I need some "honest" answers ...

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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by DoomInABox » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:52 pm

Okay, I need to write an essay about honesty for my composition class, and I thought well, there's a bunch of people here I could get some opinions from.

The million-dollar questions are ...

- What is more important to you, the truth, or a lie?
- When can one be more important than the other?
- Which do you think gets people ahead in society, honesty or dishonesty?

and lastly ...
- Do you believe the concept of "honesty is the best policy" is outdated, and no longer has meaning in today's society? Is it simply overrated?

I heartily thank anyone who replies to help me out on this, but I urge you to post asap, because this thing is due in like a week.

Thankees!
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by HoodedMan » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:42 pm

I think all of these depend on the situation and the basic sociological pressures of the environment... could you give an example?

I think a lot of people don't feel honesty is the best policy, but our society is corrupt and that's the root of the matter. I think dishonesty gets some people much farther than honesty can.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by fourpawsonthefloor » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:03 pm

What do I think is more important to me? The truth.

When? It is pretty vital in any setting. Of course there is exception to any rule, I personally don't consider "white" lies true lies. Yes you are not speaking the truth, but a "lie" to me is something more than that. A lie to me is more self serving. Yes I know that the true definition of a lie is to not speak the truth, but well, thats how my little mind works so...:P.

What do I think gets you ahead. Kind of depends on how you measure success. If you measure it as climbing the ladder, making lots of dough, and not caring who ends up beneath you - then lying for sure gets you further ahead. Do I need to say politician? If you are talking true happiness and peace with yourself and all that crap - the truth. It doesn't stain the soul. I believe in kind of a mixture of karma/God'll get you, for that sort of thing. You do good things, be nice and speak truth you get happiness in life. May not be what you would expect to be happiness, and you may have low moments and have to deal with crap, but ultimately you will be rewarded. More info than you were looking for I'm sure - but I had to qualify what I was saying. Ultimately you can summerise it as lying will bite you in the ass evenutally, where as the truth can't.

Honesty is the best policy. Yeah, call me a fuddy duddy, but I do believe in that. I think that you are more at peace when you speak the truth. When you lie, you are always having to keep the lie up, and that is a hell of a lot of work.

Have I lied? Of course! I definately am not an angel...but I have always been more happy speaking the truth, other than with the odd "white" lie that is to protect or comfort someone else.

Now I am sure that is fodder for debate......
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by Bamf Bunny » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:21 am

It seems so straightforward to say "Of course it's better to be honest than to lie."

I believe that all brides and babies are beautiful by definition, so it's not lying to say so. But "honesty" is often used as a cover for "saying whatever you think, regardless of how harmful it is."

Your friend has gained weight? Why not say "Wow, you've really gotten fat!" It's true, isn't it? Wouldn't it be wrong to be dishonest?

At times like that honesty isn't much of a virtue. It's a way to justify cruelty and selfishness. There's another option, after all: not saying anything.

I've known people who complain that they're very honest, and it's not appreciated. Usually they fall into the latter category.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by NightPoofer » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:36 am

- What is more important to you, the truth, or a lie?
The truth is. I don't care if it's the meaniest thing you can say about me or someone I know, but I would rather go for knowing what you said about something than hearing a bunch of crap and lies.

- When can one be more important than the other?
Why would you ever need to lie? I don't ever see a time to do that.

- Which do you think gets people ahead in society, honesty or dishonesty?
Honesty. If you lie so much and dig yourself a big enough hole... you can't get out of it. Sooner or later you should find that out if you lie just to get ahead in society.

- Do you believe the concept of "honesty is the best policy" is outdated, and no longer has meaning in today's society? Is it simply overrated?
I don't think Honesty should even be a policy. It should be a GIVEN

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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by DoomInABox » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:11 am

Wow ... this thread's been in existence for only six hours and you guys have already given me some FANTASTIC insights. I never even thought of Bamf Bunny's angle on it ...

Paws, there's no such thing as too much info, so qualify away! Credibility is a key part of any kind of information. I guess I should have said in the first place that not only do I want to know your opinion, I want to know WHY it is your opinion. But everyone seems to have figured that out anyway. Yay for you!

