Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:34 pm

It went in a different direction than I was expecting, but I really enjoyed it. I love the way Claremont reintroduced him to the school and made him feel like an outsider again while still referencing his history with Excalibur and the X-Men. I loved the Paul Smith artwork redone with a modern twist. Regarding Amanda, I do not hate this relationship. It is something familiar for Nightcrawler to cling to and something he would be willing to defend, even after schisms and turmoil. Also, while I was really looking forward to a buddy comic w/ Wolverine, kudos to Claremont for not selling out and actually giving Kurt his own story. I don't like him fighting with sticks though. That's cool for a sparring match with Logan, but for an actual enemy? No... just no. I give it 9 of 10.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Sundown » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:06 pm

What I'm hoping with the Amanda thing is that Claremont is using it to show Kurt can't go back to who he was before, he has to learn who he is now. It's the only explanation I can come up with for the fact that he completely ignored continuity with the relationship. That's just not like Claremont to do that at all. It seems there has to be a reason for it.

The article here was interesting: http://13thdimension.com/asbury-park-co ... en-legend/

He says, part of the way down, that Kurt partly feels like he's earned a reward and wants to just run off and enjoy life, but that he's going to be presented with choices along the way.

To me, the first choice came at the end of the issue when Amanda basically asked him to choose if he was part of their family or the X-Men and Kurt chose to go with Amanda. It seems reasonable to me that maybe, just maybe, Claremont will go somewhere with this, as far as Kurt learning about himself. I guess we'll see.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Starfish » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:15 am

I'm unable to share my thoughts about this first issue because I'm still not done squealing like a fangirl over this scene:

Image

:mercury :bamf
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:59 am

My back and forth with my friend via Twitter on this issue:

‏@gizmo151183
Had a reread of Nightcrawler #1. Claremont might bury this book with his script. Feels so dated.

@sniktBamfThwip [Me]:
THANK YOU!

Me:
is the magical misadventures of Nightcrawler & Amanda or are we going to see Kurt as a functioning Xman?

@gizmo151183:
I have no idea. I like plot elements, but my god that script was a struggle to read. Claremont at his worst.

Me:
he's to old man, i hate to say it but he just doesn't belong on these books.

@gizmo151183:
I agree completely. I'm hoping it gets better, but also hoping someone takes over.

@gizmo151183:
The interior art is great. Samnee didn't really sell the cover.

Me:
loved the style of the cover, not sure what the hell Puck is doing there

@gizmo151183:
Well Puck was on X Force. Maybe its a Look he's back thing with all those characters looking on.

Me:
I don't get it. Kurt would not have any involvement with X force and hasn't had any. Was he supposed to feel like he didn't --

--fit in at JGA [Jean Grey Academy]? Is there gonna be follow up w/ Logan's healing factor? I got the impression he spent all of 36hrs there & split.


Me:
Like, why line up that cast on the cover is only 2 of them show up, & it looks like they won't again for a long while

‏@gizmo151183:
true.

Me:
I mean who gives a Puck?

@gizmo151183:
brilliant.

me:
there's so much unresolved shit. He died moments after discovering Cyclops' XForce now Cyclops basically runs AllNewBroHood. Any chance of that getting worked out? like ever?

@gizmo151183
I have no idea what will happen.

Me:
with so much to catch him up on and scenarios for him to dabble in why put him somewhere "new"/really old? Why Amanda-ugh gross

‏@gizmo151183:
Well maybe Claremont refuses to write modern x-men tales.

Me:
why the hell would you give him Nightcrawler then!?

‏@gizmo151183:
Because they feel like they have to.

Me:
why didn't they just give it to Jason Aaron?

@gizmo151183:
God no. I would rather anyone else.

Me:
I was getting sick of the pirate shit honestly, but like... He set it all up, just give it to him.


‏@gizmo151183:
I see what you mean.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Sundown » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:39 am

After re-reading it(several times now), I think it's deliberate on Claremont's part. I think he's trying to show us that Kurt wants to be the man he WAS, not have to deal with the man he's become, which is probably a frightening thought for him. Nauck helped CC set it up with all the nostalgia scenes. It seems Kurt wants to live in the past and his memories of that time are seen through rose-colored glasses, up to and including Amanda. I think she's the image representation of him trying to live in the past.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like CC is going to take Kurt through a transition similar to when Excalibur started -- figuring out who he is in the present and letting go of the past.

