Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

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Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:40 pm

Kurt's a prophet. No way around it.

Remember this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uVallbEx9aQ/T ... yclops.jpg

if Cyclops only woulda, shoulda, coulda taken heed... ahhh...

and even right at the end of it, Kurt tries again:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/chara ... wler50.jpg

but Cyclops, well - he is who he is...right...
he opens his eyes and blammo - without shades - everything he sees gets blown to smithereens... he's got a destructive mono-myopia - a real narrow world view... he's like any abusive misogynistic megalomaniac...he sees in the world only the reflection of his own horror and rage... and is forever compelled to LEAD, CONTROL and TAKE responsibility for forces no man or mutant has any right or capacity to contain...

he's cross-eyed, he's cross-sprited... and he killed Kurt...(perhaps more intentionally than he knows) - in order to kill his conscience - a vain compulsion to destroy the very prophecy his actions continually redeem...
http://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... lydied.jpg

so what does a prophet do after this has happened to him...when he comes back?

part of me really hopes Kurt confronts Cyclops...face to face...
that maybe he goes to him...takes his sword...draws an 'x' in the sand...and then...wipes it away with his foot...and says...."I forgive you Scott...but that's the last time.' (BAMF)
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:47 am

Kurt has always been the moral center for the X-Men, even if he wasn't consciously doing it. I believe the first confrontation of Scott and Kurt is going to be memorable. If it isn't, I will be disappointed. The Wolverine/Nightcrawler first encounter was awesome, and so was the Storm/Nightcrawler reveal. Here's to hope.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:02 am

And to Hope.


I think that she will be a meet-up that will also be worth taking note of.

I believe Scott and Kurt are going to have to have a bit of a reckoning. Especially with Scott being directly responsible for the death of Xavier and all that jazz.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:09 pm

and here's to HOPE!

It's good to hear from you two and i got inspired to go ahead and write THIS very reckoning we've agreed is necessary (i posted it over in the fan creations section)

it's going to be part of a graphic play i'm writing...i'm not sure if THIS scene will end up being in this very form... but it will certainly have this 'flare'

any comments from you two on this and/or the first two scenes i posted would be awesome...

i agree with you both...
these one on one reunions are KEY stepping stones up the winding way that'll establish who Kurt will be in this new age.
Jason Aaron has done a great job thus far...he's set a great high standard for how Kurt is going to be written
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby the_lone_bamf » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:55 am

Haha, weirdly, I happened to read your story just earlier today! We really need more stories like that, that explore a relationship between two characters with a lot of history working together. I too am very eager to see what the world looks like to Kurt's eyes after he comes back- the new series is going to be amazing.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:55 pm

the_lone_bamf wrote:Haha, weirdly, I happened to read your story just earlier today! We really need more stories like that, that explore a relationship between two characters with a lot of history working together. I too am very eager to see what the world looks like to Kurt's eyes after he comes back- the new series is going to be amazing.


Hey lone Bamf, Thank you for reading my scene! Thank heavens somebody's reading 'em.
The new series is going to be so good, there are soooo many amazing possibilities for Kurt NOW with all that was and all that's transpired since Second Coming.

And THIS has been sooo long in the becoming. Nightcrawler was always meant to be one of Marvel's star heroes with a fully realized individual presence. Claremont himself meant to do this a long time ago. Way back before the Fall of the Mutants, CC was planning on fleshing out Kurt's origins and making him a singular presence that would've equated to what Wolverine's individual impact has become (Kurt was meant to be the perfect equal counterpoint to his good friend - yet, ever singular and separately defined).

There was even a graphic novel planned in the early 90's

The industry is partly to blame - but so is Claremont and the other writers who lost steam mid through, lost-focus, lost-interest and wound up rushing to produce sub-par product rather than patiently allowing for Kurt's natural growth to expand and strengthen from the miraculous creative perfection of his creation by Cockrum! The saving grace is that Kurt is such an incredible creation that even after four decades of mistreatment - he has remained intact and ripe as ever for the full fruition of his becoming!!!

Here's hoping that Kurt and the revamped Spider-Man reunite for some 'team-up' heroism
Here's hoping Kurt finds a new love interest, his own Mary Jane, a love for him to rescue from distress...and to save him in turn, in times
Here's hoping Kurt doesn't join an 'X' team but stays independent at least long enough for him to establish his freedom as a defined singular person...not just a cog in the machine (you know?)

And here hoping that Kurt's adventures are epic, dramatic, romantic and swashbuckling - but tempered with the down-to-earth realism of his essential goodness and faith.

Kurt's awlays been too much this or that...pulled into extremes with expedience

Let's hope he's finally given his due respects... that Cockrum can rest easy in his peace... with his champion at long last, granted into the upper pantheon of comic book heroes...maybe even get his own movie :)
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:16 pm

I've been reading through the awful Nightcrawler "onging" that lasted 12 issues. It's got some halfway decent art with overly-bodacious babes running around and though the series came out in the late 2000's it reads like a mid-90's book. Nightcrawler's narration reads as a 3rd person perspective rather than an intriguing log of events or a diary, the order of events are far too coincidental for my taste, and the relationships of the X-Men with Kurt are particularly strange. Specifically Ororo's, which comes off forced.

