OBAMA IS THE PRESIDENT! Woot!!

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Post by Angelique » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:22 am

Originally posted by fourpawsonthefloor
Honestly...all the above pretty much sounds like every politician that stands a chance of getting elected. I don't know many that can deviate from status quo and make it. Guess that reflects stronger on us than it does them. (this isn't just for the states)
I agree, and that's a huge part of what saddened me the most about this election. Those joyful people dancing in the streets really seem to expect Obama will be different. Maybe I'm cynical, but politics gives me good reason. I think we'll all be in for disappointment, but it will be worse for the people who think he can or even really intends to save the world.
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Post by fourpawsonthefloor » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:29 am

No one person can save the world. That's the point. But we can all do our little parts to help, and that doesn't matter who you are - everyone can help with something.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:05 pm

I haven't been paying much attention to it (though I've heard more than my share of Palin jokes) but I knew he'd won as soon as it happened because everyone watching the election in the bar next door to me started CHEERING and SCREAMING THEIR HEADS OFF. :D (No... there are no Republicans in Korea.)

Even though I didn't care leading up to it, I'm sort of thrilled that he won.
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Post by Entropy » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:38 pm

Originally posted by neling4
Speaking of mudslinging, the Obama campaign was slinging mud fast and furiously at Sarah Palin, just because she energized the Republicans and frightened the Democrats. Then they aimed at her daughter and made her their target. That was abominable. Not to mention poor old Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher and all the negative attention he received just because he dared to question Obama.

What has Obama ever done that makes you think he will change anything for the better?


[Edited on 6/11/08 by neling4]
the dems didn't touch Palin's daughter. and can you imagine what the right wing would have done had the situations been reversed? and Joe the plumber was attacked by the media. big difference. as mentioned elsewhere, if you want to talk about Palin I can give plenty of sources where it shows how bad she is.

and i would have easily voted for McCain last election. i liked McCain up until he started trying to change his previous statements in attempts to appeal to the right wing.

oh, and neling4, just out of curiousity, are you a creationist?
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Post by Angelique » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:21 pm

Originally posted by Entropy
the dems didn't touch Palin's daughter. and can you imagine what the right wing would have done had the situations been reversed? and Joe the plumber was attacked by the media. big difference. as mentioned elsewhere, if you want to talk about Palin I can give plenty of sources where it shows how bad she is.

and i would have easily voted for McCain last election. i liked McCain up until he started trying to change his previous statements in attempts to appeal to the right wing.

oh, and neling4, just out of curiousity, are you a creationist?
You just shot yourself in the foot there. I mean, if you're going to point out something negative about a politician, please make sure it's true. Sarah Palin was not interested in requiring that creationism (of any variety) be taught, but that it should not be treated as a taboo subject should it come up in discussion.

And I have heard plenty of horrific remarks from even supposed feminists about Bristol Palin. Things like, "How can Sarah Palin lead a country when she can't control her own 17 year old daughter?" then turning and insisting that Mrs. Palin is forcing that same teenage daughter she could not control into marriage. (And I don't see how that could possibly make sense.) It might not have been directly from the Obama campaign, but it did, much to my embarrassment, come from Dems.

To be perfectly fair, I can't remember anyone picking on any other politician for their kids' misbehavior- except when the politician was a woman. (Hillary Clinton took flack for letting Chelsea volunteer for her campaign, for instance. Sarah Palin took flack for letting her family make appearances with her, never mind that Obama did the exact same thing.) It's not about political parties or right or left wing at all. There is a huge amount of sexism and sexist double standards still in abundance in both political parties.

As for Joe the Plumber being attacked by the media, I think the media failed in their duty as objective reporters, big time, even as far back as in the primaries, being much tougher on Clinton than on Obama. I even had to wonder if Rupert Murdoch had been body-snatched when Fox News reported "A new day dawning" after being the first to call the election for Obama- while voting was still taking place in a couple of states, by the way, and news reporters (rather than commentators) got away with editorializing on a couple of state ballot initiatives.

If there is any attacking, if there is any bias, it's commentary, and it most certainly is NOT news. Make sure your sources are reliable, because even in the mainstream news media, caveat emptor very much applies.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:59 pm

Hey, let's not blame any one person for their vote, it's a free country they're allowed to vote how they want, and they shouldn't have to defend themselves.