Oh and Northstar, you wanted examples ... hmmm
Lessee ... Bamf Bunny said something about how honesty can be used as a tool for being cruel. Well, sometimes the truth IS cruel. Can you justify whether it's better to let someone delude themself over something, or to give them a dose of reality? When does dishonesty stop being a "white lie" and become something more serious?

For the record, I agree with NightPoofer: lies dig you into a hole one way or another. But consider the fact that the majority of people like being told what they want to hear instead of what's really true ... Western society today allows us to delude ourselves simply because we rarely face repercussions that we cannot suppress in one way or another. In simple terms, a lot of people don't mind that hole as long as it's not something they actually have to deal with.

Take this forum, for example. Say we weren't honest people ... We could say anything we want about ourselves here ... I can claim I'm a certified PhD in Psychology and then spout a bunch of jargon and can anyone really dispute it? Perhaps a real psychology professor could, but I'd bet a lot of people might believe me. And even if they don't, exactly what is it going to do to me, really?

I don't even have to go to that extreme ... I can say little things about my personality or have hypocritical morals that I want to be true. I can pretend and even believe with my whole heart that they are true, and to everyone who reads them they are true, because there is nothing to dispute them. I can be, in reality, a truly wicked person with no sense of anything decent, a total and complete hypocrit in every way, but because my delusions are supported in tangible form, I am capable, if only by a thin thread, of believing I am a good person.

And wow, I seem to be writing my essay right here on this forum. Sorry about that. Okay. How about I smack in a couple hypothetical situations for speculation, and then go take a nap or something?


Hypothetical Situation #1:

-- You have a friend who you're not terribly close to, but you still sit together for coffee and talk on the phone. She is dating this guy who is everything perfect and more, is totally in love with him and it looks as though they'll be together forever, but something about him has always rubbed you wrong, and you don't bother to hide it from her.
-- Then you find out he's cheating on her. You don't say anything at first for several reasons, maybe because you're afraid you might be mistaken, maybe because you have no proof. Also Your friend has, in the past, half-jokingly accused you of being jealous of her happiness, because you never got along with her beau.

Here's the doozy: Suddenly, out of the blue, she asks you if you think her relationship will last the test of time. You have two choices: either Yes or No. Why or Why Not?

Things to consider: Is the truth, (namely your suspicions about her beau), something she's going to want to hear? What's more, is she going to want to hear it from YOU? Remember, you were never really sisterhood friends. Consider what might happen, what she might do, what her suspicions are already regarding you and her lover.

** Remember, I not asking for all the fancy tricks you'd use to deal with this situation, I want to know whether or not the truth is worth losing a friend and even suffering repercussions for (and believe me, I've seen how evil people can be when sufficiently provoked ... it can put a soap-opera to shame). I'd also like to hear the reasoning behind your choice, for qualification's sake.

If you feel that's a stacked question (and it is), here's a simpler one.


Hypothetical Situation #2:

-- Say you have a job working with a team of people, of which you and one other person are the leaders. You work hard, you do good stuff ... and your policy is honesty to the core. You tell your boss when there's a problem, and you give him your honest opinion on things, no matter how controversial they are. Say even, that you're pretty good at delivering the truth with a spoonful of sugar, without deviating from it in the least.
-- Now your co-leader is a different story. They leave it up to you to deliver bad news, but are alway the first to give the good news. They're very buddy-buddy with the boss, laughing at his jokes and complimenting him on things you find you have to bite your tongue about for fear of saying something rude. You learn that *someone* has been spreading those nasty office rumours about you, and your partner shamelessly denies it ... to everyone but you. They never outright lie or steal your work, but even as you continue to be formally acknowledged for your work, this person is setting themselves up to look like the one behind your success.

You've considered talking to your boss, because he seems to be fairly level-minded and might understand. But before you can, he tells you about this AWESOME new idea your partner has just given him, for your team, that could revolutionize a whole bunch of stuff, and what do you think about it?
Well, you take a look, and it's obviously a shoddy idea, poorly planned and decked out in glitter, and you believe the enormous promise of it has made your boss overlook its flaws.

