This is revolting

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This is revolting

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:56 pm

Image
Taken in Cincinatti.

Dear rest of America,

9/11 is nothing to be celebrated.

Sincerely,

New York
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Postby Freak » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:59 pm

Dear cake,

It's "celebrate".

No love,

Freak
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Postby Indigo_Lady » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:04 am

I lost a college classmate on one of the flights that hit the World Trade Center, and my cousin's wife was in the Pentagon at the time it was hit (She's okay). As someone who was directly impacted by the event, I find that extremely disgusting. What was that person thinking?
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Postby Crawler » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:37 am

First: No, that's not acceptable. 9/11 is not something to celebrate.

However, there are a couple things that lead to this sort of thing that are, admittedly, a little hard to understand, especially when you were personally impacted, either by living in or near New York, or knowing someone directly involved in the tragedy.

To most of the country, especially the "fly over zone," New York is not really a real place. Most of the people in this country have never visited New York, let alone lived there, and even the ones that have visited can often see New York as a place people go, not a place people live. To those that have never been there, New York is a backdrop for tv shows, comics, and movies, as imaginary as Metropolis or Spider-Man, just with a real world counterpart. That is the New York most Americans know: The magical semi-imaginary one that plays backdrop to half of pop culture. Combine that with the reality that, for most Americans, 9/11 was something that happened on TV, and you get a misspelled and inappropriate cake in Cincinnati.

The other thing to remember is that there's a whole generation of adults who were literally children in 2001. It's different for those of us that were adults a decade ago than for those that were 8, 9, 10, 11 years old. I mean, I remember when I was 8, watching the Berlin Wall come down...but I didn't understand the significance of what I was seeing until much later, and a lot of my peers never understood. That's how 9/11 is to a lot of people...a vague memory of something that happened when they were a kid, a long way away, that made everyone upset.

Sadly, to the vast majority of Americans under 25, 9/11 isn't really real. And that's how you get cakes like that.
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Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:48 am

I think maybe a vast majority of Americans under say 22. Maybe 21.

I'm 25 in October, but I can safely say my sister (6 years my junior) is in tears everytime 9/11 footage comes up. Admittedly a lot of her friends may roll eyes and say "Okay, we get it! People died!" but for her, it's a brutal reminder.


That said --

There is such a thing as dark comedy and I hate to say it but it can be what helps some people cope.

I don't know if anyone knows this story, but during one of the early (perhaps the first?) Comedy Central Roasts, Gilbert Gottfried went on a tirade telling the "Aristocrats" joke.

Here's the deal with why this is relevant -- this Roast premiered sometime within a month or so (I want to say mid October?) of September 11th, 2001. No one knew how to laugh yet. It was very difficult, many people were finding it hard to watch something funny when something so terrible had just happened. New Yorkers or not (an example of NY'ers not being funny during that time is SNL. They finally broke that chain free in late October -- that's another story altogether.)


Anyways, Gottfried figured out everyone before him was holding back. They weren't really "ROASTING" like they could. So he got up, and did what he does best.
He got dark. He got rude. He got lewd. And he told the dirtiest, most unprofessional, most obnoxious version of that joke I have ever heard to this day (with the exception of Bob Saget's during the documentary titled after the joke).

As sick as that cake may seem, some people need to laugh at something to get through the pain. In my opinion at least, it feels a lot more insensitive at this time, so close to the ten year mark.





[Edited on 10/9/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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Postby Angelique » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:25 am

mmm.... 9-11 affected New York most, but DC and Shanksville also got hit, and people from all over suffered- 10% of casualties weren't even from the US. And nearly every community in this country has someone who lost a couple hundred "brothers" in the firefighter or police officer sense. Being from "flyover country" myself, I don't accept not being from New York as an excuse for being tacky.

I'm not in the military, but I know "Happy Memorial Day" is also not in great taste.

It's just a matter of how well educated one is on history and good manners.
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Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:27 am

I can concur to that. That's another great point.

It really is just how well taught someone is in terms of how to be properly respectful with that sort of thing. I try to avoid saying "Happy Memorial Day" (can't think of a single scenario where it came up actually), but I think that's a prime example.
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Postby Crawler » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:38 am

I absolutely was not excusing it. Just pointing out that a whole lot of the country, despite being tangentally effected by it, don't think of it quite the same way as you'd commonly think.

I'm from the heart of fly-over country and I think of it much the same why Nacht, from New York does. But a whole lot of people don't.