Most interesting to me though is the absence of Scott in this series. His presence is accounted for artistically in some panels here and there, but he never exchanges too many words, mostly Storm and Logan. I feel like a lot of people have forgotten (even back then!) that Scott was still the team leader of the team post-Giant Size X-Men and that rabble of young, eager mutants trying to figure things out and make sense of their abilities owes a LOT to him. He too also owes more than just experience to them. They gave him his faith back, made him re-believe in Xavier's message, and saved his ass so many damn times.

Kurt's death was an immediate impact to Cyclops... and then it was as if nothing had happened at all. Logan has carried it, but it seems poeple like Asmus and Aaaron (who are also Elf fans) have stayed with that and made sure to recall upon it. I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that Bendis was never a big fan of Kurt 'cause he wasn't ever really sure what to do with him. It was Millar who intro'ed him to Ultimate X-Men, was it not?

With Kurt's presence, I'm expecting to see Scott's severe and maybe violent reaction. If I don't see something impactful, I'll probably ask for my money back. The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure it's that reunion more than any other, that will have the most weight to Kurt's return story.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:42 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote: the awful Nightcrawler "onging" that lasted 12 issues.
Ult_Sm86 wrote:reads like a mid-90's book
Ult_Sm86 wrote:the order of events are far too coincidental for my taste, and the relationships of the X-Men with Kurt are particularly strange.


:surprise Wait...what? That run wasn't so awful...maybe not great...but I actually think that Aguirre-Sacasa and Robertson made a pretty good attempt at Swashbucking Kurt into a workable story that at least proposed to lift Kurt up and dust him off after he'd been crap-tumbled through the crappy crap chaos of Austen's crappy Draco Holy-crap War crappy crap...crap. For me, those 12 issues were a Godsend. Even Claremont besmudged Kurt a few years before Austen...(Chris truly owes Kurt a few apologies - that i'm hoping he'll redeem very soon) ...But in 2000 he made his share of 'awful'. Those weird snippets of Kurt rocketing from extremes that had him in priest robes one second then half naked fighting that bad excuse for a bad guy team the dreadful dreaded Neo - then 2004 in the Danger Room romancing Rachel like he should be...only to fall completely into the way way way way back seat while the others drive a crazy la la blackbird through the x-land theme park featuring 'scary' kid's rides like X-23!

No my friend I gotta take issue with your issues about the 12 issues. For my money Nightcrawler Vol 3 was not even close to as good as Vol 1 WAY better than Vol 2 and a minor miracle for its time. :shame very minor... but a miracle none-the-less! Your points are true, well-taken and well-made...Nightcrawler does deserve better...but that was the best 'better' got during those years.

And with that hissy fit aside...

Ult_Sm86 wrote: I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that Bendis was never a big fan of Kurt 'cause he wasn't ever really sure what to do with him. It was Millar who intro'ed him to Ultimate X-Men, was it not?


What!? No!
Say it ain't so!

That's just sad. The Millar Kurt was actually a pretty interesting take...and for what it's worth the Ultimate Kurt was a character that had a lot of potential...but it seems like no matter what universe he's in, poor Kurt Wagner get shelved mid-story...half-realized and then forcibly fit into the works of something involving Wolverine, Cyclops, Kitty Pryde or the great Mutant exodus...

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Kurt's death was an immediate impact to Cyclops... and then it was as if nothing had happened at all. Logan has carried it, but it seems poeple like Asmus and Aaaron (who are also Elf fans) have stayed with that and made sure to recall upon it. I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that Bendis was never a big fan of Kurt 'cause he wasn't ever really sure what to do with him. It was Millar who intro'ed him to Ultimate X-Men, was it not?

With Kurt's presence, I'm expecting to see Scott's severe and maybe violent reaction. If I don't see something impactful, I'll probably ask for my money back. The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure it's that reunion more than any other, that will have the most weight to Kurt's return story.


You have a great point of view when it comes to Cyclops. (just this morning, I suffered through a giant rant from a Scott Summer's fanatic who shouted - if you can virtually shout - his tirade for six pages all in angry very Cyclops-ian confused manic-rage - at ME personally for suggesting - what's painfully obvious - that Scott's an a-hole or at least a little insane)...

so your take on Cyclops here is wonderful to read and I agree completely. It's a VERY important reckoning - this thing between Scoot and Kurt and I am a little worried Chris Claremont isn't ever going to let anybody but Storm (maybe) knock any sense into his man Scott. Maybe Kurt could Darkholme Scott's head into a happy place for a little while... maybe take him on a heroic jaunt through a high seas adventure and restore some of his spirit... that'd be fun :)
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Slarti » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:52 pm

sungila wrote:Wait...what? That run wasn't so awful...maybe not great...but I actually think that Aguirre-Sacasa and Robertson made a pretty good attempt at Swashbucking Kurt into a workable story that at least proposed to lift Kurt up and dust him off after the he'd been crap-tumbled through the crappy crap chaos of Austen's crappy Draco Holy-crap War crappy crap...crap. For me, those 12 issues were a Godsend. Even Claremont besmudged Kurt a few years before Austen...(Chris truly owes Kurt a few apologies - that i'm hoping he'll redeem very soon) ...But in 2000 he made his share of 'awful'. Those weird snippets of Kurt rocketing from extremes that had him in priest robes one second then half naked fighting that bad excuse for a bad guy team the dreadful dreaded Neo - then 2004 in the Danger Room romancing Rachel like he should be...only to fall completely into the way way way way back seat while the others drive a crazy la la blackbird through the x-land theme park featuring 'scary' kid's rides like X-23!