Now Consider: The fact is that you have never gotten along with your partner and your boss knows it. Saying the wrong thing now might look bad for you. You could bite your tongue once more, avoid this confrontation and see if you can work the bugs out of the plan later. However, if you can't, you may be the one who loses your job.
** Once again, your choice and your reason for sticking to it.


*************
... and that just made this post twice as long.
Okay, please forgive my rambling, but you guys really did make me think of a lot of neat stuff ... thanks to you, I think this essay is going to be a breeze. My grade notwithstanding, it's still one heck of a discussion that we intelligent people can dig our teeth into.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by fourpawsonthefloor » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:21 am

I do think that truth can be a weapon, but that to me is another thing. You can be darn rude, and be telling the truth, but that doens't make it right. You can be tactful, or omit things that are not necessary and still be honest. For example - fat friend. Yes you could be a jerk and say - boy have you gotten fat! Or you could not comment on that, and find something positive about her to comment on like - wow, nice haircut. Both are true, but one is tactful, while the other is not.
I recently went through one of those to tell the truth or not dillemas. I had been bottling up a lot of frustration about my friend's son's behaviour which is totally out of control. I had to confront her on it, but did so in the most loving, supportive way that I could. Yes she was majorly pissed, and we are still having to work through some of her feelings there, but boy did I ever feel better than constantly shrugging it of with an "its OK" when it wasn't. The mild lying that I had been doing had just been glossing the surface over, and was eventually more detrimental to the friendship than being honest right off the bat would have been.
Just the same, when people had to surrender their pet because of hard circumstances (example kid is so allergic that they have to take them to ER) and we euthanized it and they then came by and asked, I would usually tell them that it found a new home. They didn't need to torture themselves. Sometimes I would make eye contact with the parent as I told the kid that it wasn't there, to make it clear to them what the situation was without hurting the child. That in my opinion, is a just form of lying.
The @$#holes I would be brutally honest with (but never around children). Like the lady that surrendered her cats because the shedding fur didn't match her sofa. Geesh!
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by HoodedMan » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:35 pm

Originally posted by DoomInABox
Can you justify whether it's better to let someone delude themself over something, or to give them a dose of reality? When does dishonesty stop being a "white lie" and become something more serious?
I have a reputation of being very frank and honest. However, it's not honest to be cruelly frank about the trivial things that might hurt people; it's sadistic.
Originally posted by DoomInABox
Western society today allows us to delude ourselves simply because we rarely face repercussions that we cannot suppress in one way or another. In simple terms, a lot of people don't mind that hole as long as it's not something they actually have to deal with.
Absolutely, and this is the problem with our society. There are so very few role models and so much dishonesty inundating our culture that it's very, very hard to find an honest man.
Originally posted by DoomInABox
Take this forum, for example. Say we weren't honest people ... [snip]
Absolutely, and I'll think you'll find that on the Internet, dishonesty runs more rampantly than anything else, simply due to the anonymity of the medium.
Originally posted by DoomInABox
Hypothetical Situation #1:

-- You have a friend who you're not terribly close to, but you still sit together for coffee and talk on the phone. She is dating this guy who is everything perfect and more, is totally in love with him and it looks as though they'll be together forever, but something about him has always rubbed you wrong, and you don't bother to hide it from her.
It's all right to be honest, but be tactful. Bring it up gently and if it doesn't change her feelings, don't push it. It's her decision on what she wants or doesn't want to do with this guy and you have no say in it whatsoever.
Originally posted by DoomInABox
-- Then you find out he's cheating on her. You don't say anything at first for several reasons, maybe because you're afraid you might be mistaken, maybe because you have no proof. Also Your friend has, in the past, half-jokingly accused you of being jealous of her happiness, because you never got along with her beau.
She needs to know, plain and simple, and you need to tell her if you're sure you know. Something that turns out to be incorrect could greatly hurt your friendship, but if you're sure, this is something you know that can affect her future horribly. If she decides you're just being jealous, it's wrong but there's nothing more to do. You might have to prepare for being damage control.
Originally posted by DoomInABox
Hypothetical Situation #2:

-- [snip] Well, you take a look, and it's obviously a shoddy idea, poorly planned and decked out in glitter, and you believe the enormous promise of it has made your boss overlook its flaws.
Then you tell him. When an employee is asked about a business decision, it is his duty to be open and honest. If you tell him it's great and it turns out to be a failure, you're in big trouble. But if you're honest and it fails, the person who came up with it (i.e., the weasel) is going to be in trouble as he rightfully deserves.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by kurtlover » Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:46 pm

- What is more important to you, the truth, or a lie?
The truth, no matter how harsh or cruel could be.. i prefer the truth before everything ;)
- When can one be more important than the other?
Of course, the truth is always considered more important than the lie, at least from my personal point of view
- Which do you think gets people ahead in society, honesty or dishonesty?
and lastly ...
I think none, that's an answer that cannot be just reduced to just one simple question, both honesty and dishonesty could take a person ahead in society depending of the factors.
- Do you believe the concept of "honesty is the best policy" is outdated,
and no longer has meaning in today's society? Is it simply overrated?
Well its overrated in the sense that lots of people are aware of the concept and mention it all the time but they do the opposite.

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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by Bamf Bunny » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:10 pm

Originally posted by DoomInABox
Hypothetical Situation #1:

-- You have a friend who [...] is dating this guy who is everything perfect and more [...] Then you find out he's cheating on her. [...]
Suddenly, out of the blue, she asks you if you think her relationship will last the test of time.
I wouldn't tell her he's cheating. It's none of my business, and it isn't necessarily a predictor of whether her relationship will fail anyway. Some faithful relationships fail; some unfaithful ones last.
Hypothetical Situation #2:
Your boss [...] tells you about this AWESOME new idea your partner has just given him [...] and it's obviously a shoddy idea, poorly planned and decked out in glitter [...]
I'd point out the worst problem with the idea, and say it's something that in my professional opinion would need to be dealt with. If the boss disagrees with me, I'll just live with it. It's my job to give him my expert opinion, and it's his job to take the opinions of his subordinates and make decisions based on it.

I'd probably avoid loaded words like "shoddy" and "glitter," or anything that might make it sound like I'm reacting emotionally to the partner's proposal. Wouldn't say anything about the partner, either.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by Maelstrom » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:21 pm

This reminds me a little bit of the game Scruples, in which you have a bunch of very difficult, "morally gray" questions to ask. (You pick a question you hope will elicit a specific response from the player, because if you predict correctly, you get points). ;)

Hypothetical Situation #1:

-- You have a friend who you're not terribly close to... you find out [her boyfriend's] cheating on her..... Suddenly, out of the blue, she asks you if you think her relationship will last the test of time. You have two choices: either Yes or No. Why or Why Not?
Whoof. While I've never been in a situation to discover if someone's cheating, I've seen the results of it. However, I've never found myself in a situation where a friend is suspicious of my motives. And then there's the problem of couching it in terms that she'll accept without just denying it outright. What good is the Undilluted Truth going to do if she categorically denies it? Especially since the only reason you'd tell her this is so that she acts on it and avoids further pain? And especially because you seem to have no irrefutable proof?

My response? Let's see... If I tell her straight out "your beau is a cheating bastard", she's gonna look like I slapped her with a fish, then the chilly silence will descend, followed by the heated screamfest. Which will drive a wedge between the two of us, drive her closer to her beau, and tip my hand besides. (Though he knows to be more careful about his philandering ways, he also knows he can keep doing it with impunity....)

If she already knows I don't like him, I'll couch the truth in those familiar, acceptable terms.
"Honey, you know how I feel about him. And my feelings haven't changed. I hope I'm wrong, and that he's the right man for you, but I just can't shake the feeling he's going to hurt you."

That kind of sympathetic tone should open things up for me to give her more of my suspicions. I know it's not going to be something she'll want to hear, but if I don't at least *try* to tell her the truth, then I won't be able to look in the mirror again. It's not so much having "I told you so" rights as it's "I did all I could".