Claremont is a lot of things, but sloppy has never been one of them, so I think there's more to this.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:42 pm

Sloppy might not be the best word to describe this script, but dated sure is. The story reads like a 90's issue of a C-List character mini arc. I was really excited for this, but I think I was giving Claremont a little more credit than I should've anticipated. The game has changed...

I re-read some X-Men Forever 2 and some more from that series and the script is really the same. It all feels horrendously dated. The action, the dialogue, the interior narration... It doesn't feel grounded in actual thought.

I think a classic example of how a complex character's inner-monologues should read is Fraction's Hawkeye. Undoubtedly a great and realistic example of inner thoughts as narration.

Another good example is Waid's Indestructible Hulk.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Wahnsinn » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:47 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:So I don't want to say I was disappointed, but I am certainly really curious why they went almost the exact opposite direction I was anticipating...

and they totally embraced the whole Amanda relationship. Ugh.

Hey, we totally agree on something! ;D

I wanted to like that comic more than I did, and that makes me a little sad. :shame
Something about it felt … rusty? Like it could've used one more draft or something. Maybe it'll find its stride over the next few issues.

Kurt running back to Amanda seems like a step backwards, given all he's been through. It'll be nice if it ends up being temporary. It could work for him to chase after old comforts before realizing what he needs to do is move forward and grow, and he can't do that while trying to live in the past. Not everything can or should be resurrected.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Sundown » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:01 pm

The unlettered preview is out for #2 http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... w&id=21154
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:10 am

I'm getting pretty f--ing tired of these Bamfs... No offense fellow Bamf lovers, but seriously what do they contribute to the story here except random, cute, pieces of art on the panel? And deus-ex-machina escape routes for Nightcrawler?
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:00 am

As one said Bamf lover, I will say that the purpose of the bamfs are sometimes forced and only minimally helpful. However, It's like having a sidekick, like Lockheed or EVA. They are not supposed to take the focus away from the main hero, but rather accentuate them. I believe the bamfs do that in a cute way. In a team book, I feel like they would clutter up the page and story. But for solo stories and titles, bring on the little guys! Also, why hasn't Marvel made bamf plushies yet??
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:06 am

I will take a shot in the dark and say the Bamfs being around will go away/dissipate over time once the whole "deal with the Bamfs" is revealed/resolved. Be that in Amazing X-Men or Nightcrawler...
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Angelique » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:22 am

Bamfing_Bob wrote: In a team book, I feel like they would clutter up the page and story. But for solo stories and titles, bring on the little guys! Also, why hasn't Marvel made bamf plushies yet??


I don't know. I hope to see Ed McGuinness this weekend. I'll ask him.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby FuzzyBlueElf » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:20 am

I read ths book liking it and feeling Claremont was bringing his A-Game then Amanda came along and I was like :(

I'm willing to follow it and be optimistic that Claremont has something up his sleeve but I feel like that won't be the case, I was just hoping to see Wolverine and Nightcrawler catch up and Nightcrawler generally just visting more X-men members or at least spend more time at the School or with Rachel his scene with her was brilliant!

I love the Bamfs though the way they're drawn now reminds me of Stitch from Disney.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:50 am

FuzzyBlueElf wrote:I love the Bamfs though the way they're drawn now reminds me of Stitch from Disney.

I love Stitch! :D

I don't think the little guys are going anywhere. They functionally are Kurt now. The whole idea of them providing his body in exchange for his soul makes me wonder if the real reason he wouldn't be able to return to the afterlife is because every single (blue?) Bamf would have to be destroyed to make it happen. Even if he hasn't picked up Azazel's longevity through the Bamfs being infused with his blood, Kurt may be dang near immortal because there are so many of the shapeshifting critters.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:24 pm

I read ths book liking it and feeling Claremont was bringing his A-Game then Amanda came along and I was like :(


Unfortunately, his A-Game is severely dated. Literally 7 pages from the first bit of action is the next dose of action. That's a pretty dated concept. Seems like Claremont doesn't know how to write a contemporary comic. :< The more I read it, the more frustrated I get when I try to find stuff I like about the issue.

Even if he hasn't picked up Azazel's longevity through the Bamfs being infused with his blood, Kurt may be dang near immortal because there are so many of the shapeshifting critters.

