Prince Caspian

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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Pick-me-up? Yikes.
Angelique wrote:The Last Battle was only disturbing if you missed the whole ending.
Now of course I understand that the stories are a Biblical allegory and they all went to Heaven at the end, but I didn't make that connection as a child and found it nonsensical and contrived. Everyone died horribly... oh wait, no they didn't. Yay! Wait, but what was the point? It was so random.

We really are born a certain way, aren't we? Even when I was barely old enough to be self-aware, I still wanted things to fit together. Even magic had to have laws that made sense. "Just because" has never been an acceptable answer.

It's been ages since I read them, but thinking back I'd guess that Susan didn't get to go with the others because she had sex. More randomness.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

That is exactly true, that is why she wasn't allowed.

To be honest, I think the last book was a sham. And I think C.S. Lewis and Tolkein probably got into a good row on the publication of that sucker.
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Post by Angelique »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:That is exactly true, that is why she wasn't allowed.
Nope, it was because she was too keen on acting "grown up" as opposed to actually growing up and got caught up in the superficial trappings of adolescence- the gossip and image consciousness. I know it's difficult for the Susan fans to accept, but it really didn't come out of left field. She kind of lords her status as the elder of the girls over the others in the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. She patronizes Lucy in Prince Caspian, is the most stubborn in her proud refusal to acknowledge Lucy's right, and is consequently the last of the children to see Aslan. In the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, we're basically told that Susan seems quite content to coast on the attention she gets for her looks- much to Lucy's annoyance- and seems to have lost an interest in improving her mind.

Of note, between Susan and Lucy, Susan was content to fill a much more stereotypically passive feminine role. In the books, not only did she not fight a single battle, she refused to fight in the Horse and His Boy, despite the fact that the archers would have no doubt appreciated her help. She let the men -and Lucy- fight over her rather than help fight what was pretty much her own battle. Lucy, in the books, volunteered her efforts in battle and did actually fight in the Horse and His Boy.

Above all, Susan stopped believing.

So even if she'd had sex, that would not have been the reason she was no longer counted a Friend of Narnia.

So I kind of figured they painted themselves into a bit of a corner regarding Susan in the movies, and I feel her omission at the end of The Last Battle will be that much more jarring because of the misguided effort to accommodate feminist sensibilities by making Susan a stronger female character than she ever was in the books.

I thought the message was feminist enough especially for CS Lewis' times- that Heaven prefers the women of stronger mind and character who go above and beyond what's expected of them over the more stereotypically vain ones preoccupied with "lipstick, nylons, and invitations" in perfect conformity to what society expects of them.

[Edited on 26/5/2009 by Angelique]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Then why was Lord of the Rings so popular? Most of the characters were celibate, even the ones involved in the tedious long-distance romantic subplot.
First let me edit myself. Celibate characters in Hollywood don't sell well.
Second,
Then why was Lord of the Rings so popular? Most of the characters were celibate, even the ones involved in the tedious long-distance romantic subplot.
the films of Tolkein already had way too big of an established fandom from the animated films (enjoyed by children where celibacy is seen in films the most) and the books (which I agree do take on a very non-sexual approach).

However look who they chose for Lady Arwen.
Image
Come on. The relationship on screen with Aragorn was certainly sensual. However no one had any sex, same as in Narnia, but as I said before, they built up the sensuality and sexual tension.
Because that's what people pay for.


[Edited on 26/5/09 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

They chose one of the least sexual actresses in Hollywood. She's cold and flat in any role. The romance in LotR was frigid, it's the only word for it.
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Post by JSherlock »

I always thought Susan didn't get into heaven because she stopped believing.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

They chose one of the least sexual actresses in Hollywood. She's cold and flat in any role. The romance in LotR was frigid, it's the only word for it.
Yet nine guys out of ten want her to speak nonsensical elvish to them while wearing no pants. :shifty
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Post by JSherlock »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
They chose one of the least sexual actresses in Hollywood. She's cold and flat in any role. The romance in LotR was frigid, it's the only word for it.
Yet nine guys out of ten want her to speak nonsensical elvish to them while wearing no pants. :shifty
Hell, 9 out of 10 women want Viggo with no pants also speaking sensical elvish to them. :D :D
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
They chose one of the least sexual actresses in Hollywood. She's cold and flat in any role. The romance in LotR was frigid, it's the only word for it.
Yet nine guys out of ten want her to speak nonsensical elvish to them while wearing no pants. :shifty
9 out of 10 guys who are interested in "Elvish" are virgins and wouldn't know sexy if it bit them on the ass.
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Post by Angelique »