Also, you were older. You were self-aware and with a real grip on the difference between reality and fantasy. Those two things are absent in an astonishing number of people.
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Postby Angelique » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:02 am

Well, my 10 year old son also doesn't think 9-11 is something to celebrate. Of course, he knows a lot of firefighters and military families, and he's a sensitive sort anyway. Again, it boils down to how well even a kid is taught about history and manners. Think about Pearl Harbor Day. Yes, it was way back in 1941 when Hawaii got bombed. But no kid even today considers it something to celebrate- if they know what happened that day.
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:17 pm

I can't excuse it, and I don't really care what the rest of the country thinks or feels about 9/11 or New York. It's not funny, it has nothing to do with humor, and it's just completely disgusting. I still remember that day so vividly, I remember the terror in the weeks after, I remember the smell of the burning towers and the smoke that settled on my school campus a day or so after 9/11 because the wind had changed. Being in complete lock down, seeing my city, my home under direct attack, and watching the iconic skyline crumble. I'm not sure if people outside NY understand what it's like to be a NYer, but at the same time they need to pull their heads out of their asses. I wasn't alive when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, but I don't see "Happy Hiroshima Day!" cakes on August 6th, nor do I believe it'd be appropriate either.

What really makes me angry is that the utter lack of understanding by the rest of the country, and yet the consistency with which the rest of the country uses 9/11 as a battle cry. "LET'S GIT THEM MUSLIMS!" It's disgusting, it uses a horrific day which took the lives of over 3000 of my friends and neighbors and makes it a blanket excuse for bigotry. Since the day of, so many MORE lives have been lost in the name of 9/11 almost to no gain. I'm tired of the crazed, irrational patriotism that this day has created in the rest of the country, places and people that were probably just itching for SOME reason to hate and go to war. And I hate that as we get further from the date, we get closer to 9/11 becoming another Memorial Day. Hey dude bro, I'll bring a 12 pack of Miller and we'll play beer pong! Best 9/11 day ever! I said this before, way back when they were talking about making 9/11 a national holiday, in the years after (I may have even said it here), make it a holiday and the solemnity of the time will be replaced with BBQ's and TV show marathons. Disgraceful.
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Postby Jeremus » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:27 pm

I don't have a lot of computer time so I've got to be brief. And I'm angry and I promised myself I'd never post when I'm angry so I'll apologize now.

First of all I agree with everyone's outrage about the pie. 9/11 is NOT a day to celebrate.

But, to say that the rest of the country doesn't understand is wrong. No, I wasn't there in NY (or DC) that day....all I was able to do was watch it on tv and relay what was happening to people who couldn't watch it. These terrorists attacked my country and as i remember, NY and Dc are still part of the U.S. Please DO NOT equate "the rest of the country" with bigots and DO NOT equate patriotism with that either. I"m from "the rest of the country" and I DON'T hate muslims and I'm not looking for a reason to hate someone and I'm sick of people saying that "you don't understand" if I'm not a New Yorker or an east coaster! I understand plenty and bigotry comes from ALL parts of this country....including NY. So please don't pretend that you're better than everyone else because some idiot put "celebrate 9/11" on a stupid cake.



[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:24 pm

First off, I think it's smart for everyone to not post when angry. Very good position.

Secondly, I will concede, I made generalizations. But here's the tick: there are exceptions to every rule. Do I think every person outside NY is a bigot? Of course not! But the trend seems to be that the loudest, most flag waving "OUR COLORS DON'T RUN, WE'RE MURIKA!" are. So here's the issue. The issue is not that people think Americans are bigoted, it's that we Americans who AREN'T don't fight hard enough against those who are. And that's an issue.

And I stand by my statement: If you weren't in NY, you don't know what it was like. Now, I'm not saying you have NO capacity to understand the severity of the event. What I am saying is that watching a football game on TV doesn't tell you what it's like to play football. There was SO much more to that day than what was showed on television, there was SO much more to the days that followed and the weeks and months, and there's an intrinsic fear and horror that brought this city to its knees. And NY is a tough place. Just THAT ALONE was terrifying.

If your neighbors house burns down, you can feel for them. You can hold them as their world goes up in flames, you can help them sift through the debris, and you can offer them support and comfort. But that doesn't mean you have any idea what it's like to have your house burn down.

Also, please, no one is saying anyone is better than anyone. I think this is where taking that break and not posting when angry comes in. This day still effects me incredibly deeply, it still effects NYC very deeply. You have no idea what the city's been like this past few days, and tomorrow it will be something else. It's a national tragedy, this is the absolute truth. But NY bears the scar, and it always will.
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Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:07 am

"It's AMERICA!! 'A'-MERICA! Only ONE 'Murica!"

That's something you hear a lot since 9.11.01 though.

