right TO make a fuss.

I mean, what idiot signs away rights that make a difference in their life? Honestly, if someone does that, they obviously didn't care to begin with....or they need to learn to read...

BTW Angelique, if you are going to quote other people, use the quote button up at the top of each post..it just makes things a bit less confusing.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Saint Kurt »

Hsu's got it right. You can't think of it like a civilian, particularly with the Navy where these guys ship out for six months with only one chaplain. They don't get to choose. I think the idea is that both the chaplain and the sailor compromise a little bit when they go aboard ship.

It's not a perfect solution, but at least the military is attempting to serve everyone.

Either way, the policy has been in place for a while. Going on a hunger strike over it seems a little extreme to me.

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

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The way I am understanding it is with only one (or perhaps on a really big ship two) chaplains on board if they were only to preach their religion, where in the heck does that leave all the other followers of other religions? Isn't that discriminating against sailors of other religions by only providing religious services for some sailors and not others? SO do you ask ONE person to just be a little more open during their sermon and to try and keep things a little more generic so that everyone else is happy, or do you feel sorry for the one person and say screw it to the other (dozens or hundreds) of other people that are going to be excluded.

The other thing that drives me absolutely batty about religions is this whole elitist thing (not that all do it - but it does come up). It totally strikes me as the "my way or the highway" attitude. I cannot count how many times I have had people sweetly tell me that I am damned because I don't attend church, or had premarital whoopie or other things. Now - not all people are like that and I do really enjoy most of the people that I know that are fairly religious. But let's face it - some are bullies. That is frankly what I think when I hear about these pompous fundie leaders - that they are nothing more than control freaks looking to bully everyone else into doing what they want them to do.

Religion is big business. If you can attract more followers and get them to give you more money, you can be more powerful. A lot of religious organizations use this money for very good projects, so I am not knocking the fact that people donate money. However telling people that they must tithe or they will be punished in some shape or form to me is bullying.

I could go on all day on how nuts this all makes me. And I consider myself a Christian BTW - but this is why I refuse to attend church. I just can't stand the bullies (and while the pastor may not be one, and 99% of the congregation may not be - I can virtually guarantee that there will be one in the group. For whatever reason this seems to be the more socially "acceptable" bullying - telling people that what they believe is wrong and therefore they will be suffering untold horrors unless they do everything that they tell you to do.)

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Well, there's no point in belonging to any religion or even claiming no religion unless you think it's right.
What I have a problem with- and this is as the daughter and granddaughter of two airman and a Navy Seabee, is the very idea that defending our rights requires us to sign them away. What's the point then?
And there's a matter of rights. We have a right to free speech and freedom of religion. This covers our right to say what we believe. The Constitution makes no mention of any right to not hear things we disagree with. And isn't it odd that we go out of our way to respect the "right" of people to not hear certain messages by limiting the right of others to practice their religion?
The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercize thereof." No exceptions, not even for military chaplains.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Hsu »

Originally posted by Angelique
The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercize thereof." No exceptions, not even for military chaplains.
Right. Which is why the military isn't establishing any one religion. They are attempting to serve the needs of their soldiers by offering a one size fits all service. Obviously this isn't perfect, but it's been working so far.

In a way, this is the same thing as the "Happy Holidays" scandal. They're attempting to make everyone happy, and a select few are actually angered about it. It's silly really. :)
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Post by Angelique »

Well, it actually is kind of forcing non-Unitarian clergy to preach Unitarianism. Which is a little bit different.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread?)

Post by idsunki »

Paws said "premarital whoopie." I hereby agree to everything she may say or ever have said.

Also, Hsu makes some pretty cool points. I won't list them one by one, because I can't find one to disagree with, and saying much more than "I agree with all of this" would be redundant.

"Premarital whoopie."

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

Originally posted by Angelique
Well, it actually is kind of forcing non-Unitarian clergy to preach Unitarianism. Which is a little bit different.
Not quite. The government is between a rock and a hard place here, no solution available to them is perfect, but they are choosing the better solution, imo. The issue here was "forbid him to pray in the name of Jesus in public unless he is wearing civilian clothes." note that he's still permitted to do whatever he likes while in civilian clothes. He can stand on a street corner praising Jesus and trying to convert everyone he sees sun up till sun down if he so desires, just as long as he is not doing it in his roll as a chaplain. If they are to allow the chaplain to preach whatever he wants, to pray to Jesus while in his militaty position, that is in effect endorsing Christianity above other religions. No, the government is not choosing which religion he is preaching. But as a representative of government body, the chaplain can not allow one religion to be represented above any other. I mean, lets say he wasn't Christian, he was Hindu. So he's up there directing his service praising Ganesh and the other gods, and all the soldiers who are not Hindu are sitting there not having thier spiritual beliefs addressed in the slightest. Can't you see something wrong with that situation? Yeah, the chaplains rights aren't being tampered with in the slightest, but what about all the other soldiers? As Emily mentioned, Unitarian Universalism isn't a religion like Christianity is, since it believes ALL beliefs are equally valid, where as Christianity and most other religions teach they are the ONLY way to Heaven. So it is the better choice. It's either that or no chaplain at all.