*sinks back into the tub...*

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Post by Entropy » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:03 pm

ummm... i never said anything about Palin being a creationist, i was just curious. i am always curious about lines of creationism and voting record. i've always been under the assumption that most creationists tended to be rep. but i've been noting some trends otherwise.

there will always be those who cross the line, in both parties. However, the majority of of Dems, as far as i could tell, left Palin's family out of it. as the rep. left Obama's out (admittedly there were a few small cases otherwise, but both parties were pretty good about it).

There is always bias. And i agree that the media def. had some. I think the entire topic of Palin's wardrobe was ridiculous. Palin's stances on religion scare me (the words regarding us being in the Iraq). As do her stances on sex education and the environment. I also belief that she incited deliberate hatred for Obama with her terrorist comments (at the very least she could have phrased them to be less antagonistic).

oh, people commented on Bush's girls and how if he couldn't control them how could he run a country.

Oh, and just so you know. I'm a scientist so i understand the importance of sources, and from now on if we comment on these issues i think we should cite our sources.



[Edited on 6-11-2008 by Entropy]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:21 pm

I think creationism vs science is its own debate and that shouldn't be the focus here.



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Post by Entropy » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:23 pm

I'm not trying to start a creationism debate. i would start a new thread to do that. I was merely curious.
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Post by steyn » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:31 am

Just be glad that the majority in your country doesn't alway vote for one party. In SA, people don't actually choose their president, you already know who's it going to be when just you look up who's the current leader of the ANC party. Easy as that. Heck, I can't even pronounce my current president's name after Mbeki had to step down. But I think the next one in line is Jacob Zuma (the guy accused of rape and being corrupt).

(joke)Here's a little tip, when you're being accused of being corrupt, become the leader of the party that'll win the election, and then get rid of the police force that's investigating you. ;) (/joke)

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Post by Entropy » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:28 pm

That's one way to solve your police problems...
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Post by neling4 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:49 pm

Originally posted by Entropy
oh, and neling4, just out of curiousity, are you a creationist?
I had to google Creationism, because I wasn't sure what it meant.

What I am is a Christian who believes in God and I have no problem believing that God created the universe and everything in it. I do not, however, take everything I read in the Bible literally. For instance, I think it took way over seven days to create the heaven and earth, etc. lol!

If you are asking about evolution, I don't really have a problem with that either. If we evolved, then I believe that was God's plan.

Why? Are you?

That, however, has nothing to do with why I didn't vote for Obama. His politics are completely opposed to mine. As a firm pro-lifer, I would never consider voting for anyone as pro-abortion as he is. Also, considering the people he used to facilitate his rise in politics, like William Ayers and Reverend Wright, I am not sure of his scruples.
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Post by Entropy » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:53 pm

No, I am not a creationist, or pro intelligent design. I have no problems with those people who choose it as their personally belief (in fact i find the concept of God creating through evolution to be a very beautiful concept), it's when they try to make it science that i get aggrevated.

i didn't think your belief on this had anything to do with your vote. i asked because i've noticed i've been making some assumptions recently and became sort of curious if they were actually true.
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Post by Angelique » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:36 pm

As a firm pro-lifer, I would never consider voting for anyone as pro-abortion as he is.
No kidding. I've known some pro-choicers who were put off by his extreme stance on the abortion issue. When even the most militant pro-abortion organizations in the US did not regard the Born Alive Infant Protection Act as the threat to Roe v. Wade Obama made it out to be, when he twice killed the Illinois version of the bill in committee, and when he lied about the "differences" between the bill he killed and the federal version of the bill that passed unanimously, that did not reflect well on him at all.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:22 pm

Okay I know this is me speaking for myself, so realize that. I'm not trying to make a generalization.

But I voted for him as president for issues that are far more important to me than abortion. And issues I personally feel are more important to the country's future. Issues that I feel are the true hinge of change for major decisions, and I'm sorry pro-lifers, but to me that's not important enough.