Yep, that. Which is why the idea of him taking back over doesn't excite me in the least.

While I respect what the man did for the X-Men back in the day, I think Claremont's day has passed.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:23 am

I'll take Claremont over Morrison ANY DAY for an x-Book.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:47 am

sungila wrote:[…] after the he'd been crap-tumbled through the crappy crap chaos of Austen's crappy Draco Holy-crap War crappy crap...crap.

:LOL
Thank you for my first big laugh of the day!
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Angelique » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:06 pm

sungila wrote:When it comes to Cyclops. (just this morning, I suffered through a giant rant from a Scott Summer's fanatic who shouted - if you can virtually shout - his tirade for six pages all in angry very Cyclops-ian confused manic-rage - at ME personally for suggesting - what's painfully obvious - that Scott's an a-hole or at least a little insane)...


No, I'm a little insane. Cyclops lately has just been written like an a-hole.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:26 pm

Well that's because what he is doing is being an ass hole because the world has been one to him and his group. That's why, as much as I hate Cyclops, I think Bendis' grasp on him is really tight and I am very disappointed he is attracted to characters with those types of character flaws in X-Men, when he has shown great capability in writing characters similar to Kurt in Ultimate Spider-Man series (and his Avengers run. AND his Daredevil run.)

I think it's safe to say Claremont and Bendis need to sit down and talk out how this meet is going to happen because a) it has to and b) it has to go down pretty great at first and then really start to spiral out of control. Kurt will not like what Scott is doing, not one bit. But when he sees what has happened to lead him to that decision making process, he might try to beckon him back into the good graces of Avengers, Wolverine, & others.

BUT... Then again Kurt might also agree with Cyke and say that mutants need not fit the pigeon hole that the Avengers and the rest of the homo-sapien world (meta or not) set for them. It will be interesting...
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:20 pm

Wow. Amazing! I love this.

I want to quote you all...hug you all...challenge you to duels!

Such intelligent, passionate (dare I say) swashbuckling parley with all parties equally deft in phrase…got this galleon a rockin’! It’s because we hit on something here everybody…THIS Cyclops/Nightcrawler juxtaposition – this rife tete a tete between two men who embody such diametrically polar manifestations of equally strong ideals…men of matched passions, faith, resolve and strength…but complete opposites…so far removed that they whirl the circle all the way around and stand side by side with an impossible inch between them! AND I CHRISTEN THAT INCH: HOPE! Hooray! En garde! Bravo!

I cheer Slarti for his bold (and understandable) defiance of Claremont! Touche
I commend UltSm86 for his beautiful imaginative vigor. Having Bendis and Claremont work it out (preferably with Nightscrawlers in attendance) would be (never-gonna-happen) awesome. You just got this great (Bendis-sonian) enthusiasm that pushes beyond whatever bullshazim may confront you. It's great UltSm86
I :naughty in the general direction of Wahnsinn for acknowledging my eloquent critique of Austen's work (ah, how can anything be soooo bad that it actually still has me smelling my hands for nearly a decade after touching it)
I concur with Angelique who gallantly says it straight! I celebrate your insanity and humbly acknowledge my own.

And me, I am more than willing to admit a Wanger 'bias' but its a bias of being. I’m just a Nightcrawler guy and for me…Scott’s like my big brother (who I love…but IS my opposite in every way – and sort of a bully…)

So, like me and my bro, this 'reckoning' between Scott and Kurt has been decades in stewing- and shouldn’t condemn either Kurt or Scott to anything but serve to solidify their characters and reestablish the core spirits that make them such powerful (albeit completely different) heroes.

Kurt died once, like a sacrificial lamb – Scott’s killed with the same moral consequences – equating to an emotional death…so they meet…both ripe for resurrection and redefinition : but not to change…(hopefully) – to restore!

Without Kurt, his North Star of moral navigation...Scott (in my opinion) broke anchor...and became his own worst villain (which he does a lot)...only not quite to this all-out barbaric degree…so let them meet and be at odds for awhile…let them, in time and through trials…come together with their own personal strengths whole and intact…and then let them reestablish – together – the spiritual balance of the ‘grown-ass adult’ x-men family.

What happened to them both is a sign of the times? Yes...
Kurt's a beckon of a better way even when that way seems impossible or unreal...
that's who he is... a hero, a chivalric musketeer - you don't need a cerebro to locate his 'gift' - it's there over and over again... indelible...it's goodness...pure, human goodness.

