Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

 
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Angelique
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Post by Angelique » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:48 pm

Ya think? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. *prays for atheist writers*
I think a talented enough writer can write a religious character well and respectfully even if he or she happens to be an atheist. Even a not-so-talented writer can pull it off if he or she does thorough enough research and has enough respect for the character and the character's background.

What we have instead are examples of people simply not caring about sensible character development. We have Kurt being a very prayerful, devout Catholic... who then beds his foster sister... and again after he finds out she's his foster sister... beds a baddie just because he's lonely and she's there... says he never even goes to church...then enters the seminary... and demonstrates an occassionally abysmal understanding of his faith's teachings and practices even when he thought he was a priest, then smooches one lady while he has eyes for the lady his best friend is dating.... AAAAARRRRRGGGHHH!!!!

One reason why I think it would be a good thing to find Ms. Right for Kurt and have them marry and stay married is that it could very well spell the end of such convoluted crap.

(Surprisingly, I have little to no complaint about the times when he gets angry with God, and tells God all about it. A more obvious sign that his faith is weakening is when he decides there's no point in talking to a god that doesn't care or doesn't exist.)

[Edited on 27/3/06 by Angelique]
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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler b

Post by Confizzle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:57 pm

Originally posted by Angelique
That doesn't mean he's given up on trying to be a better Catholic, though. And consider that he made a stab at the priesthood, celibacy, and all that afterward... no, once a fornicator doesn't mean always a fornicator.

And, of course, I could cite those affairs as examples of Marvel simply not thinking these things through.

It seems that just how devout a Catholic Kurt is doesn't depend on logical development of character, but just on what the writer's mood is at the moment.

Oh, and I've seen the movies. And I've also had some real-world experience going through a lot of stuff with people.

Hey, if sticking together through hell and high water is enough to ensure a solid relationship, I would have married my bipolar ex-fiance who refused to take his meds, because I was there for him through the fallout of his divorce from his abusive, unfaithful, ex-wife, I was there for him when he started recovering memories of childhood abuse, he was there for me and my family when my grandfather died and my brother's kidney problems were diagnosed.... Make no mistake- there was a definite bond, not easily broken there. But we would have been miserable if we remained together.

[Edited on 24/3/06 by Angelique]


I believe that Kurt remains a devout Catholic in some aspects, but when he gets too devout he usually gets angsty. Also I can cite Kurt becoming a priest as Marvel not thinking things through, it was pretty much from what I've read "Ooohh...let's make Kurt a Priest" where as most of his "affairs" were a nice part of the storyline".

The level of devotion to a religion changes with writers in other people than Kurt, I mean sometimes Kitty acts very Jewish and sometimes she doesn't that part of the difference of the writers.

I really doubt that you can compare real life relationships to comic book relationships, cause they don't make sense. I mean it comic books we got Cyclops marrying the clone of his dead girlfriend, then dumping her when his dead girlfriend isn't dead anymore. We got Professor X in a relationship with an Empress from an intergalatic empire, it doesn't make sense, I mean I'm supporting a couple consisting of a blue furry demon and the alternate daughter of Scott and Jean who has the Phoenix force in her, it doesn't make sense, so in conclusion if Chewbacca lived on Endor you must acquit, oops wrong agruement.

Out of curiosity how many people have I convinced that Kurt/Rachel is an okay pairing? :?




Added in to respone to Ang's latest post:

All right....is it that difficult to imagine that Kurt had feeling for Rachel while he also had feeling for Storm....I'm just asking cause you seem to just think that it was a mistake on Kurt's part, and while it may have been there is still proof that he had his eyes on both Storm and Rachel.

We all know that marrying comic characters off just adds more convulted crap into the arena, look at Scott and Jean.

Who is to say that what Kurt has gone thru is not sensible character devlopment, from what I've seen it's about the level of oddity with every other Marvel character.


[Edited on 3/27/2006 by confusedelf]

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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

Post by Angelique » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:02 pm

Well, just because other comic book relationships make crap for sense doesn't mean we shoudn't ask for better.

I think a Kurt/Rachel ship makes more sense than Amanda or Anjulie, but that's not saying much. :eeevil

[Edited on 27/3/06 by Angelique]
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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

Post by Confizzle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:30 pm

Look Kurt/Rachel could make more sense than any other pairing in the Marvel Universe, and still that wouldn't be saying much....

Here are some examples of the lack of thought put into some of Kurt's previous relationships....

Kurt/Kyrmi: In X-Men:The End they are married, this makes little sense, I mean in EX #16 Kyrmi shows a far greater amount of interest in Alistare than in Kurt, and also how did she get across dimensions just to marry her doppleganger?