Yeah, they need to clarify this aspect. I'm not really sure how that works and I don't like it as it is. I got the impression we were conjuring up theories on the being infused with blood part? I mean... Kurt never said outright what he exchanged, was it? Sorta open ended "..." to it?
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Angelique » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:22 am

If Claremont doesn't know how to write a contemporary comic, I don't want him to learn! I've always liked the balance he kept between action and character moments. If anything, I kind of felt the action in the latter parts of the book was too rushed.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Wahnsinn » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:33 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
Even if he hasn't picked up Azazel's longevity through the Bamfs being infused with his blood, Kurt may be dang near immortal because there are so many of the shapeshifting critters.

Yeah, they need to clarify this aspect. I'm not really sure how that works and I don't like it as it is. I got the impression we were conjuring up theories on the being infused with blood part? I mean... Kurt never said outright what he exchanged, was it? Sorta open ended "..." to it?

Kurt used Azazel's blood magic against him. That could only happen if he has access to Azazel's blood, right? Since Kurt had no blood to feed the Bamfs, the blood that got all hissy when he cut his palm pretty much has to be Azazel's. There's a lot about his capabilities yet to be explored. That body isn't the body he had. It's made up of shapeshifting hell beasts who were fed his father's blood. What exactly does that mean for his powers, limits, and vulnerabilities?

On the last page of AXM #5, Kurt thinks, "What could a dead man possibly have to barter with?" All he had to offer the Bamfs was his soul, and he confirms it with the last three thought boxes: "Of how I sailed the seas in the land of the dead and saved billions of souls. And all it cost me … was my own."
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:19 pm

On the last page of AXM #5, Kurt thinks, "What could a dead man possibly have to barter with?" All he had to offer the Bamfs was his soul, and he confirms it with the last three thought boxes: "Of how I sailed the seas in the land of the dead and saved billions of souls. And all it cost me … was my own."


Yeah, I saw that. I just don't ... get it.

I don't get where the blood exchanges, Bamfs, soul promises, and yaddayada are all connected and it doesn't help that three writers are involved. This is how Clone Saga got turned to shit, you know that right? Too many people trying to explain the same thing w/ three different ideas of the same concept. That's why I feel confused, or at least it feels like that's why I'm confused.

Maybe I just found Jason Aaron's writing a bit meandering at the end of his run there on AXM and I just breezed through it but... I think the other two writers are slowly mulling it up.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Wahnsinn » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:44 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Yeah, I saw that. I just don't ... get it.

I don't get where the blood exchanges, Bamfs, soul promises, and yaddayada are all connected and it doesn't help that three writers are involved. This is how Clone Saga got turned to shit, you know that right? Too many people trying to explain the same thing w/ three different ideas of the same concept. That's why I feel confused, or at least it feels like that's why I'm confused.

Maybe I just found Jason Aaron's writing a bit meandering at the end of his run there on AXM and I just breezed through it but... I think the other two writers are slowly mulling it up.

This is really Aaron's baby, and I'm pretty sure he's been the only one explaining it thus far. There were hints at the blood thing in the Hellfire Academy arc in WatXM. (I'm going from memory here.) When Quentin tries to get into the heads of the Bamfs, he sees Azazel feeding blood to red ones and a figure in a white robe turning some of them blue. Later, we have Broo getting a vision and call to return from said figure when he chomps down on a blue Bamf. I'd say that implies that Broo's soul was lost until that encounter, and that's why he'd been behaving like an animal after getting shot in the head. If Kurt needs his soul rather than his brain to act like himself, why shouldn't the same be true of others?

The origin story for the Bamfs reveals them to be the offspring of a shapeshifter in the form of a lamprey and a giant hell maggot. Azazel fed them blood to make them imprint on him and get their service. Kurt found a Bamf left behind after the first battle in Heaven and goes on to enlist their aid. He would, of course, have to give something of himself to make them imprint on him. Being dead, all he had was his soul.

Apparently, Kurt came up with the idea of using Azazel's old blood magic against him because the Bamfs are, in a way, Azazel's offspring due to having his blood in them. This goes back to "The Draco" and is why Kurt says stuff about making his dad proud.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:23 pm

This is by far the best explanation I've heard on Nightcrawler's soul. However, this raises the question on whether Nightcrawler lost his entire soul or whether it's fragmented, a la Voldemort. This would explain any loss of humanity he may suffer and why Broo gained his back. Also, would he really be banned from Heaven? That's a tough question...
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:59 am

Wahnsinn wrote:
Ult_Sm86 wrote:Yeah, I saw that. I just don't ... get it.