As far as the Scott vs. Wolverine thing goes... I'm not touching that. I never intend to. I'm not even interested in that. It's corporate...it makes for bad writing - i agree that it doesn't add up or even make any sense.
Even if that conflict 'should' be real...it shouldn't be the thing upon which the x-books are grounded. Scott should never have been made into Magneto…that was done well once and a thousand times – it’s available in trade paperback, special editions and even on DVD… serious.

I'm not into it, not into the ever-darkening shock reality-show that x-books have become. It's a corporate carousel.

I like what Jason Aaron is doing with the Amazing X-Men and of course since I'm a huge Nightcrawler fan - I love the fact that his return in that comic has heralded a minor miracle in the world of X! A return of adventure, fun and likeable...believable...heroes that can instill something good in their fans and readers.

I don't want to discourage anybody from sticking by and standing with their favorite heroes and/or writers and/or books...it's ALWAYS been this way in comics... and that's part of what I love about them.

People who relate to one character - believe in that character...find a part of themselves in that horizon and read-into that expanse a bond that should be defended with passion. That's great and I commend anybody who has the creative spirit to 'take it there'. Without fans, good fans...smart, loyal and long-timers - comics would have died a long time ago.

There's a comic book hero for everybody... as diverse as we are... even those of us/them that stand in complete contradiction - through those contradictions we do and must find a common bond... that's what makes creation eternal and invincible!

Scott's insane :-) I am too, so’s my brother and Angelique and we all know Kurt’s as wacky as they come
but we all have hope (our own kind, our own 'power' our own signature)...
but we all got that same sort of mutant - arachnid-like impossible hope –
that you gotta be crazy to have it kinda hope

Ja, there's always hope & possibility
a whole galaxy can't fill that impossible inch… :)
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:30 am

It's corporate...it makes for bad writing - i agree that it doesn't add up or even make any sense.


Oh, ho-ho.

I completely disagree. I think the debate between the two makes perfect sense for a multitude of reasons.

There's a levels of frustration between them, layers even. Like an onion. Or parfait.

The outer layer is the surface stuff, they are angry at how the other one operates. Logan is go in and knock it down, tactics are for losers and military approach is for people who are looking to get shot. Cyclops is tactical beyond tactical, he's a logician and sees everything as a chess board, the way Xavier trained him. He also believes in the military approach because he knows that, deep down something Logan ignored for so long, is that mutants must defend themselves and work together, not solo, before they run any type of offense, and that is what is so great about their relationship.

and NOW THEY SWITCHED!

Logan is now the tactical one, running a school meant to better the mutant children of the future! It's now him! He's the one seeking to defend and strengthen the mutant race. Meanwhile Scott is worried about the mutant REGIME. He's concerned with preservation so he has gone on full offense. The X-Force was just the beginning. When Logan swore it off (and then restarted it to protect his students instead of doing hitman jobs for Cyclops -- a discovery Kurt made minutes before his untimely demise) he decided he was going to embrace the motto that Xavier had long fought for. A motto that strengthens the bonds of mutant brethren by urging education instead of indoctrination, talent searching instead of weapon grouping, and skill lessons instead of defense lessons.
Scott has not dove off the deep end, in his defense. What he has seen is beyond acceptable and it's a surprise that Logan, who has been around a lot longer and seen a lot worse, and done a lot worse, has not jumped onto his ship.

But it is because of this schism, this divide, that we get such a great dysfunction in functionality of the books. Logan's team are just as concerned with preservation but they're are more interested in Xavier's message. Scott, in his deepest parts of his heart, believes Xavier was right, but his time to be right has passed and the world is more violent and more dangerous. There is more hatred, more racism, and more stereotypes out there and he is determined to fight them off.

It is why he chose the once mortal enemy of the X-Men and closest companion of Xavier, Magneto himself, to join his team and guide him in his generalissimo decision making process. Magneto has fought the war longer, but no longer is he allowed, by Scott's orders, to act or function as a terrorist (which is where this Magneto ongoing is most likely headed -- the long road back to that, as it has already begun). Magneto is being held to a higher standard now, Scott's standard- which to Summers himself is higher than Xavier's even. They are their own nation, their own army, their own people, -- they govern themselves and represent themselves and they will not partake in any Avengers bull-ogna or intergalactic crap...

Until well looks like they do. Scott is running away from decisions and responsibilities, something he should sit down with Peter Parker about... (not right now though, he's not right in the head currently. Get it? ;) ) No, Logan is the one running head first into responsibility. I was never much of a Logan fan, I agreed he was put on titles to sell comics, but I think the direction he's taken lately is one of general (and genuine) character growth. He has become a figure, finally, rather than a place holder by the company. He doesn't feel like a book end to a team of characters, he has his own place now and his own voice. Not just the role to play, but a character with depth and valuable input, be it the Avengers, Alpha Flight, or what-the-hell-ever.