Hypothetical Situation #2:

Your co-leader.... never outright lie or steal your work, but even as you continue to be formally acknowledged for your work, this person is setting themselves up to look like the one behind your success.

You've considered talking to your boss, because he seems to be fairly level-minded and might understand. But before you can, he tells you about this AWESOME new idea your partner has just given him, for your team, that could revolutionize a whole bunch of stuff, and what do you think about it?
Well, you take a look, and it's obviously a shoddy idea, poorly planned and decked out in glitter, and you believe the enormous promise of it has made your boss overlook its flaws.

Now Consider: The fact is that you have never gotten along with your partner and your boss knows it. Saying the wrong thing now might look bad for you. You could bite your tongue once more, avoid this confrontation and see if you can work the bugs out of the plan later. However, if you can't, you may be the one who loses your job.
** Once again, your choice and your reason for sticking to it.


This is the kind of situation that I wouldn't interfere in if it didn't directly concern me. As it does directly concern me, even to the point of threatening my position, I'm GOING to react....

This is where having the foundation of an honest relationship with your supervisor comes in very, very handy. If everyone knows you as a straight shooter, you have a little bit of an edge over "Johnny" the social climbing leech. But, like I did before with the girlfiend scenario, there's the truth, and there's The Undilluted Truth. The Undilluted Truth is "Johnny's a lying, scheming bastard, he's after my job, and he's given you a crock of a plan that will leave us in the gutter, while he takes home bonuses." The Undilluted Truth is gonna go over like a whiny ton of bricks, it won't make you look like a team player, and it will leave Johnny rubbing his hands in glee that he's finally manipulated you into making a political blunder.

So Johnny's going to be manipulative and exploitive? Fine. Fight fire with fire. Tell the truth, but in a nice, dilluted, softened package. Take a look at the plan, say it looks good on the surface, but there's this thing and that thing, and this hole over here ... and, did your partner, Johnny, think this up? Look a bit confused and concerned, mention he usually he does more research than this. I mean, you've never been able to poke holes in his plans like this before. And then ask if you can do a cost-benefits and feasability analysis on this first? Because you just don't think he's taken everything into account. Bosses love it when you offer to do work on something, and he'll love it even more if you can fix the holes. (A big if: the plan may only be good as compost....)

Now, Johnny may throw a fit if he finds out "you've hijacked his plan", but now that kind of behavior and rumor mongering is going to reflect on him much, much worse than you. If he attacks now, it's going to look like he's being pissy about his project being a failure, and you'll have a legitimate, tangiable grief with him to bring up with your boss.

This may look transparently manipulative. Well, it is. In a grossly political situation like this, you have to manipulate a little to slip the truth in there. Imagine what Capitol Hill must look like on a slow day....


I guess my main thing is to tell the truth, but don't always tell the Undilluted Truth. The truth is like an essential oil, something very strong and overpowering. The reason we have social rules like "If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" is to dillute that overpowering, sometimes offensive truth into something acceptable. I tell the truth to keep my conscience clear, and to save someone from further pain and trouble. I can't take care of either agenda if my words are so bluntly offensive that they have the opposite effect. Even when we're 100% honest with our friends, we use our facial expressions, our tone of voice, and even just that unspoken friendship to soften and dillute the truth when it's particularly harsh.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by DoomInABox » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:05 am

Oh wow, you guys have hit the nail on it's poor, aching head. I could see the outline of this essay forming in my brain as I was reading your posts! Plus it's given me a lot of insight on how I would deal with my own situations involving the honesty policy.

The first Hypothetical Situation is a page taken straight out my own book of life ... I had to strip away personal feelings about it and make it from an outside perspective, but the generality is still the same. My friends and I started on Bamf Bunny's track, deciding it was none of our business, and besides, this guy wasn't making much of an effort to hide it so she'd probably figure it out in no time flat. When she didn't seem to be able to, we ended up making the same decision Maelstrom and Northstar did: we confronted her, and tried to break it to her gently. Our consciences wouldn't let us do otherwise.