The Drastic Spastic wrote: 9 out of 10 guys who are interested in "Elvish" are virgins and wouldn't know sexy if it bit them on the ass.
It's statements like these that make me wonder just what some people are doing hanging around on a comic book forum. I mean, if you're going to cling to tired and inaccurate stereotypes of Tolkein fans (or geeks of any kind), you might want to keep such statements to yourself if you suspect you are around people who know a lot of guys who know Elvish (and may also be fluent in Javascript as well as Klingon) and are quite happily married or otherwise not virgins.

I suggest attending a con and seeing just how many guys in attendance are accompanied by kids. Kids who, well, didn't just spring up from the ground.

And since sexiness is entirely subjective, it is possible for a virgin to know what sexiness just as well as you do. It's all about individual tastes.
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Post by Crocodile Hunter »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
Then why was Lord of the Rings so popular? Most of the characters were celibate, even the ones involved in the tedious long-distance romantic subplot.
First let me edit myself. Celibate characters in Hollywood don't sell well.
Second,
Then why was Lord of the Rings so popular? Most of the characters were celibate, even the ones involved in the tedious long-distance romantic subplot.
the films of Tolkein already had way too big of an established fandom from the animated films (enjoyed by children where celibacy is seen in films the most) and the books (which I agree do take on a very non-sexual approach).

However look who they chose for Lady Arwen.
Image
Come on. The relationship on screen with Aragorn was certainly sensual. However no one had any sex, same as in Narnia, but as I said before, they built up the sensuality and sexual tension.
Because that's what people pay for.


[Edited on 26/5/09 by Ult_Sm86]
So because they chose a beautiful woman for a role of elf aka. "naturally very beautiful by human standards." You are saying that the idea behind this was to sell sex to men who then fantasize about her? I think not.

The love interest is there to carry the plot onward.
If she wasn't there, she wouldn't bring him the sword of the kings and in the end marry him as a queen for a king.
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Post by JSherlock »

Guys, stereotypes exist for a reason. But they don't apply to everyone.

Besides, in the books Arwen shows up even less, and does absolutely fuck-all besides marrying Aragorn.
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Post by Elfdame »

I'm no philospher, but to me, Susan rejected Heaven because the fleeting things of Earth were more attractive to her. Where your treasure is, there is your heart also. It's easy for someone like me who was always ugly and different, but I worry about my gorgeous grandchildren and how hard it is for them to see beyond the surface. "Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised." I quote that a lot to my granddaughters, even more than "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle."
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Post by Jeremus »

Angelique wrote:
The Drastic Spastic wrote: 9 out of 10 guys who are interested in "Elvish" are virgins and wouldn't know sexy if it bit them on the ass.
It's statements like these that make me wonder just what some people are doing hanging around on a comic book forum. I mean, if you're going to cling to tired and inaccurate stereotypes of Tolkein fans (or geeks of any kind), you might want to keep such statements to yourself if you suspect you are around people who know a lot of guys who know Elvish (and may also be fluent in Javascript as well as Klingon) and are quite happily married or otherwise not virgins.

I suggest attending a con and seeing just how many guys in attendance are accompanied by kids. Kids who, well, didn't just spring up from the ground.

And since sexiness is entirely subjective, it is possible for a virgin to know what sexiness just as well as you do. It's all about individual tastes.

Le hannon! Mae pennen.:D

(Oh, yeah....and I would definitely know if something bit me on the butt.
Qa tlho.)

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

It's statements like these that make me wonder just what some people are doing hanging around on a comic book forum. I mean, if you're going to cling to tired and inaccurate stereotypes of Tolkein fans (or geeks of any kind), you might want to keep such statements to yourself if you suspect you are around people who know a lot of guys who know Elvish (and may also be fluent in Javascript as well as Klingon) and are quite happily married or otherwise not virgins.
It's called realistic standards.

LoL

Back on track though, I think Elfdame hit the nail on the head and convinced me that it might not be just because had sex, but I still stand my ground that one of the things she took to be so much more awesome THAN narnia was the smexing.