Scott and Logan are truly at ends for one reason above all though, and that reason was addressed by Jason Aaron in issue number 39 or 40 of Wolverine & the X-Men... and that is the love for Jean that they both share.
Logan knows that Scott shouldn't be the scary one, that was always him. Jean loved them both... but she was always Scott's. Logan was too brutal, too real, Scott was safe and smart. She pitied Logan and sympathized with Scott, and after losing her Scott's path has been a long, downward spiral, and every event has a played a key role into his development into the person he is now.

But all of that can be thrown to the wind when Nightcrawler steps back onto the scene. The one person who can walk into Scott's super-safe-island-of-safeness and look him in the eye and say "are you ever really safe?'" "Is this really where you belong?" ... or maybe he will look at Logan and say "Clearly Xavier's message is gone with his corporeal body and perhaps it's time to move on, evolve, and begin anew." I doubt it though.
Something tells me he is going to understand Scott, tell him he made good decisions... but now it's time to come home...

and then Scott is going to cry like a baby.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Wahnsinn » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:29 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Something tells me he is going to understand Scott, tell him he made good decisions.

Except that he totally didn't. He parked the vast majority of mutants on an inarable, initially sinking, island made of a remnant of Asteroid M. If that's not a metaphor, I don't know what is. And also, did he forget Genosha? Half of the mutant race got obliterated due to being on a much nicer island that was sanctioned by world governments, unlike his little wannabe new nation off the coast of the US. Repeating Magneto's old mistakes does not a good decision make, and he's lucky he didn't get branded a secessionist.

Tactical? He sent a short-range combat teleporter to do the job of a long-range transport teleporter. He either wanted to put Kurt in mortal danger or is a tactical moron. Kurt should be pissed at Scott for sending him on a suicide mission. He should probably also be mad at himself for taking on said mission, which brings me to my biggest pet peeve for the Utopia period: the other characters were written as idiots and sycophants to make Scott look like a genius leader. Any dissension was fleeting because the dissenting character left shortly thereafter (Beast, Madrox) or died (Kurt).

Grrr. Argh. :LOL

As for the debate, I think Logan was the wrong choice to be the champion of the children. This is the guy who took Kitty and Jubilee on all sorts of dangerous adventures, and it's not like he's got the best track record with his own kids. Has he killed all of them now? I do, however, think it can work as an evolution of his character to go along with such a cause on the grounds that he's learned from the past. Ororo, Kurt (had he been alive), or even Rogue leading the charge would have been more believable.

I do agree that Scott runs from responsibility. It makes him dangerous to those around him, and he's completely in denial about it. He'll probably get one of the kids under his care maimed or killed. Will he own up to it or see it as the cost of the mission? So far, he's sided with the latter. Maybe a confrontation with Kurt will create the crack that eventually breaks him from that view. I'd like to see that. It'd help redeem the character in my eyes.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:51 pm

I do agree that Scott runs from responsibility. It makes him dangerous to those around him, and he's completely in denial about it. He'll probably get one of the kids under his care maimed or killed. Will he own up to it or see it as the cost of the mission? So far, he's sided with the latter. Maybe a confrontation with Kurt will create the crack that eventually breaks him from that view. I'd like to see that. It'd help redeem the character in my eyes.

Scott has lost more people than Logan.

Have you not been reading?
Repeating Magneto's old mistakes does not a good decision make, and he's lucky he didn't get branded a secessionist.

He basically did. And that's what he wanted. This whole series has been about Scott dealing with all the decisions he's made since Divided We Stand, more or less. Just because he's tactical, doesn't mean all his decisions always pan out. I think griping and straw-picking over longrange versus shortrange teleporters is a quick way to bury your comic under unrealistic standards of operating on a "realistic" level, rather than one of speculative fiction. Also, I would hope Scott just trusted Kurt more, but that's a different story. There was no getting away from Bastion at that point.

What I can point out about Scott's decisions and Logan's is that Logan has not only "learned from past mistakes", which really doesn't give credit to what he actually has accomplished in his series, but he has also formed a school built by his friends (Hank, Bobby, Rachel, Ororo, Doop, etc...) for the students that needed them. Xavier's mansion was great but it got trampled a lot. Sure Jean Grey Academy gets attacked every other week but the series ran 41 issues and it never toppled. The security levels in there were enormous and they were well thought out (on Logan's part) to create a place made by mutants for mutants. Not a once broken home upgraded a little for an old man's super-team of kids in pleather.

Scott meanwhile created a base of operations and his purposes, albeit I find them not enjoyable to read, are the same as they always have been. He has made the best decisions he could to save the people he could. I'm not saying Kurt would congratulate him, I'm saying he would give his friend, (and Scott is his friend) a pat on the back, tell him everything is forgiven, - that Scott made the best decisions he could at the time that he made them, and that he did what he thought was best. But now... let's try and regroup. Let's all be X-Men again. On the same X-Team.

That's what I see happening. That's what Kurt brings to the table for these two heads-of-mutant-state.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:59 pm

Whoah ho ho hey hey ah hehm!

Wahnsinn wrote:Grrr. Argh. :LOL


me too! but i'm not touching it...or am i?

Wait, I wrote this! I made this Kurt and Scott reunion happen! Not speculatively - actually!