Well, in a bizarre twist of nature, it turned out she knew about everything and had already forgiven this guy. He continued to cheat (always with the same other girl, too), and finally we pressed her: could she really think this was going to change? She did, and didn't care what we thought, and told us to back off. I recently found out that she is now engaged to this guy. I have no proof as to my suspicions, but considering the record, I really can't help wondering if a tiny part of her just wants to prove us wrong. I'll never know: we haven't spoken in over a year and I doubt we ever will again. There's truth and its consequences ... nasty stuff.

The second hypothetical situation is nothing I've ever dealt with or even know anyone who has. I wanted something a bit more clear cut ... where there's rules to follow, those of being partof a business and those of simple diplomacy, and by staying within those guidlines it becomes less of a personal choice and more of a logical one.

And Maelstrom ... I hope no one in an office ever tries to piss you off ... you'd wash the windows with their ass and make it look like they volunteered for it.

Paws' post, to boot, is a good example of the kinds of things we need to tread carefully around when brutal honesty is concerned ... young children won't see the value of the truth, they'll only see the pain it causes them.

And let me add that I am very grateful the people on this forum seem to have decent regards to issues like morality and honesty, and who understand the flimsiness of the 'black and white' point of view, hence your "morally gray" areas. There's people here who don't try to impress everyone for the sake of it, and who post pictures of themselves that were *not* cut from magazines. Heck, we actually have people like Dave Cockrum and Paty and Darick Robertson posting regularly, and no one goes "pfft, it can't really be them ...". That, I think, is a pretty special thing.

Thank you to everyone who's been posting here ... you're being a spectacular help. And please, don't let this addendum stop anyone from continuing the discussion ... I find this an alluring enough topic to be mercilessly pulled apart and dissected for posts to come.
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I need some "honest" answers ...

Post by CurlyyHairGirl » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:38 am

- What is more important to you, the truth, or a lie?

The truth. A lie can be exagerated and sugared to fit peoples needs when the time comes to answer a question or make a statement, but it is much more fullfulling to tell the truth and get it out of your system to let something like a lie rot in the edge of your mind. If a person lied and continues to lie, it only becomes a really bad habit and can be harmful to that persons wellbeing.

- When can one be more important than the other?

The truth is always impotant, but can be harmful or hurtful at the same time. Sometimes in order not to hurt somebody's feelings and ruin their self esteem, small white lies can be better than telling the truth. But agian, in the long run, both can be painful. They balance out

- Which do you think gets people ahead in society, honesty or dishonesty?
Truthfully...dishonesty. Today people try to work hard to get to a good place in life, but hard work just doesn't seem to be good enough anymore. Because so many people compete to get where they want to be in life, they have to gain the advantage, tilt the balance in their favor, cheat. I can't think of one person who hasn't cheated on a math test at least once to try to up their grade...even I have, I admit it, and it made me feel horrible.


- Do you believe the concept of "honesty is the best policy" is outdated, and no longer has meaning in today's society? Is it simply overrated?

I do believe that honesty is the best policy, but it even I lie sometimes. It may be outdated, but it depends on the circumstances. It still has meaning in today's society...up till the teen years where children seem to push away from family or forms of authority to find thier independance, it at this time where children are most susceptible to lie of pressured by peers to lie in order to..."survive". The ''skill'' to lie is practised and refined but seem to drop as a person matures.
What I'm trying to say is that the whole "honesty is the best policy" still applies today, but mainly in the mature age group (adults), and not so much with children. "It is much simpler and easy to tell a lie than it is the truth"--Forgot who said it. But it's true. Many poeple in teen years and on down (myself included) have or had found it easier to tell a lie in a tight spot than to tell the truth out of fear of the consequences. But they both have consequences.