That day pretty much changed our country, let alone the world. Anyone who had racist ideals about that region of the world (or racism backing up their beliefs on illegal immigration) were suddenly validated because of this one single atrocity by a radical, fundamentalist, religious group.

If I can find the Jon Stewart quote on it later, I will. It's not even worth trying to summarize, it's too brilliant for summary.
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Postby Angelique » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:05 am

There is a feeling worse than seeing your home attacked, in my opinion,, and that's seeing your long-distance family attacked on TV, and you're too far away and powerless to do anything about it.

I hate that feeling of helplessness more than anything. I think most people do. Some joined the military, got involved in various types of community service, joined their local fire departments, or otherwise responded in a constructive way. They went from being helpless to more helpful. Others, rather than let it motivate a positive transformation, lash out at others- whether Muslims, "the rest of the country," or anyone who is somehow different. I don't see that as doing anyone any good.

But crass, ignorant, tacky slogans on cookies are so deserving of a lashing....
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:33 pm

There is a feeling worse than seeing your home attacked, in my opinion,, and that's seeing your long-distance family attacked on TV, and you're too far away and powerless to do anything about it.


I could not disagree more. In fact, I find it quite tactless of people to try to say they were more effected from a distance than the people who were actually there. I do not consider myself more effected than the people who were in the buildings, or the people who were downtown. Upon rereading this statement, I cannot believe it was uttered. The pain of those who watched it on TV miles away is greater than the pain of those who lost their friends, families, safety, health and (for a time) homes? That is a brash statement that really justifies everything I've said to this point.

Hurricane Katrina effected me, New Orleans is a city I love and I hated to see it in such a state. However, I would never have the gall to claim I was more effected than those we saw on TV holding signs on rooftops, or being stranded in the Super Dome. Because, while I can have compassion for those and want to help, I did not experience this and therefor did not suffer what they suffered. I can't imagine telling someone who lost everything in New Orleans that MY suffering while watching helplessly on TV was greater than theirs.

I hate that feeling of helplessness more than anything. I think most people do. Some joined the military, got involved in various types of community service, joined their local fire departments, or otherwise responded in a constructive way. They went from being helpless to more helpful. Others, rather than let it motivate a positive transformation, lash out at others- whether Muslims, "the rest of the country," or anyone who is somehow different. I don't see that as doing anyone any good.


I rethought responding to this, and find it not worth it. I'd rather just reel in the absurdity of this entire post.

[Edited on 11/9/11 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Postby Angelique » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:02 pm

Please don't read into my posts what I didn't say. I qualified all that with "in my opinion." I said there is no feeling I hate worse than feeling helpless. I said I think most others feel the same way.

People who weren't from New York also lost friends and family. People not from New York are still losing their lives, safety, health. Most of the people responsible for rolling up Al Qaeda aren't from New York. I never said I was more affected, but I think the change in my life that was triggered shows that I was, nonetheless, affected. You come across as belittling the impact this has had on non New Yorkers, when friends and neightbors of mine have been dealing with IED attacks, losing limbs and even lives to make sure this doesn't happen again. As for you, you were right where I would have wanted to be on that day- in a better position to meet the immediate needs of those directly and immediately impacted. Did you help your friends and neighbors? Because I would have liked to do that, and I frankly loathed that I couldn't. You can't speak for how each individual is emotionally affected.
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:13 pm

Angelique wrote:Please don't read into my posts what I didn't say. I qualified all that with "in my opinion." I said there is no feeling I hate worse than feeling helpless. I said I think most others feel the same way.

People who weren't from New York also lost friends and family. People not from New York are still losing their lives, safety, health. Most of the people responsible for rolling up Al Qaeda aren't from New York. I never said I was more affected, but I think the change in my life that was triggered shows that I was, nonetheless, affected. You come across as belittling the impact this has had on non New Yorkers, when friends and neightbors of mine have been dealing with IED attacks, losing limbs and even lives to make sure this doesn't happen again. As for you, you were right where I would have wanted to be on that day- in a better position to meet the immediate needs of those directly and immediately impacted. Did you help your friends and neighbors? Because I would have liked to do that, and I frankly loathed that I couldn't. You can't speak for how each individual is emotionally affected.


You seem to think it's rather black and white here. As if people could jump in and run into NYC and help. That's not the case. Did I help? I did what I can as a college student who was on lockdown on her campus for days. I offered places to stay for those who were around me, I stayed on a line for 4 hours to give blood (only to find out I couldn't). But really, I owe absolutely no explanation to you.