I think the one way to resolve any conflict is creative resolution - expansive maladjustment - take what's not broken...and the good stuff never breaks...it's got an amazing healing factor...a sort of immediate Pheonix force :)

So I say...rather than wait for one of the of Marvel's ego-inflated troop of writers - who are (even though i'm guilty of this stuff too) still way too inbreed...way too sure they 'got it'...and way too over-anxious bunch of grabby grab grabbers who all act like literary virgins stumbling into one another in a rush for homeplate...which, in their ever-fallible ambition to be aloft on the shoulders of a cheering crowd...they miss completely only to raise their arms as their being tagged OUT - which they refuse to even admit) - #@%# where was i....?

Oh yea, go and read MY unapproved, unbranded, wanna-not-be-a-wanna-be-totally-being-a-wanna-be fan fiction about Kurt and Scott and if it's not good...WRITE ONE YOURSELF!!! (i'd love to read 'em)

I warned you, warned me - i'm not touching Schism...not touching the whole battle of the BIG MEN - i don't believe in it at all. It's total red flagging the bull - and then ACTING all like (did you see that) when the bull charges... sooner or later they're gonna KILL THAT BULL and that'll supposed to be AWESOME...and MAKE SENSE...but it's all ROMAN gladiatorial crap...and abusive...and archaic in its conception...predictable - and we HAVE progressed beyond such cruel spectacle! Haven't we...? How many times do we need to have X-Men High School? Doesn't anybody ever graduate and get a job or come home from war or whatever....?

What X-books maybe could/outta do is try to grow up - or at least slack the umbilical cord a bit. It's time. Way past it. Let our proven cast of great characters emerge and stop with the stuff that keeps them repeating 10th grade over and over again. Get a GED...drop out...I don't care...

Kurt's a great example of a guy who gets crucified for finishing school. He moves on. He tries new things...continues his personal quest beyond the class room...or war room...or any room at all...he's an imperfect adult guy...doing things imperfectly but with a consistent grace of being that consecrates only through the doing...the venturing forth...ya know?

It's just hard to care about little kids getting shuffled and pawned by grown men at odds...over and over and over again...i know all us 'comic' people relate...maybe everybody can...growing up was and is hard and it feels immediate and close forever...but i'm in my 30's...most of these X-Men are older than me...and the younger ones - other than Hope Summers, Elixir and maybe a few others (i can't even remember their names but i think one of them is actually a child brood which is just...i don't even have words for how wrong that is)

Now look at that...i touched what i said i wouldn't touch...and it seems like its got a sticky coating on it... :smirk so i guess there is 'something' there... but i'm not psyched about it being on me. :shame
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Wahnsinn » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:16 pm

Frankly, Ult_Sm86, I think you're making excuses for Scott. My problem with him is that he's not depicted as what we're told he's supposed to be. What I see is a delusional monomaniac thrown up on a pedestal for no good reason. He can't be both an excellent tactician and constantly throwing his people into crappy situations that could have been avoided by a mediocre tactician. He's put a big, fat target on the mutant population by gathering as many of them as he could into one place on three occasions since M-Day: the mansion, Graymalkin Industries, and Utopia. If he had his way, he'd be doing it again now. This indicates that he does not learn from his mistakes. Calling out his decision to have Kurt transport Hope rather than Pixie, who could have completed that mission in 5 seconds, is hardly nitpicking. It shows that he disregards the abilities of his people when giving assignments and is willing to use them as cannon fodder, which he also did to the New Mutants team in a situation that cost Karma her leg. He most definitely was not branded a secessionist. Utopia faced no sanctions, no military threat, no attempts at arrest, nothing. For all intents and purposes, the US government gave their tacit approval by ignoring Scott and letting him do as he pleased. I don't expect Scott to be perfect, and I don't expect my comics to be perfectly realistic. I expect him to read as a good leader when that's what he's supposed to be, and I expect my comics to avoid being so nonsensical that I can't suspend my disbelief.

The part that is most damning to me is that Scott never takes responsibility for any of the harm he brings. It's all acceptable in service of the cause, and that's where I think a case can be made for him being responsible for Xavier's death. Everything he did as the Phoenix up to that point had really been a reflection of his own desires, like the changes made to the world to make it better in his eyes. Could the Phoenix really make him kill Xavier if it weren't something he, on some level, wanted to do?

You want nitpicking? I'll show you nitpicking! Bastion was never established as having super speed, so he should not have been able to move faster than Kurt can teleport, much less rattle off a bunch of words before making the move. Kurt should know better than to teleport into a position that puts his enemy at his back. He's not that stupid. He should have teleported behind Hope then teleported away with her in rapid succession. Running with the scenario given, he should never have been able to grab and teleport away with her because his chest should have exploded, leaving bloody indigo-furred chunks all over the pavement. :P

I expect Kurt to forgive Scott because that's the kind of man he is. I would be disappointed if he gave Scott a pat on the back because what Scott needs right now is a slap upside the head. I would like to see Kurt give his old friend a reality check; then, he can try to make everybody work together again like the family they used to be because Kurt's a big softy. :D


sungila wrote:WRITE ONE YOURSELF!!!