'Cuz I'm sorry but I had the card with the angel wings and the card with the V... and i tossed 'em both out for a card with a very satisfied lady on it. ;)
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Post by Angelique »

Eh, it's possible to be superficial and make bad decisions like choosing image and gossip over Heaven without having sex. But I could kind of see your point, particularly when contrasting Susan with another favorite female character of mine. Jill started off weak, but as characters do when they truly mature (as opposed to merely adopting grown up trappings), she became stronger, braver, smarter, and an altogether more, rather than less, interesting character as the Silver Chair and the Last Battle progressed. But she also happened to befriend a unicorn, and I know enough of unicorn lore to know what that means.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

9 out of 10 obviously fake statistics are jokes, guys. lol.

Still, Arwen/Liv Tyler is beautiful, but not sexy. And in the movie she was all white light and shapeless robes. Hot?
Elfdame wrote:I'm no philospher, but to me, Susan rejected Heaven because the fleeting things of Earth were more attractive to her. Where your treasure is, there is your heart also. It's easy for someone like me who was always ugly and different, but I worry about my gorgeous grandchildren and how hard it is for them to see beyond the surface. "Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised." I quote that a lot to my granddaughters, even more than "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle."
It depends more on their minds than their looks. I know plenty of boring ugly people who live on the surface, and lots of normal-to-beautiful people who are wonderfully deep. Belief in God has nothing to do with it though, there are believers and non-believers in both groups. Such a narrow focus results in shallow thinking... just because the focus is another world and not this one doesn't mean there's any depth there. Fear? Uchk. If you must preach, why not preach love instead?
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Post by Angelique »

Jeremus wrote:
Le hannon! Mae pennen.:D

(Oh, yeah....and I would definitely know if something bit me on the butt.
Qa tlho.)

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
Klingon and Sindarin for the win!

Oh, and Drastic, don't get hung up on the word "fear," as it's just a common old word that used to be used interchangeably with "proper awe and respect."

[Edited on 29/5/2009 by Angelique]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Angelique wrote: Oh, and Drastic, don't get hung up on the word "fear," as it's just a common old word that used to be used interchangeably with "proper awe and respect."
That's the adult interpretation. I don't know how old her grandchildren are, but it seems like a miserable sort of thing to drill into a kid.
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Post by Angelique »

The Drastic Spastic wrote:
Angelique wrote: Oh, and Drastic, don't get hung up on the word "fear," as it's just a common old word that used to be used interchangeably with "proper awe and respect."
That's the adult interpretation. I don't know how old her grandchildren are, but it seems like a miserable sort of thing to drill into a kid.
Well, I was taught that "adult interpretation" when I was a kid, too.
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Post by Rowena »

I always thought C.S. Lewis was saying achieving “heaven” was a matter of true and honest faith, no matter the interpretation or the deity being worshiped. His Narnia had a sharply dualistic belief system. There was Aslan, to whom all “good deeds” went, and Tash, who was the opposite of Aslan and accepted all “bad deeds.” Good things done in the name of Tash went to Aslan and the believer got to go to heaven. Bad deeds done in the name of Aslan went to Tash, and Tash consumed the evil-doer. Here’s a quote from a speech by a guy from Calormen who believed in Tash:

“…The Glorious One [Aslan] bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me…not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him…” (The Last Battle, 188-189).

There are some very obvious and (in my opinion) somewhat misguided parallels on the author’s part to Christianity (Aslan as Christ), and its ancient and on-going rivalry with fellow monotheistic faith Islam (the desert land of Calormen and their “misguided” Tash-based religion), although I happen to think that a comparison to the dualism of the Zoroastrian religion may be a better analogy for this book. Here’s why:

According to Zoroastrian beliefs, “there is one universal and transcendental God, Ahura Mazda, the one Uncreated Creator to whom all worship is ultimately directed. Ahura Mazda's creation—evident as asha, truth and order—is the antithesis of chaos, evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict.

“Active participation in life through good thoughts, good words and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep the chaos at bay. This active participation is a central element in Zoroaster's concept of free will.