I don't get where the blood exchanges, Bamfs, soul promises, and yaddayada are all connected and it doesn't help that three writers are involved. This is how Clone Saga got turned to shit, you know that right? Too many people trying to explain the same thing w/ three different ideas of the same concept. That's why I feel confused, or at least it feels like that's why I'm confused.

Maybe I just found Jason Aaron's writing a bit meandering at the end of his run there on AXM and I just breezed through it but... I think the other two writers are slowly mulling it up.

This is really Aaron's baby, and I'm pretty sure he's been the only one explaining it thus far. There were hints at the blood thing in the Hellfire Academy arc in WatXM. (I'm going from memory here.) When Quentin tries to get into the heads of the Bamfs, he sees Azazel feeding blood to red ones and a figure in a white robe turning some of them blue. Later, we have Broo getting a vision and call to return from said figure when he chomps down on a blue Bamf. I'd say that implies that Broo's soul was lost until that encounter, and that's why he'd been behaving like an animal after getting shot in the head. If Kurt needs his soul rather than his brain to act like himself, why shouldn't the same be true of others?

The origin story for the Bamfs reveals them to be the offspring of a shapeshifter in the form of a lamprey and a giant hell maggot. Azazel fed them blood to make them imprint on him and get their service. Kurt found a Bamf left behind after the first battle in Heaven and goes on to enlist their aid. He would, of course, have to give something of himself to make them imprint on him. Being dead, all he had was his soul.

Apparently, Kurt came up with the idea of using Azazel's old blood magic against him because the Bamfs are, in a way, Azazel's offspring due to having his blood in them. This goes back to "The Draco" and is why Kurt says stuff about making his dad proud.



Maybe I'm just choosing to not understand it because I can't believe they kept the Heaven/Hell thing and didn't debunk that. And no, I meant the BAMFS in general were being utilized in more than one title and their use is changing from title to title. I think I just don't get it, despite your valiant attempt to fill it all in for me - which I thank you for, and I'm going to be re-reading it again soon. I also feel overwhelmed with these alternate futures appearing in W&tXM. But that's another story altogether.

I think my problem with the Bamfs is when they're spread out in more than one title, their purpose feels stretched. Not sure I understand how giving them blood made them... like... bretheren of Kurt. And how any of that isn't blasphemous... or if it is why it's not a bigger deal. I feel like Jason Aaron just really wanted to do some hell stuff and got carried away. At some point, I don't know when, but I feel it will be soon, his whole being a mutant thing is gonna be up in the air. I dunno,... I just want a solid explanation. I feel like it got unnecessarily convoluted.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Wahnsinn » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:05 pm

Bamfing_Bob wrote:This is by far the best explanation I've heard on Nightcrawler's soul. However, this raises the question on whether Nightcrawler lost his entire soul or whether it's fragmented, a la Voldemort. This would explain any loss of humanity he may suffer and why Broo gained his back. Also, would he really be banned from Heaven? That's a tough question...

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I'm not exactly versed on things Potter-related, but there's only so many ways to interpret "fragmented." His soul very well may be fragmented, and possibly also compromised. If he had to feed the Bamfs to make them imprint on him, the logical conclusion is that he fed them bits of his soul. In that way, the core would be in the main body with bits spread out among the loose critters. If he functionally sold his soul to them, which is what I infer from what we've been given so far, it makes sense that they would also have a certain level of influence over his actions. What exactly is their behavioral nature, and how has it been influenced by the infusion of Azazel's blood? Would Kurt have been willing to pull a trick like using Azazel's blood magic if his soul were complete and pure? He seems, to me, a little less inhibited and maybe a little more willing to push moral boundaries. One could interpret that as a change brought about by the trauma of experiencing the impermanence of life, but an alternate explanation is that his soul is a little busted.

If the Bamfs own his soul, it may be less an issue of him being banned from Heaven than his soul being trapped with them until they're extinct. It looks like there are hundreds of them on his side alone, and we saw that there are still red ones with Azazel. Is it still possible for reds and any that weren't turned by at all to join the ranks of the blues? If it is, his soul would be unable to return to Heaven so long as they exist, or until they free him from the agreement.