Kurt/Storm: Alright in the comic canon Storm has shown little or no interest in Kurt until UXM #445, now this can be an agruement againest Kurt/Rachel as the first interest there was in UXM #450, anyway even when she showed some interest in Kurt he was playing second fiddle to Logan, whereas Rachel only had eyes for him. Storm was too busy with Forge in the 80's, Wolvy just recently, and now T'Challa to really be a good choice for Kurt.

Kurt/Cerise: Cerise was to be Kurt's girlfriend permenatly, but even if it was an interesting couple it made little sense, Cerise is a Shi'ar who lost her way and ended up having to learn the ropes on Earth well Kurt taught her and ended up in a relationship, well at least till she was arrested.


Now another Marvel romance that made little sense.

Captain Britan/Meggan: What we got here is a guy, who is a jerk and alcholic, taking in this creature(Meggan) and lets it sit around and watch t.v. all day, now when Meggan manages to shapeshift into a stacked blonde, now the Cap is interested.....the rest of Excalibur had to teach Meg to read while Brian was drinking or ignoring her, and yet she still called him "love" which always creeped me out.

So as my examples say MU romances rarely make sense.

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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

Post by Angelique » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:40 pm

That's why I think Christine's the best of a pretty bad lot, but I still stand by my vote for "anyone but them"- simply because Marvel needs to improve character development and put some more thought into their relationships besides "they're both hot and/or powerful. Let's pair them up!"

[Edited on 27/3/06 by Angelique]
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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

Post by Confizzle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:34 pm

Well if you disprove of every female on this list, I guess Kurt could always be gay.....would you support Kurt/Logan or Kurt/Colossus...:?

Most comic books are marketed to teenagers and we want to see action, adventure, Psylocke in her lack of a costume, we don't want no stinking character development :P . But really most of these characters have been around since the 80's and they have been developed and then some.

We can only speculate if your "They're hot, They're powerful, let's pair em up" theorem is true, we have no idea what is going on in the writers heads ,but I'm sure that there are reasons for every couple that are more complicated than that.

[Edited on 3/27/2006 by confusedelf]

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Post by Angelique » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:57 pm

And why is it that comics continue to be marketed to teenagers, anyway, when it seems more and more people buying the books are- erm- 30-somethings, sometimes with spouses and kids of our own? And many of the characters are in their mid- to late 20's or thereabouts- age when a lot of people pick one person and have a baby or two.

The success of The Incredibles is proof positive that there is a demand for comic book heroes that juggle adventure with normal everyday 40-something married couple-with-kids responsibilities.
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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

Post by Confizzle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:46 pm

Ummm....yeah....I'd buy a comic that had adventures with kids....I can see the title now.


Uncanny X-Men

Read as the Uncanny X-Men fight their greatest enemy, Colic.

Yeah, really riviting, why do you think that most kids they have in the comicverse are full grown from alternate realities or are sent into the future....cause they can't make a good storyline that often....

Aren't most 30-50 year olds that still buy comics the comic book geeks that bought them in the 70's and 80's ? I'm just asking....

The Incredible's were succesful but I'm not sure if the X-Men or other Marvel comics could pull it off....

[Edited on 3/27/2006 by confusedelf]

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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:54 pm

Wait...are you talking about the Incredibles the cartoon movie??

And there have been plently of married super heros over the years. Reed and Sue Richards? As mentioned, Jean and Scott, Wanda and Vision, Janet Van Dyne and Hank Pym (right? or did I name the wrong guy?) and thats just what I know from Marvel...

The biggest problem with marrying two characters, is that you then limit the kinds of stories that can be told with them. I understand the "but a good writer should be able to-" and if only one writer had to worry about writing these characters, he'd have the time to truly develop a relationship that would eventually lead to a healthy, strong and long lasting marriage. The problem? Writers change frequently, and in the X-books, so do characters. Let's say that a writer married Kurt off with Rachel, right? Now, that writer is long gone, and something like Reload happens, and the current Uncanny writer decides he wants to keep Rachel, but someone else wants to take Kurt and write him in a book set in Australia or something. Now, how do we handle that, now that these characters are married?

X books are tougher than books like F4 and the Avengers, because there are SO many spinoffs, and therefor characters can be split all the time. The only definate that ever existed was Scott and Jean. And even THAT has been split, numerous times. The fact is, due to this, it's just not logical to make any "permanent" pairings with characters, because a new writer will eventually come in, and retcon the whole thing....it's not a matter of poor writers, its a matter of instability within the genre....

Its just a fact of comics. It's the way things are. And honestly, I dont see many fanboys clamoring to get characters married...