I understand what the rest of this country has given in response to 9/11. But I am talking about the day itself. So please, stick to the topic at hand. And I am not belittling anyone, I am simply saying, over and over that one will not have the same understanding of an event if they don't directly experience it, as those that do. I have no idea how this is even an argument.

And you are entitled to express your opinion, just as I'm entitled to disagree with it.
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Postby Crawler » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:32 pm

First, NEVER was I defending or excusing it. It's, as the thread title says, revolting. It's stupid, it's inexcusable, it's something that should be obvious to everyone, but clearly is not.

I was just explaining how you end up with bullshit like that.

And a few of you are kind of proving my point, and my point (and, I think, Nacht's) was this: It's different if you were immediately impacted than if you weren't.

I'm from Colorado. I live in Spokane. I've been all over the middle of the country. I watched the second plane hit live. I've lived in New York post-9/11. I've visited Ground Zero. I had friends whose parents were in the towers that day. And so I can tell you I don't feel the same way that New Yorkers do.

It's not that I don't understand, that I don't feel terrible about it, that I wasn't effected. I do, I do, and I was. I would have flipped my shit at the people who made that cake. But "I watched it and visited the site, so I know how you feel," or "I'm American, so I know how you feel," or even "I knew people who were effected, so I know how you feel," is false.

I don't truly know how New Yorkers feel. Not because I'm stupid or cold, but because I'm not a New Yorker. The thing is that, yes, 9/11 have far reaching effects; everything from the multi-national victim list, to the planes being fill with people from other cities, to the fireman & policemen brotherhood. However, it happened to every last New Yorker. And when the TV here started showing programs again, they still had an absolutely constant reminder right in the middle of everything.

So I don't know how they feel and I'm incapable of feeling the same way. To believe that I do, no matter how I feel, is presumptuous, rude, and hollow.
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Postby Angelique » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:39 pm

Listen. The verifiable facts are that some people from "the rest of the country" were profoundly affected. I completely changed my life around because of that- new career, new everything. I lived near an airport at the time- and the approaching fall harvest meant farmers would soon apply what we not so affectionately call Methylethyl Death to kill any nematodes and other pests in their fields. We wondered how easy it would be for someone to take a cropduster and dump that payload on schools, churches, shopping centers, parks instead. I live near a nuclear research facility and have family and friends who work there, so we were under extremely high alert- and were once again with the recent rumors of dirty bombs. And what with anthrax in the mail and all that, nobody in their right mind thought for a moment that this was just New York's thing and that those of us far from the east coast were any safer. I think most people felt like we were all targeted and wondered which town or city would be next.

Meanwhile, what do you make of the folks lighting off fireworks last night in lower Manhattan? Some of my buddies in NYC were very unhappy about that.

[Edited on 11/9/2011 by Angelique]
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:53 pm

I really don't care to discuss it with you further. Clearly we will have to agree to disagree.

Crawler, thank you. It's good to know some people in the rest of the country DO get it.
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Postby Angelique » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Disagree, but for the right reasons. I never said I was more affected than anyone. It's just wrong to assume how 9-11 affected someone based on where they were at the time. Just as insensitive in a way, particularly to those not from New York who lost family or friends, to those who wondered if they'd be targeted next,, or to those whose lives were otherwise permanently changed. There are people all over the country, all over the world even, whose lives are permanently and profoundly changed because of 9-11. And there are insensitive clods all over, even in New York. (Ask firefighters about how they feel about being specifically not invited to the memorial events today.) My point is that especially on this day, it's not a good time to lash out in anger at the majority of the country. You're right. I don't know how you feel, and I won't unless you choose to tell me. But you don't know how I feel, and you won't unless you choose to open your mind to the idea that even Idaho rednecks can feel scared, threatened, angry, very empathetic, and prompted to make some drastic changes by ongoings on the other side of the country. None of us live in a vacuum.
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This is revolting

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:22 pm

Moving on...

I've been passing this everyday on my way into and out of my neighborhood, and I figured I might as well share it. This is a high school in my neighborhood that planted a flag for each person who died who was from the area. The picture doesn't do justice to how many flags there are, but you can get the scope of it. I think it was a nice tribute, and I find it really hits home.

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"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€
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This is revolting

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:22 am

I'm watching the Robert DeNiro hosted special of the documentary that was shot (and occurred during the events of 9/11).

And as crazy as it is, I keep getting the entire last two Green Day albums stuck in my head.

I've been listening to 21st Century Breakdown/American Idiot like all day. Specifically the songs:

Song Of The Century/21st Century Breakdown

Wake Me Up When September Ends

Holiday ("This song is not Anti-American, this song is Anti-WAR!")