Hope that helps. __CHG
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Post by DoomInABox » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:41 am

Everything helps, Curlyy. :)

A lot of people have variating angles on the same concept ... it's really interesting to see everyone's way of looking at it.
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:45 am

Glad I could help.:)

I need to put my brain to use every once and I while, so I should be thanking you for posting these questions. Thank you!
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Post by DoomInABox » Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:47 am

Heh, I know what you mean. But a discussion takes two ... or more. That's the truth :)
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Post by Bamf Bunny » Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:22 pm

Message original : DoomInABox
a friend who you're not terribly close to, but you still sit together for coffee and talk on the phone. [...]
When she didn't seem to be able to [leave the guy we didn't think was right for her] we confronted her, and tried to break it to her gently [that he was seeing someone else]
Well, in a bizarre twist of nature, it turned out she knew about everything and had already forgiven this guy. [...] we pressed her: could she really think this was going to change? She did, and didn't care what we thought, and told us to back off. [...] I'll never know: we haven't spoken in over a year and I doubt we ever will again.
In other words:

"We didn't know this girl very well, but we knew how to run her life better than she did. We gave her unsolicited advice about the most personal matters possible until she finally broke down and told us personal information that she'd kept private up to that point.

But that wasn't good enough for us, and we kept after her about it until she told us to fuck off. Strangely enough, she is no longer my friend in any way, shape, or form."
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:22 am

Originally posted by Bamf Bunny
Message original : DoomInABox
a friend who you're not terribly close to, but you still sit together for coffee and talk on the phone. [...]
When she didn't seem to be able to [leave the guy we didn't think was right for her] we confronted her, and tried to break it to her gently [that he was seeing someone else]
Well, in a bizarre twist of nature, it turned out she knew about everything and had already forgiven this guy. [...] we pressed her: could she really think this was going to change? She did, and didn't care what we thought, and told us to back off. [...] I'll never know: we haven't spoken in over a year and I doubt we ever will again.
In other words:

"We didn't know this girl very well, but we knew how to run her life better than she did. We gave her unsolicited advice about the most personal matters possible until she finally broke down and told us personal information that she'd kept private up to that point.

But that wasn't good enough for us, and we kept after her about it until she told us to fuck off. Strangely enough, she is no longer my friend in any way, shape, or form."
I'm not sure I could be friends with someone who was actually going to marry a cheater. Not if she expected the person to stop someday. People who lie to themselves make me very uncomfortable.
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Post by DoomInABox » Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:47 am

Originally posted by Bamf Bunny
Message original : DoomInABox
a friend who you're not terribly close to, but you still sit together for coffee and talk on the phone. [...]
When she didn't seem to be able to [leave the guy we didn't think was right for her] we confronted her, and tried to break it to her gently [that he was seeing someone else]
Well, in a bizarre twist of nature, it turned out she knew about everything and had already forgiven this guy. [...] we pressed her: could she really think this was going to change? She did, and didn't care what we thought, and told us to back off. [...] I'll never know: we haven't spoken in over a year and I doubt we ever will again.
In other words:

"We didn't know this girl very well, but we knew how to run her life better than she did. We gave her unsolicited advice about the most personal matters possible until she finally broke down and told us personal information that she'd kept private up to that point.

But that wasn't good enough for us, and we kept after her about it until she told us to fuck off. Strangely enough, she is no longer my friend in any way, shape, or form."
I think you misunderstood, Bunny ...
"friend who you're not terribly close to, but you still sit together for coffee and talk on the phone."
I put that in the Hypothetical Situation because I know the closer you are to someone, the more likely you'll risk a confrontation to protect them. I didn't want that influencing the situation. You know, scientific unbias and all that.

I was actually much closer than that to this REAL friend of mine ... we were in classes together and sat together at lunch nearly everyday ... she'd give me advice on my artwork and we'd help each other with homework and such. All that changed pretty drastically ... losing a friend like that is hurtful and I would have avoided it if I could, but I couldn't let something like that go because I cared so much. The final straw was when she went to Spain for a week ... she had hardly left the country for eight hours before this guy was f*cking his Barbie doll again ... I didn't know what was wrong with her, that she knew about this and didn't ditch him ... and it's not like we came on strong, demanding that she break up with him or anything ... we just asked her did she really know everything, and why was it okay with her? The evidence was right in front of her face, for God's sake! This guy would ditch her in the middle of the day to run off with this other girl to her car. I for one, wanted to know what the hell he had on her that she thought this was okay ...