[Edited on 28/3/06 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by kurt_the_quick » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:17 pm

Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette

And there have been plently of married super heros over the years. Reed and Sue Richards? As mentioned, Jean and Scott, Wanda and Vision, Janet Van Dyne and Hank Pym (right? or did I name the wrong guy?) and thats just what I know from Marvel...
yeah, those are all right. Wanda/Vision, Jean/Scott and Janet/Hank are all broken up right now.

Spider-Man/Mary Jane and Reed/Sue Richards are the only two married couples I can think of that have not had lasting seperations. and MJ is not a superhero, so I guess it's just Reed and Sue.

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Updated Spring 2006 - What Marvel Lady Should Nightcrawler be With?

Post by Angelique » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:42 pm

>it's not a matter of poor writers, its a matter of instability within the genre...

I would not blame the genre. No matter how often writers change, if the writers and editors had respect for continuity, they could pull it off.

And I thought an increasing number of the comic book buying public doesn't exactly fit the "fanboy" description. How many of us here, for instance, are adult women?
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:10 pm

Then fans in general. In fact, there's been nothing but annoyance at the Storm/Black Panther thing..

Continuity is both good and bad. Plenty of writers do have respect for continuity. They follow it, and try to work through it before they get to their own ideas. But, if we can keep things that will cause continuity issues out of the comics, then all the better for the writers in general.

The fact is, that for a marriage to occur between two characters, there had better be a hell of alot of backstory, a hell of alot leading up to it. And, frankly, writers of X-books just don't stick around long enough to be able to flesh that out. And honestly, how much time has passed in Marvel time? 7-8 years at most? Thats whats so "brilliant" about having children visit from AU's and futures (and I am using brilliant very very liberally here. Generally, its stupid, but here's the one good thing it does:) is that it shows that, yes, these characters will eventually find happiness and stability in a lasting relationship. But, even then, they don't last.....Kurt didnt end up with Amanda, as Days of future past would suggest..

The whole point is comics are confusing enough, without throwing all this in. And you want Kurt married? Write a fan fic about it. That's the beauty of fan fic....when you want to see your fav character in a situation that would not normally occur, you can.

And, please, Angelique. We've asked you to use the quotes numerous times.
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Post by Confizzle » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:10 pm

I don't see many fangirls clamoring for Kurt to be married, either, and you have to admit a large percentage of people on here are women, because...ohhh....this is a site about Nightcrawler who's fanbase has to be about 60-80 % women, if you go somewhere like X-dream or Comicxfan then you will find that there are more fanboys around. Why do you think Emma Frost had that tiny costume in New X-Men, fanboys, Psylocke in that lack of costume, fanboys, and fanboys have control over a good portion of the comic book market, using the people here at Nightscrawlers as an example of what makes up the comic book market is unfair and bias.

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Post by Angelique » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:25 pm

That's the unfortunate thing about fanfic vs. canon.

Even if fanfic is rarely well-written, there are some ficcers that demonstrate a better grasp of character development, plot, and continuity than some "professionals" do.

And we can read fic for free! (Which is why I do indeed read fic more often than I buy books.)
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Post by Confizzle » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:38 pm

In fanfiction you get what you pay for, nothing, nearly all of fanfiction is absolute garabage, there is a far better chance of finding a good comic book than a good fanfiction. Most ficcers charcter development for Kurt consists of Angst or other crap like that, most plots are cookie cutter, also we can't really say that ficcers would perform better on a comic book than the people actually writing it, we can only speculate.....but I guess we are getting off topic here, so to get back on topic Kurt/Rachel rules...:smirk

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Post by chicory » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:44 pm

I'm fine with Nightcrawler being married and having a family. But, like Nacht said, only if there's lots of back-story leading up to it. And those stories probably do work better in What If books and alternate dimensions. Fanfic is great for that too, if well-written :) - fans often have a better grasp on a character than a writer who's new to a book.

Settling a character down, like Cyclops with Maddie, makes that character less interesting because it's no longer a mystery how they end up. But, when they try to remedy that by breaking the partnership up they often make one party (Scott) look like an @ss.

Spaz> I don't think he had time to be a priest. But, wasn't there a six month gap where he started to attend seminary with the intention of becoming a priest? He was tricked into thinking he actually was one - but it wasn't secret knowledge that he was studying.

As for the the security guard - maybe he watches that VH1 Behind the Heroes too and heard that Kurt had left the X-men for a time because of that. (Wonder where they got their sources? Nightcrawler was telling everyone who would listen that he was a priest - and about how part of priest training apparently is how to deliver babies :LOL)

And yeah maybe Father Whitney was an alcoholic before he met Kurt. (But, mentoring him didn't help :shakeno)
Kim, the thai girl who is still staying at the church checks out the noise and is startled by the sight of a blue devil, but Father Whitney calms her down and takes her inside. Kurt apologizes to his friend for having startled their guest, but Whitney says that his quest is no excuse for his behavior. While the Father drinks from a hip flask, Kurt says he is close to finishing it, though the priest says that it is far from over. The slaves face an uncertain future either way. Kurt says that he will take out the leader and shut down his organization, but Whitney wants to know how things will proceed afterwards and takes another drink.