And, i mean, it's a JOB. maybe not quite in the sense that civilians think of a 'job', but essentially... he is officially appointed to his position by the government. they have EVERY right to say what is and is not acceptable behavior in that position.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
I cannot count how many times I have had people sweetly tell me that I am damned because I don't attend church, or had premarital whoopie or other things.
ROFL. The cat's meow indeed. Welcome back Paws; we missed you. ;)
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Saint Kurt »

Originally posted by Bamfette
As Emily mentioned, Unitarian Universalism isn't a religion like Christianity is, since it believes ALL beliefs are equally valid, where as Christianity and most other religions teach they are the ONLY way to Heaven.
It seems that to continue this disscussion, it would be wise to education one's self a little on Universal Unitarianism:

http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/uufaq.html

Quoting from this website:
At a Unitarian Universalist worship service or meeting, you are likely to find members whose positions on faith may be derived from a variety of religious beliefs: Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, naturist, atheist, or agnostic. Members might tell you that they are religious humanists, liberal Christians, or world religionists.

All these people, and others who label their beliefs still differently, are faithful Unitarian Universalists committed to the practice of free religion. We worship, sing, play, study, teach, and work for social justice together as congregations-all the while remaining strong in our individual convictions.
It's not for me, but I think it's a very positive message they have. Plus it's important to note that members of the congregation may worship together, they individually adhere to their own faiths.


And, i mean, it's a JOB. maybe not quite in the sense that civilians think of a 'job', but essentially... he is officially appointed to his position by the government. they have EVERY right to say what is and is not acceptable behavior in that position.
Actually, more interesting than the story of Lt. Chaplain Klingenschmitt's protest, was a story I found about him helping an Orthodox Jewish sailor. It's a long story, but I'll try and sum it up because it hits all the points this disscussion.

The Chaplain's role is to support the religious needs of all the sailors on the ship he is assigned. That means more than presiding over religious services; the chaplain sees to any other special needs a sailor may have such as special meal requirements or holidays off. In the case of this Jewish sailor, he was very religious and desired to eat kosher food during a six month tour of duty on an air craft carrier. In addition he requested friday nights and saturdays off for the Sabbath. It was Lt. Chap. K's job to arrange all this and to be his advocate as well.

Now this sailor was very very Orthodox. He was a member of the Chabad Lubavitch sect which are very strict. Besides the kosher food and keeping the Sabbath he wanted to wear a yarmulke and tallis (prayer shawl) while in uniform, grow his bread and sideburns (in accordance with the laws in Leviticus), and a variety of other things relating to his religion that were incompatible with being in the military.

There were a lot of problems. The Chaplain could only get the equivalent of one kosher MRE per day for the sailor so he ended up losing about 20 pounds while at sea rather than eat non-kosher food. He couldn't secure every single Sabbath day off for the sailor either and the sailor was often forced to pay his shipmates to trade shifts. Back at the base, the Jewish Chaplains were somewhat unsympathetic, pointing out to the sailor that he was, after all, in the millitary. In the end, both the sailor and the Lt. Chap. K were written up for poor performance for this. (The sailor for failure to wear proper uniform and the Chaplain for failure to counsel him, help him adjust to military life etc...)

To me it is clear that this young man did not belong in the Navy. I had a co-worker who was once in the Navy when I lived in WA and every summer we got to go to the Bremerton Naval base and tour a Trident Submarine. I didn't think it was that big a deal but, he must have had some serious clout because it turns out that I am one of a handful of civilians to ever board an armed trident sub more than once. Each time I did, 3 things shocked me: 1) The number of steps in the arming sequence for the warheads (there's no way one will ever be fired by accident) 2) The utter crappiness of the computers 3) The realities of the military lifestyle.