Again, this is a personal opinion.
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Post by Angelique » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:43 am

This is, however, not about a mother's right to do what she wants with her own body, as proven by the number of pro-choice senators who ensured that BAIPA passed. This is about what rights a baby has once out of his or her mother's body- including the right to die with all the comfort and dignity quality health care can provide if the baby is too little or too sick to survive, and what should happen if his or her rights are violated. In this case, I'm absolutely not ashamed to admit that my vote in this election depended a lot on Obama's voting record there. Of course, there were other factors, but that voting record kind of colored how I viewed his promises and the firmness of his stands on other issues.

If you kill legislation designed to ensure a particularly neglected group of people is not denied adequate health care, promises of improving health care for everyone sound rather hollow to me. If, in the face of evidence that there's something wrong with the status quo, you go into denial and insist the status quo is fine, campaigning as the candidate of change sounds ludicrous to me. And I don't appreciate bald-faced lies, nor being treated to an email dodging my questions and arrogantly telling me my concerns weren't legitimate when this former Obama supporter brought up her concerns with the campaign.

But whatever. He's president now, and I'll put up with him for four years.

[Edited on 8/11/2008 by Angelique]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:30 am

Originally posted by Ult_Sm86
Okay I know this is me speaking for myself, so realize that. I'm not trying to make a generalization.

But I voted for him as president for issues that are far more important to me than abortion. And issues I personally feel are more important to the country's future. Issues that I feel are the true hinge of change for major decisions, and I'm sorry pro-lifers, but to me that's not important enough.

Again, this is a personal opinion.
I've heard this stance from a few people.... all men. ;)

I actually didn't know Obama was super into abortion until right now. I knew he had to be more into it than Bush but I didn't know that he was personally responsible for actions that actually impact the issue. Wow! From one extreme to another. Way to go America!
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:02 am

I find that remark sexist and obnoxious Dras. In actuality, I would never be able to go along with it if my g/f wanted an abortion and I certainly could never deal with adoption either.

however it is not my place to tell people what they should and shouldn't do with their body, especially women, and it is certainly not the federal government's job to go around and make sure no one is aborting either.
Standards, expectations, qualifications, rules and restrictions? Sure.
But to me this is as important an issue as, say, gay marriage. It's all perceptual to me. Actual problems that to me hold far more water in terms of concern for this country's future is getting the economy back and getting people out of Iraq. Thank "God" the former is what President Elect Obama is already swearing to do.



[Edited on 8/11/08 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:46 am

Originally posted by Ult_Sm86
I find that remark sexist and obnoxious Dras.
It is a fact. I've never heard a woman say they vote on issues more important than abortion. I've heard men say it, but never women. Whatever side we're on, women care about abortion.

I guess the economy could more important than abortion, but be serious: you don't know any more about the economy than I do. Every elected official promises to "help the economy". I'm sure Bush swore up and down that the economy was going to be super excellent during his term. McCain didn't lose because of his economic policies. Maybe the economy would have been better under McCain. Who knows?! No one. Not you, not me, not "the experts", NOBODY. That's why I vote for things that make sense, and trust that everything else will work out.

If you want obnoxious, I could say that women are more practical and don't pretend to know about things like "the economy" to look smart.
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Post by Freak » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:08 am

You can know a lot about the economy, even more than the candidates. Yes, there are a lot of standard recipes which people think might work or not, and I'll readily admit that you'll never be able to predict the outcome, but there are methods which are obviously better or worse in certain situations.

Saying that no one knows about the economy because you don't is indeed obnoxious ;)

About abortion: yes, women have a higher probability to care for it than men, but that doesn't mean every woman does. Quite a lot aren't interested in ever having children or having to do with them, assuming they'll be interested in abortion only because they're women indeed is sexist :D

Btw, just for the records (and because I'm against people tweaking the truth to make their own opinions look better) Obama isn't pro-abortion. That's bs. i doubt anyone gets some kind of sick giggles out of pressuring women into abortion or would dare to make it a platform for his run on presidency. He is pro-choice, a concept I approve of a lot.

In the end this whole debate seems a lot like redistributing the responsibility for actions to a more convenient aim. Can't fight the mother who has decided to abort (wouldn't look good fighting a mother) so let's concentrate on the guy allowing her to make this decision. How dare he expect grown ups to make grown up decisions?
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Post by wingyding » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:16 am

(in before 'random topic change')

My congratulations go out to everyone who ran for an office and appeared on the ballot, and to everyone who went out and voted in this undeniably historic election. it's great thing to see that after over 250 years, my country is still standing, and that my countrymen are still using the rights and responsibilities they've got.