Ult_Sm86 wrote:Maybe I'm just choosing to not understand it because I can't believe they kept the Heaven/Hell thing and didn't debunk that. And no, I meant the BAMFS in general were being utilized in more than one title and their use is changing from title to title. I think I just don't get it, despite your valiant attempt to fill it all in for me - which I thank you for, and I'm going to be re-reading it again soon. I also feel overwhelmed with these alternate futures appearing in W&tXM. But that's another story altogether.

I'm not sure they can debunk the Heaven/Hell thing at this point. It seems they're going for having a wide variety of afterlife concepts being true in the MU, considering the multiple hells and heavens already revealed. It'd take some retcon work for them to whittle that down.

Are you sure that more than one future has been presented in WatXM? The first showing was the 25-years-later issue with the digging up of the time capsule. That gave us old Logan, aged Bamfs, and Eye Boy running a monitoring thing. All of that is still true of the one shown where Logan's about to shut down the school. That future also contained the characters brought in for BotA. It seems, to me, that they've been focusing on that one future.

I think my problem with the Bamfs is when they're spread out in more than one title, their purpose feels stretched. Not sure I understand how giving them blood made them... like... bretheren of Kurt. And how any of that isn't blasphemous... or if it is why it's not a bigger deal. I feel like Jason Aaron just really wanted to do some hell stuff and got carried away. At some point, I don't know when, but I feel it will be soon, his whole being a mutant thing is gonna be up in the air. I dunno,... I just want a solid explanation. I feel like it got unnecessarily convoluted.

Aaron does like to go for the absurd. I'm hoping he provided a detailed explanation of things for the benefit of the editors and the writers following him. That doesn't guarantee they'll understand it, though. What a mess that could create. :X

The easiest way, I think, to understand the Bamfs is that they're a parasitic colony. They inherited the imprinting feature of their natural father and establish a bond with those who feed them, resulting in them taking on the characteristics of that person. As for the brethren thing, it's not perfectly literal in a biological sense. Azazel fed the Bamfs his blood, making them his children because they share his bloodline. Since Azazel is Kurt's father, that makes the Bamfs Kurt's brothers.

Kurt's mutant status should be up in the air. He's made of Bamfs. Now, he could potentially still test as a mutant by blood because his body is infused with his father's mutant--I'm sticking to that, dammit!--blood. He should not, however, genetically test as himself.

I think the bigger problem is what all this implies for brains. It pretty much cements the idea that brains don't matter, which is completely the opposite of how things are in the real world. Memory, knowledge, and personality are all a function of the soul in the MU. If it's revealed that Kurt possesses his old power set rather than a combo of his father's and the Bamfs', they'll be setting those up as yet another function of the soul. What good are the brain and genetics in the MU if they go in that direction? Throw Xavier's soul in an unconverted Bamf--Chuckles?--to get him back as a teleporting telepath. :rolleyes
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Angelique » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:31 am

I'm not going to sweat the details unless they goof something up. Right now, the only thing I don't like is the insistence that Kurt no longer has his soul. As long as the new body and soul stay together, Kurt still has his soul.

And if the body is an exact reconstruction of what used to embody Kurt, genes and brain will be the same.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:45 am

Angelique wrote:I'm not going to sweat the details unless they goof something up. Right now, the only thing I don't like is the insistence that Kurt no longer has his soul. As long as the new body and soul stay together, Kurt still has his soul.

And if the body is an exact reconstruction of what used to embody Kurt, genes and brain will be the same.

He definitely has access to his soul, but that doesn't mean he owns it. ;)

How could the body be an exact reconstruction? Kurt had no genetic material to give the Bamfs for them to create a perfect clone body for him. The only genetic material we know they've absorbed is Azazel's.
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Re: Claremont to return to Nightcrawler!

Postby Angelique » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:47 pm

If the body's reconstruction is a supernatural phenomenon, no DNA is necessary.

To be certain, this is not the resurrection scenario I would have preferred. That would have involved Kurt showing up, people wondering how he came back, and him shrugging and saying, "Of course I came back. I'm Catholic. I believe in these things," and then everyone leaving it at that. I could see how the deal with the bamfs could potentially work out really well for both Kurt and the bamfs, but I also see the idea that Kurt would never be welcome back in the afterlife as horsepucky.
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