To a civilian it was totally incomprehensible how anyone could spend 6 months in that thing without going completely insane. Imagine no day or night, that when you're on duty someone else is sleeping in your bunk, there's communal everything with absolutely no personal space and you're always closed in by walls and pipes etc. The sleeping quarters were actually at the same level with there the missles were so that each bunk room had a nuclear warhead on either side. There is barely room for any individuality at all let alone the ability to observe a complex religion like Orthodox Judaism.

My feeling is that is you want to be an ultra orthodox Jew, you shouldn't be in the Navy because your life and your beliefs will always be at odds with each other. The sailor seemed to feel the same and asked Lt. Chap. Klingenschmitt to help him get and early discharge due to incompatibility. This was not granted and the sailor was forced to compromise practicing his beliefs for one more year before leaving the Navy and going to Yeshiva to study to be a Rabbi.

It seems to me that Lt. Chaplain Klingenschmitt is in the same position as this sailor. He knows the policies. He can stay and follow them or leave and preach in the church of his choice. Is it really reasonable to ask the military to compromise their rules for a few individuals? What if instead of an Orthodox Jew the sailor was a Rastafarian, would it then be appropriate for him to smoke marjuana on the ship for the purposes of his religion?

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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

All these what-ifs? No, I wouldn't have a problem if a Hindu chaplain praised Ganesh during a service. It would not bother me. In fact, I might even expect it. That's the thing. I expect people who profess a certain religion to live by that and preach that, and it bothers me when the government forces people to do otherwise.
As for the Rastafarian smoking ganja on a submarine, that could create some safety hazard- besides the fact that everyone has to breathe the same close, recycled air. But praying in Jesus' name while wearing the uniform never hurt anyone.
And I find the plight of the Lubavitcher sailor, that he couldn't get sympathy even from Jewish chaplains, rather appalling.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Bamfette »

But not everyone will (or should have to) react or think the same way! that's the thing. just because you, personally, would not have a problem with it does not mean others will feel the same way. i mean, obviously there are several in this very thread who don't feel the same way. So again they're defaulting to a point of neutrality as it has the best chance of ofending the least ammount of people.

I look at it and i see the needs of many outweighing the needs of the few (ONE!) the chaplain is there to provide a service to ALL who come to him. That's his job. every soldier deserves that his belifs be respected, not JUST the Chaplain. He's there to cater to everyone's spiritual needs, not just one sect. That's all there is to it. He was never FORCED to be a chaplain in the first place, he could have just served his time as a regular soldier if catering to more than just Christianity offended him. So he did have a choice, and he knew what he was getting in to. If his desires to preach Christianity to the exclusion of other religions are catered to, what is that saying to all the other soldiers that are NOT Christian? to many it would be giving the message that the Chaplains Christian beliefs are more worthy of bending the rules for tan their religion, thus giving the impression that the government is saying Christianity is 'right' while the rest are 'wrong' and they absolutely CAN NOT do that. If they do, it becomes a slippery slope situation where 'well, they allowed this, so why not take it a step further...' and that's what could lead to a theocracy if it goes far enough. there HAS to be lines drawn on what is and is not acceptable.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Angelique »

Or it could lead to the complete opposite, like questioning why we expect anyone, not just a Christian, to sweep their beliefs under the rug in the service of a country that prides itself on religious freedom. I don't want the government to grant any one religion or philosophy favored status. Including Christianity. And including Unitarianism or secular humanism.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Angelique
Or it could lead to the complete opposite, like questioning why we expect anyone, not just a Christian, to sweep their beliefs under the rug in the service of a country that prides itself on religious freedom. I don't want the government to grant any one religion or philosophy favored status. Including Christianity. And including Unitarianism or secular humanism.
Having the government cater to one religion more than another would encourage religious freedom? I really, really find that unlikely.

The chaplain as a soldier is the personification of the government. He chose to be such. And as such he may not preach one religion over another; that would be a violation of church and state. It's actually pretty simple.
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Schiavo autopsy finally released... (the new religion thread

Post by Hsu »

This bring up a very interesting point. I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and as some of you may or may not know, we maintain political neutrality, which includes not participating in military service.
The reasons behind this is in keeping with the idea that Jesus was politically neutral. "No part of this world" and whatnot. See there's no way to be in the military and be able to practice our beliefs the way we believe we should.
Now there are no JWs joining the Navy, then creating a fuss when their rights are breached. Wel all just stay out of it.

In the same fashion, many of the right wing, conservative, super faithful, whatever you want to call it, Christians should just not have signed up if they expected to be able to serve God appropriately. But since they did, tough cookies.

Do you really think God even wants his name attached to a nuclear vessel? ;)
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