Only time can tell where it goes from here, but we're all hoping for the best.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:35 am

Originally posted by Freak
You can know a lot about the economy, even more than the candidates. Yes, there are a lot of standard recipes which people think might work or not, and I'll readily admit that you'll never be able to predict the outcome, but there are methods which are obviously better or worse in certain situations.

Saying that no one knows about the economy because you don't is indeed obnoxious ;)
Knowing about the economy is like knowing who the next president is. Your best guess, is still a guess. No matter how much you know, it's so huge that no one knows it all.
About abortion: yes, women have a higher probability to care for it than men, but that doesn't mean every woman does. Quite a lot aren't interested in ever having children or having to do with them, assuming they'll be interested in abortion only because they're women indeed is sexist :D
Strange. Women who DON'T want children are the ones you'd think would care most about the right to terminate a pregnancy... are you sure you've thought this one through?

Women being the only ones who can get pregnant is SOOOO sexist. (Thanks a lot "god") Gay people care more about gay marriage than straight people... talk about discrimination! Hey gay people, why don't you find a real issue to care about, like the economy? Caring about personal rights and things that obviously and directly impact your life is silly when there's a whole country out there that needs a functioning economy! Which will continue to function no matter who is running it may I bring your attention to exhibit A: the last eight years.
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Post by Freak » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:02 pm

Women who don't want children would most probably use the pill and other means of protections. They would care about abortion, but obviously only if all the other methods have failed. Makes sense to me.

Gay people would care a lot about marriage because they're being discriminated for an inherent part of what they are. A woman has a choice whether she wants a child or not, a gay person can't just switch the gay off.

Some sort of economy always functions, even in times of anarchy you can exchange something you have for something you want. The problem about the economy is that how it works out has direct influence on not one group of people, but almost everyone. There is barely something more important in the lives of people than having or not having a job (yeah, I know, the birds, the sun, a walk in the park, yadda yadda, didn't say people think their job is the most important thing, but having one or not influences one's life the most).


Yep, seems as if I've thought things through :D
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:53 am

:thumbup:thumbup
what he said.

I tried about six or seven times trying to type up a sizable retort that was both coherent and sensitive as well as factual and tolerant.

I can't do it. There is no possible way I can get you to understand my perspective, and certainly not online. The whole debate about abortion, most especially when argued out on the internet, is one of the most pointless and fruitless debates. Why?

Because I'm never going to see it your way and you're never going to see it mine. Anthropologically it's probably our cultures. Sociologically, it's probably our media and parents. Biologically, it's probably been bred into some parts of the world that it's bad and bred into others that it isn't. I don't know, I don't care. It doesn't matter. Until it does, I'm not about to form any firm opinions on it. All I know is the economy does directly effect both myself and the rest of this nation while abortion only effects-and though this may sound insensitive it's true-a small hand full (when held in comparison). I know I'm not practicing mediocracy when i say that, but it's true, the president should not be concerning himself with such small personal favors that are based on things such as perspective/religion/personal ethics/etc... and be focused on the bigger picture.
-Pulling us out of a dirty war.
-Building the economy back up.
-Getting reliable (and affordable) health care.
-Looking damn good doing it so we can get some of the empathy and good standing relations we had with the rest of the world back.
Now I know that last one might not mean a lot to you, but as one of the "global leaders" and one of the countries where so much is expected and in the last eight years so little has been done, it's time we stepped up to the plate and fixed that.


:worship:worship Go Obama.
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Post by neling4 » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:06 pm

Originally posted by Ult_Sm86
:worship:worship Go Obama.
I refuse to worship Obama. lol!

Abortion is not a small issue, it is about LIFE! If you are familiar with the scientific definition of life, then you cannot rationally deny that conception is the moment when life begins.

http://mw1.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/life

This part is the definition I learned in college:

"c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction"

Every abortion KILLS a child. It is a fact. How can you say that that is unimportant, or less important than the economy?
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