And it's hardly a personal matter anymore when this guy is throwing it all over the school that he's doing the horizontal tango with this bimbo while his girlfriend sits complacently by. I don't know anyone who could sit by and do absolutely nothing when this is involving one of their closest friends. I probably would have lost her anyway if I'd just ignored this, but at least I can say I cared enough to risk it.
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Post by kladyelf » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:15 pm

okaayy, this is pretty much off the top of my head so here goes...

1 - Truth, - being honest but not cruel "speaking the truth in love" (the biblical way of putting it) usually saves trouble of some kind or another later on, as one lie tends to build on another, even little white lies..
Of course no one is perfect, i like to think i try to be as honest as possible, however there are times when people do lie...
2 - one can be more important than another um... i dunno, if perhaps you were lying to save someone's life (but then you would need to be *really certain* their life was in danger)

3 - Honestly i don't know, that is something that is individual, as it combines truth/lies with the ability of knowing when or how to speak, i do know that if you are someone in a position of trust who lies a lot and that is found out then that hurts a lot of people, damaging the trust held in that person, as well as the position itself - just think of someone, (i won't say any names, i'm sure people can come up with lots of examples) a leader in a country or someone in a position of authority as someone who told lies - and the consequences of that

4 - Old fashioned maybe, (there may be a more modern way of saying it) but i do not think it is outdated
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Post by Bamf Bunny » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:14 am

Message original : DoomInABox
I think you misunderstood, Bunny ...
I offer a different interpretation of the facts as presented. That's not misunderstanding, as I see it.
... we were in classes together and sat together at lunch nearly everyday ... she'd give me advice on my artwork and we'd help each other with homework and such.
Personally, I find that the list of classmates I'll sit together with lunch and help with homework is a lot longer than the list of people I consider entitled to criticize my love life.
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Post by DoomInABox » Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:47 am

I'm sorry I found your "different interpretation" to sound like a judgement on my personal life. I didn't intend for something I meant merely as an example to be an opening for criticism by someone who has never even posted to me before or let alone actually met me. I do not appreciate being patronized for decisions I made over a year ago when all I asked for was advice on writing an essay.
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Post by Bamf Bunny » Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:01 pm

Message original : DoomInABox
I'm sorry I found your "different interpretation" to sound like a judgement on my personal life. I didn't intend for something I meant merely as an example to be an opening for criticism by someone who has never even posted to me before or let alone actually met me. I do not appreciate being patronized for decisions I made over a year ago when all I asked for was advice on writing an essay.
Oh, I'm so sorry! I mean, I know you wrote
I need some "honest" answers
(I should have asked myself why there were quotes around "honest.")

and
But consider the fact that the majority of people like being told what they want to hear instead of what's really true ...
I thought that mean you weren't one of the people who didn't just want to be told what they wanted to hear.

Look. You posted in a public forum; take what you get. If you don't want anything but praise from anyone but your personal friends, start a LiveJournal and limit comments to the posters of your choice.

It looks to me as though you're fishing for people to pat you on the back and tell you how great you and your friends are for ganging up on someone to make absolutely sure she knows how badly the local gossip reflects on her. I think this stopped being "help me with my homework" when you volunteered what you'd actually done and justifying it.

But you did apologize for misunderstanding, and I appreciate that.
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Post by Tatu » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:45 pm

Originally posted by DoomInABox
I'm sorry I found your "different interpretation" to sound like a judgement on my personal life. I didn't intend for something I meant merely as an example to be an opening for criticism by someone who has never even posted to me before or let alone actually met me. I do not appreciate being patronized for decisions I made over a year ago when all I asked for was advice on writing an essay.

Then don't post it on a public forum with people you don't know! if you only want the people you know and you only want people to tell you what you want to hear, then ask your friends.

If you're gonna post on a forum with a thousand plus members who dont know you and ask for "Honesty" then deal with it when you get it.
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