“Ahura Mazda will ultimately prevail over evil Angra Mainyu / Ahriman, at which point the universe will undergo a cosmic renovation and time will end. In the final renovation, all of creation—even the souls of the dead that were initially banished to "darkness"—will be reunited in Ahura Mazda returning to life in the undead form. At the end of time a savior-figure [a Saoshyant] will bring about a final renovation of the world, and in which the dead will be revived. There will then be a final purgation of evil from the Earth (through a tidal wave of molten metal) and a purgation of evil from the heavens (through a cosmic battle of spiritual forces). In the end good will triumph, and each person will find himself or herself transformed into a spiritualized body and soul. Those who died as adults will be transformed into healthy adults of forty years of age, and those who died young will find themselves permanently youthful, about age fifteen. In these new spiritual bodies, humans will live without food, without hunger or thirst, and without weapons (or possibility of bodily injury). The material substance of the bodies will be so light as to cast no shadow. All humanity will speak a single language and belong to a single nation without borders. All will experience immortality (Ameretat) and will share a single purpose and goal, joining with the divine for a perpetual exaltation of God’s glory. [compare all this to the destruction of Narnia scene in The Last Battle and Lewis’s later descriptions of how Jill seemed to look older and the Professor and Polly younger in their “true” forms, etc.].

“In Zoroastrian tradition the malevolent is represented by Angra Mainyu (also referred to as "Ahriman"), the "Destructive Principle", while the benevolent is represented through Ahura Mazda's Spenta Mainyu, the instrument or "Bounteous Principle" of the act of creation” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastria ... ic_beliefs).

The poor, misguided donkey, Puzzle, who dressed up in a lion skin and pretended to be Aslan (and later a blasphemous amalgamation Shift called Tashlan) was a false idol taken advantage of by a cruel, opportunistic false prophet: the ape Shift. Puzzle got to go to “heaven.” Shift, a wrinkled old ape who claimed to be a man, was consumed by Tash. This perhaps reflects Lewis’s opinion that evolution was the “central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives” (C.S. Lewis on Creation and Evolution: The Acworth Letters, 1951: http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/1996/PSCF3-96Ferngren.html).

Here’s the thing, though. Although a lot of the dualistic nature of the Narnian religion and afterlife appears to have been inspired by Zoroastrianism, the image of the “afterlife” or “heaven” C.S. Lewis described in The Last Battle was taken, as he said, directly from the Allegory of the Cave in Plato’s Republic. “It’s all in Plato, all in Plato: bless me, what do they teach them at these schools!” (The Last Battle, 195). He was saying the world we experience every day is only a series of projected shadows that we take to be reality because we don’t know any better. The world the characters entered at the end of the book is the world of real objects that cast those shadows, and the further in you go, the more layers you peel away, the realer everything gets.

Narnia was a shadow world, “just as our own world, England and all, is only a shadow or copy of something in Aslan’s real world” (195). And all the characters were merely shadows of their real, internal selves—their “souls”—until after they crossed over into the “realer” Narnia.

Lucy described it like this: “This is still Narnia, and more real and more beautiful than the Narnia down below, just as it was more real and more beautiful than the Narnia outside the stable door! [the shadow version that was destroyed] I see…world within world, Narnia within Narnia…

“Yes,” said Mr. Tumnis, “Like an onion: except that as you continue to go in and in, each circle is larger than the last” (207).

From their Narnian reality, the characters could also see the “real” England—and visit it if they wanted to. That’s where Peter, Susan, Lucy, and Edmund’s parents went when they died, because “in that inner England, no good thing is destroyed” (208). According to Mr. Tumnis, “All the real countries are only spurs jutting out from the great mountains of Aslan. We have only to walk along the ridge, upward and inward, till it joins on” (209). So every reality, every afterlife, every heaven is connected in C.S. Lewis’s imagination.

As for Susan—the reason she isn’t there at the end is simply because she didn’t die along with everyone else. Lucy, the Professor, and Polly were on a train—the same train as Lucy’s parents (who were on their way to Bristol), although Lucy didn’t know they were there. Edmund and Peter were standing on the train platform waiting for them to arrive. Peter thought the train was taking the curve into the station too quickly. Edmund heard “a frightful roar and something hit me with a bang, but it didn’t hurt…And then, we were here” (158). They, and their parents, were all killed in a terrible train accident. Jill and Eustace crossed over to the "afterlife" directly from Narnia. Susan wasn’t on the train, the platform, or in Narnia, and so she wasn’t killed with the rest of her family. When she does die, she most likely would go to the same afterlife as her parents—the “inner England”—because she long ago cut her ties with Narnia and the other “funny games we used to play when we were children” (154). Susan grew up to become an ordinary, average, completely non-magical, somewhat vain and rather unimaginative young woman. She’s not evil, but her true home is the fast-paced, mechanized, superficial “real” world of 20th century Earth, not Narnia. There, Lewis infers that Aslan, the King of Beasts, appears as Christ, the King of Kings. The others, by contrast, never felt at home in their own world again after leaving Narnia, and allowed their desire to return to Narnia consume and even stunt their lives in England. So, when they died, Narnia was for them, just as London was for their parents and, eventually, for Susan.