Working on it! Now, go read your messages if you haven't already. :smirk
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:39 pm

I dunno guys...

I just read the books and enjoy the stories being told to me by the people writing them. There are times when we, the fans, like to think we know the characters better and know their decisions better than the writers...

But as Sungila sorta pointed out (unintentionally)-- we're not exactly the ones writing the story. They are.
I do not know better than Brian Michael Bendis, I have not been studying this stuff for months meticulously and have levels of editors who know the history of every character combing through my every word, and art editors coming through my artist's depictions to make sure Logan's mutton-chops are choppy enough. And I'm paying them money to give me stories that are interesting, and right now Scott's fall from grace is way more interesting than anything else. ... just not interesting enough a cast for me to purchase the title (but enough for me to follow the story).

And I have not had a problem with reading any of these books. I have problems with Scott's decisions, but it's his ability to make good AND BAD decisions, that keeps me reading.

'Cause y'know, fallible, human characters are easier to read than characters who always get it right.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby sungila » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:17 pm

You two are evenly matched (one of you is more right than the other - but i'm not saying who) because this is great - of course i totally agree with everything you have both said. Much of it is what i would've said... but ah, you know me...well enough by now...to know what a Wanger I am... ever the distracting mediator, the loving misfit...i never seem to be able to get much steam for big debates...i'd rather pary and play...and fight when i have to...preferably when there's a damsel in distress or utterly impossible odds against a diabolical hoard of villainous currs... then it's on :evil

This is just like UXM (#201) in which a depowered mow-hawked Storm and an emotionally battered Cyclops duke it out in the danger room to decide who the leader of the X-Men will be. (PS...that's my favorite period Storm vs my favorite period Scott) so i'm giving you two HIGHEST praise!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UptUWbCJRDI/U ... 0/plot.jpg

this convo between you two is like that... in sooooo many ways.... i love it! I mean IT is that comic...at least, you know, to me it is...sort of...in a stretchy silly putty type way...but exactly like that!

all i'd say is nobody, nobody... no matter how much research or how many comics they've written or read...nobody knows BETTER than anybody what's in another's head, heart or guts...i said it before...THANK GOD WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT AND THAT THOSE DIFFERENCES CELEBRATE OUR ONENESS OF UNIQUE UBIQUITY - as long as passion x is equal to passion y....then the integer can be anything.

also the things we create...anything we make...is amazing mostly because once we make it...it has a life of its own and all we can do is support it...help it however we can...and eventually let it go and hope it lives a good life...

when it comes to comics...what matters most is that we honor what's alive...and be honest about what's not...lay to rest what's not

there's a whole lot of 'not' in comics these days... beware of zombies...real resurrections are okay....but check for a pulse!

BUT ABOVE ALL! Oh man, did you see the pre-publication Amazing X cover with Mystique and Kurt sword fighting yet? That just, it's just... makes me want to do a joyful dance, hug a stranger...jump for the moon!
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Wahnsinn » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:57 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I just read the books and enjoy the stories being told to me by the people writing them.

I want to enjoy them. It hampers my enjoyment when they make no bloody sense! :P
I've been buying and reading the vast majority of team X-titles for at least 15 years. I started with Excalibur (X-Calibre at the time) and branched out, and backwards, from there. I've gotten select solo titles over the years as well, including Wolverine's for the last 5+. I'm fine with characters screwing up, having problems, and evolving. I expect that. What I am not fine with is normally intelligent characters suddenly acting like complete twits for no reason. That makes no sense and, for me, amounts to character assassination. I'm also of the show-don't-tell school. That has been my biggest issue with Scott's portrayal for the last decade: I keep being told he's such a great leader, but it doesn't show.

Actually, if you gave yourself a little credit, you probably do know better than Bendis and the editors. I don't know what's going on with Bendis, but he's managed to contradict his own continuity since he's been on the X-titles. (His X-23 sounding nothing like X-23 is a whole other issue tied to his tendency to write nearly all of his characters with the same voice. It's a weakness that stands out on team books.) He's been doing so many titles for so long that maybe, just maybe, he's in danger of burning out. Everybody needs a break to refresh. Obviously, the editors should have caught and corrected those mistakes, but they didn't. And Blob with powers? He got depowered on M-Day, and it wasn't an off-panel thing. I hope some explanation is provided for that; otherwise, that's a significant continuity error.

Yes, I'm picky. I have high standards, and I won't apologize for that. :smirk


sungila wrote:BUT ABOVE ALL! Oh man, did you see the pre-publication Amazing X cover with Mystique and Kurt sword fighting yet?

Another image worthy of a poster. I need the one of Kurt perched on the boat helm with the bamfs. :love

I think I like what you said about honoring what's alive. But what really ever dies in comics? Continuity? ;)
There's certainly very little aging. It's only supposed to have been 13-14 years since the FF got their powers. I'm getting older than my favorite character, and he's been appearing in comics longer than I've been alive! It just ain't right.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Angelique » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:47 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I dunno guys...

I just read the books and enjoy the stories being told to me by the people writing them. There are times when we, the fans, like to think we know the characters better and know their decisions better than the writers...