Kurt finally voices his concern about the amount of alcohol his friend is consuming. Whitney explains it as him being tired. Tired of preaching in an empty church and of mentoring a student priest who spends most of his time beating up people. Kurt says that he is trying to do his duty, but the priest says that if that were the case he should start a literacy program, or feed the homeless, but leave the international crime syndicates to the pros. Nightcrawler asks to whom, the police, the government, the Fantastic Four ? They all seem to have other priorities, and the unwanted people have to suffer for it. Kurt thinks that since he has been gifted with his mutant power, he should use it, and Whitney agrees, but also he reminds him that he is not God.
From UXN - Father Whitney was a decent character in that series - although, at the time, I did read that as though Kurt was driving him to drink.
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Post by Angelique » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:38 pm

I only think settling a character down makes a character less interesting if the writer subscribes to the notion that a wedding means the end of a story, or that a spouse is just a ball and chain.

I think Cyclops is a bad example, because I never found him a very interesting character to begin with. And I think his marriage was handled badly because after so long- his and Jean's whole relationship was defined by how they weren't married... yet. Of course getting married would put the kibbosh on that.

I liked reading Spiderman in part, because Peter and MJ face the same difficulties normal happily-weds face, all of course compounded as realistically as possible by the fact that he's a superhero. Getting married, even being happily married, never means in real life and doesn't have to mean in well written fiction "happily ever after- that's it folks. Close the book now. Story's over."

Completely doing away with the notion that a marriage has to be "happily ever after," without resorting to tactics like repeatedly killing off and resurrecting a spouse, evil ex-wife trying to kill the kid, infidelity with the newest hot telepath on the team, or other unnecessarily drastic measures can only stand to improve comic writing.

Otherwise, someone may have to remind me why I read comics instead of watching soap operas.
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Post by idsunki » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:19 pm

Hate to break it to you, but comic books are soap operas with super powers. At least most traditional comics are - especially X-Men.

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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:02 pm

Originally posted by chicory
Spaz> I don't think he had time to be a priest. But, wasn't there a six month gap where he started to attend seminary with the intention of becoming a priest? He was tricked into thinking he actually was one - but it wasn't secret knowledge that he was studying.
Yes, it was! There is a scene where he mentions it at an X-Men meeting and everyone else is like... WTF??? And he's like, but you all came to my ceremony! I remember it! You! Scott! You were there! And Scott's like, bogus.

I'll find the page and post it. :P

I was off a little on the dialogue. Dun dun daaaah!

[Edited on 29-3-2006 by The Drastic Spastic]
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Post by kurt_the_quick » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:53 pm

Originally posted by idsunki
Hate to break it to you, but comic books are soap operas with super powers. At least most traditional comics are - especially X-Men.

Take care, I've gotta catch up on my stories.
yeah, we're basically reading soaps. I love "space opera" which is basically soaps in space also. and sci-fi channel recently aquired the rights to some soap. *shrugs* I'd like to say the stuff I read and watch has better writing than soaps, but honestly I read and watch some wretched stuff. we all have our indulgences.
Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
Originally posted by chicory
Spaz> I don't think he had time to be a priest. But, wasn't there a six month gap where he started to attend seminary with the intention of becoming a priest? He was tricked into thinking he actually was one - but it wasn't secret knowledge that he was studying.
Yes, it was! There is a scene where he mentions it at an X-Men meeting and everyone else is like... WTF??? And he's like, but you all came to my ceremony! I remember it! You! Scott! You were there! And Scott's like, bogus.

I'll find the page and post it. :P

I was off a little on the dialogue. Dun dun daaaah!

[Edited on 29-3-2006 by The Drastic Spastic]
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Post by Confizzle » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:43 am

If you look really hard and squint just right you can see a tiny Kurt/Rachel moment in UXM #471 :P, well I guess you can.

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Post by elfofdoom » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:41 am

its going to be Phoinx
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Post by Confizzle » Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:16 pm

Do you mean Jean or Rachel?

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:00 pm

It was a pretty obvious Kurt/rachel moment, though it was handled wrong.. I didn't care for this issue very much (it was too rushed and I was expecting to see Lilandra and everything).. it could've been better, but overall it was okay:rolleyes:bamf
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Post by Confizzle » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:10 am

Yeah, Kurt did look a little stiff, but altogether it was an okay comic, a B-.

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