As for Jewel the unicorn, he was King Tirian’s best and most loyal friend. Sometimes a unicorn is just a unicorn.

That’s basically my interpretation of The Last Battle, anyway. I worked it out way back after I first read all seven Narnia books out loud to my brother and sister and I found I was unable to really clearly explain The Last Battle to them when they started asking me questions. That frustrated me like crazy, and I spent about a day obsessively researching all the imagery in the book. This is some of the stuff I came up with. I could be wrong about some of it or even all of it, but hey, it’s a theory, and I just thought it might be fun to share. Sorry it's so long, but once I started writing it all came pouring out! :)

:bamf
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Prince Caspian

Post by Angelique »

Rowena wrote: The others, by contrast, never felt at home in their own world again after leaving Narnia, and allowed their desire to return to Narnia consume and even stunt their lives in England.
I would disagree there. The Biblical view (as well as one expressed by various Platonist schools) is that this world isn't our real, permanent home in the first place, and we shouldn't get too comfortable with it and its ways. Susan became too attached to the trivial things in this world, which is why, while she didn't die in the train crash or in the war, it was specified that she was no longer a Friend of Narnia. The implication was that if she had died then, she wouldn't have gone on to the "real Narnia" or the "real England" because she was too preoccupied with the trivial and temporary.

And then there's the matter of most of the characters' lives in England being improved rather than stunted by their adventures in Narnia and any desire to return. Professor Kirke would have been a learned man anyway, but learned the hard way just how close he came to following in the footsteps of his Uncle Andrew. Edmund's relationship with his family improved drastically. Eustace turned his back on his gang of bullies, broadened his horizons, and became a decent kid who stood up for the downtrodden even under torture. Jill, who started out as weak, cowardly, and not even knowing which direction was west, gained the courage to stand up to her tormentors, got involved with Girl Guides, and, by the time she returned to Narnia, she was wilderness savvy and an excellent tracker with a real sense of adventure.

Regarding Emeth's presence in the "real Narnia" (and I think it's telling that they can see the "real Calormen" there, too), that does not reflect Zoroastrianism, but Christian universalism which is based on the Biblical idea that people who've never heard about Christ are judged by whether or not they do their best according to what they can figure out, and that all goodness comes ultimately from God. He had never heard the truth about Aslan, but he chose goodness, so there he was.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Hey, or it could just be a book? :D
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Prince Caspian

Post by Angelique »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Hey, or it could just be a book? :D
As a bit of a Narnia fan (okay, so I also have every single other book Lewis has written, a few in more than one edition, most of the works of the other Inklings and a writer or two that looked up to them, and I also have a well worn Companion to Narnia), I kind of take "it's just a book," the same way Star Wars fans generally take, "It's just a movie," or comic book fans take "they're just comics."

My response is usually the same. Sigh. Roll eyes. "Yeah, and..?"

Then continue the discussion.

However, anything that anagogical and (although the author never would admit it) allegorical can't be accurately described as "just a book."

All this heavy philosophical, theological, and eschatolotical stuff? That was the whole point of the books. (Except they made reading about these things fun.)
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Post by JSherlock »

Angelique wrote:All this heavy philosophical, theological, and eschatolotical stuff? That was the whole point of the books. (Except they made reading about these things fun.)
Actually, as a child, I never saw this series as religious, it came as a very bad shock (in high school) when I learned they were veiled 'believe in Christianity above all others as the right one' propaganda-esque messages as really cool fantasy.

I understand that that's all right for people who have faith - but I tend to just over look that part and enjoy them as plain old fantasy books that teach basic lessons all children should be taught: treat others like you would want others to treat you. Be wary of strangers with candy. Don't sit around - be adventurous. that kind of stuff - and along the way, you'll learn about who you are and learn your own mind.
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