Know Your Enemy

21 Guns

and of course:

American Eulogy

All of these songs are wildly relevant to me. Being I'm at that (unfortunately) perfect age where I completely understood what was going on, but mass-social-media has almost completely desensitized my entire generation from really reacting to it the right way. We used fear and anger and hatred to react in a way that is (if you be it) the most UnChristian thing I can think of.

Just today I got told that the new kid (who is in fact african-american) is a "lazy N-youknowwhat- just like the rest of 'em." and my manager Ahmed is always called a "Crazy fucking Saudi" even though he's from Morocco.

I realize this stuff ran rampant before in the U.S., but I hate that our country uses this terrible day as validation for continuing this hatred. It's unethical, it's unfair, and it's flat out wrong.
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This is revolting

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:36 am

Someone made mention of John Stewart in here, and honestly I don't feel like reading up, but here is the clip:

http://youtu.be/Bb3gInJAY6g

This was the only 9/11 related thing I watched today, and I'm so glad I did. It's beautiful, and I remember watching it way back when it first aired. It's as poignant as it ever was, and the very end where he talks about the view from his apartment really gets me.

It reminds me so much of the time after 9/11, that month or so if just complete, paralyzing fear. The way everyone would stop and stare at the sky when a plane flew overhead, after they'd reopened the airways. The nonstop 24/7 news coverage that lasted days. And then after that, the fear.

One of my most vivid memories of those days after is the fog that settled on my campus one morning, about 2 days after the towers fell. A very unusual fog, paired with the smell of burning metal. And the realization that this was from the towers burning, the wind had carried it to us, and we were enveloped in it. I'll never forget that.

[Edited on 12/9/11 by NachtcGleiskette]
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€
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This is revolting

Postby Slarti » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:32 pm

Not to relaunch a debate that was getting a bit hostile, but I think part of the controversy in this post is semantic perception. I see 9-11 as two separate yet intertwined events – the actual in-your-face attacks on New York City and Washington D.C. and then 9-11 as a shared event and its aftermath.

Do I know what it was like to be a New Yorker, to be able that day to smell the burning towers and know my hometown was under attack? No, absolutely not. Was I deeply affected by national tragedy, to know my country was under attack, and by all the uncertainty that came after? Yes. So, I think people are talking about two different things in this thread, but upsetting each other by equating and comparing them.

I’m one of those yokels in flyover country. The morning of the attacks, I was listening to the radio on my way to work. It was just after the first plane hit, and the morning rock station shock jockey was joking that the pilot must have been drunk. Then the second plane hit and everything got very quiet before they cut to the national news broadcast.

By the time I got to work, the CNN Web site had gone down from the overload. We’d heard the Pentagon had been hit, but there were rumors the White House was on fire, too. Nobody knew what was going on or how many planes were hijacked and in the air. We had to scramble to send a reporter to the international airport when the order came down to ground all air traffic. Someone stole a television from the owner’s office and set it up in the break room. There was speculation that Chicago or Los Angeles was next.

Hell, Kansas City itself was a possibility. We’re a hop, skip and jump away from Whiteman Air Force Base, where the U.S. parked the stealth bombers, and Fort Leavenworth. We have numerous federal facilities, including a U.S treasury. In 1995, we were a coin toss from being Timothy McVeigh’s target of choice.

Honestly, the rest of that day is a blur, but that night I remember going home to our new apartment – Scott and I had just been married a month. I remember watching the never-ending, cycling coverage, the footage of the towers falling, the speculative death tolls. I remember crying, and I remember being terrified of what was to come – biological, chemical, nuclear attack?

The following weekend, we were at the renaissance festival when a plane went overhead. Everyone – and I do mean everyone, jousters included, stopped and watched it. Behind us, people started crying. It was surreal, and a moment I’ll never forget.

The anthrax attack hit close to home. Remember at the time everyone thought it was related – that this was a second wave of low-tech biological attack. My dad was a postal worker. They found anthrax in his facility and he got Cipro. We got a suspicious letter at our office and had a hazmat team and the FBI come to investigate it (false alarm). For months, I had to wear gloves and a mask to open our office mail in an enclosed room – it was terrifying. I’m an asthmatic, so I’ve experienced the inability to breathe first-hand and I find no possible death more horrific. There couldn’t have been an ‘attack’ that felt more personal for me.

For almost a year after the attacks, I was absolutely, completely and unshakably convinced that there would be another, worse attack, or, waves of attacks. That 9-11 was just the beginning and that I and the people I loved may not live to see another year. Some days, I’m still surprised to be alive.

So, was I affected? Yes. Was it the same experience New Yorkers had? No.
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