But as Sungila sorta pointed out (unintentionally)-- we're not exactly the ones writing the story. They are.
I do not know better than Brian Michael Bendis, I have not been studying this stuff for months meticulously and have levels of editors who know the history of every character combing through my every word....


Sometimes the fans do know better, having devoted years or decades rather than mere months to the subject. As for editors, well, you have summed up very well what editors are supposed to do. However, that's not what's been going on at Marvel, which has a history of hiring and promoting "editors" with little to no real editing experience. Had anyone actually done any real editing on Second Coming, somebody would have caught problems like Nightcrawler's suddenly and inexplicably sluggish teleportation, and Fraction's dreadful "funeral" issue would have also been a much better book.
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:01 am

At this point we're hashing out old debates that don't even need to be discussed anymore. His funeral happened, Kurt died, Scott killed Xavier, and we can't change it so let's be excited for the future stuff coming.

Yes, I'm picky. I have high standards, and I won't apologize for that.

Bendis is an incredible writer and I don't get fans sometimes. I'm not saying you're being overly brutal, you're more than entitled to your opinion. But you're not the first to say that and you're certainly not saying it in as crass or unprofessional a way as others have said.

I am always trying to figure out how someone is either so talented fans want to see more books by the writer or there are "so many" titles being written by that one writer that "clearly" they're strained or stretched out.
Like sungila said, there's always going to be differences and different appreciations. Brevoort would be the first to tell you, if you don't like it don't buy it. I think the important thing is you support the books you enjoy.

But more important than that and above all these other small details (and I consider Scott's characterization in his development small), if there's going to be an opportunity to bring Scott back to the way people remember him (though there's always back issues for that)-- it's going to be his opportunity to speak with Kurt.

As for Mr. Bendis on too many books... here is the man himself.

Q. from the fan:
askerjonnstark asked: Question: for the writers who pen multiple books, does it affect the quality on their books, for instance if he would focus in one only would it be top quality or it doesn't matter how many books he tackles...


Answer from Bendis:
Honestly, opposite.

Everybody to their own devices. My brain multitasks. It always has. Even when I was making my award-winning debuts I was working on 17 other projects. It’s a challenge to me that I need to do.

it is funny when someone doesn’t like a choice I have made they assume it’s because I am overworked or something but that’s really never the case. I spent a lot of time with the Scripts, sometimes months and years so it’s not a matter of time it’s just a matter of you didn’t like the choice I made

i’m very lucky that I get to publish a lot of material but I’m also even more lucky that I don’t have to hustle for work like I used to. Hustling for work took a lot more time and was a lot more distracting and abusive to my psyche then working on multiple books

Every script gets a lot of love and take a lot of time for me. It’s never gotten any easier I just got to publish more than some. Don’t forget my name is on the cover of this book. It is, maybe, all I will be remembered for, I take that very seriously.


I find Bendis' characters to be far more real than any of the current X-writers, Wood aside. Brian Wood's XX-Men is the best. While the W&tXM writing team was great, Jason Aaron was shooting for the old school fans with the funny. Good character building for Wolverine but not really anyone else. Hopefully the new writer will kick it up a notch. AND BRING KURT INTO THE FRAY!
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Re: Kurt & Cyclops (the last forgiveness)

Postby Wahnsinn » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:02 pm

What Angelique said!

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Bendis is an incredible writer and I don't get fans sometimes. I'm not saying you're being overly brutal, you're more than entitled to your opinion. But you're not the first to say that and you're certainly not saying it in as crass or unprofessional a way as others have said.

Mind you, I didn't say he was a bad writer, but I don't think he's exceptionally good. He has a weakness for using the same voice, which I noticed back when I started reading Avengers titles. If it weren't for the bubbles indicating who said what, there's no way I would've been able to tell most of the characters apart. It read quite fun in the beginning, but the repeated dinner-table scenes got old fast. He does dialogue far better than he does action, though, which he often hides by keeping the characters chattering the entire time. His pacing is incredibly slow to me, but that's a personal preference. Now, I have enjoyed Scarlet. When he's focusing on one character and isn't required to do a bunch of action scenes, he's dealing in his strengths and does quite fine.

But more important than that and above all these other small details (and I consider Scott's characterization in his development small), if there's going to be an opportunity to bring Scott back to the way people remember him (though there's always back issues for that)-- it's going to be his opportunity to speak with Kurt.

Wait, wait, wait. How is Scott's characterization small? That's all a character really has. If a character is portrayed as a raging megalomaniacal twit, that's what that character becomes.

As for Mr. Bendis on too many books... here is the man himself.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Saying he's perhaps in need of a break is far kinder than saying he may well suck at his chosen craft, and he wouldn't be the first to be in denial about needing a break.

Now, of course, everybody's tastes are different. I like for characters to have distinct voices because I like being able to tell who's talking even if the art changes into something so dramatically stylized that I can't make heads or tails of it. I also prefer stories to have some downtime fun here and there because I'm one of those people who suffers from event/crossover fatigue when there's never a pause to let the characters be themselves. I'll take solid characterization over incessant action any day. :)
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