I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

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I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:33 pm

The original Nightcrawler, Kurt Wagner, was the heart and soul of the X-Men. After the events of AvX, is there any chance we'll see his return? WatXM is currently one of my favourite titles and it seems he'd be perfect in it.
asked by ----------2 days ago

ask a ?
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TomBrevoort

Sorry, but this is another after AvX question, and I just don't want to answer those at the moment. I will say that it is sometimes a bit maddening that readers as a whole say that death has become worthless in the Marvel Universe because everybody comes back--and then many of them stump for their favorite characters to come back from teh dead. Bit of a mixed message there.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:40 pm

He's right.


Let me rephrase my comment however;

I think a portion of some fans asking for one thing, and another portion asking for the opposite is always going to happen. He can't serve both. However; Kurt coming back, to me, would be cheapening and wrong. IMO.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:02 pm

Naturally, I disagree. I'm not a proponent of using the death of a beloved character as a cheap ploy to add shock value to an otherwise mediocre storyline. I can see taking someone out of commission for awhile, having them injured or otherwise changed drastically for a time -- all to further a plot. But I disagree with the permanence of character death, sorry.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:07 pm

Well unfortunately there's only so many threads where I can restate my fundamental belief that characters dying creates realism, even if it's one we love (i.e. Sirius Black) -- and this is easily the 5th one I would be doing so.

I will say that of course you're more than allowed to have a different opinion, you are in fact not entirely wrong in my eyes. I believe there's other avenues but at the time, a death of someone like Kurt left an impact and a void that has, in many X-Fans opinions, still not be filled. That's a relevant story changer right there.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:16 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Well unfortunately there's only so many threads where I can restate my fundamental belief that characters dying creates realism, even if it's one we love (i.e. Sirius Black) -- and this is easily the 5th one I would be doing so.


I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't mean I like it, especially in a long-running series like X-Men. The max ten years worth of stories to be told in the Harry Potter environment is somewhat different than the relatively ageless environment of comic books. Also, Sirius was a peripheral character, not a main one. Let's kill off Ron then talk.

Ult_Sm86 wrote: a death of someone like Kurt left an impact and a void that has, in many X-Fans opinions, still not be filled.


Exactly my point. Second Coming was an unimpressive story. The years of Summers drama have been tedious to say the least. No other character has come even close. Now we have Remender writing Darkcrawler, but it isn't the same(nor should it be, bring back the original for that).
What, exactly, is left?
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Angelique » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:03 pm

I don't think Tom Brevoort understands exactly why comic book deaths are considered worthless. It's not because dead characters keep coming back. It's because the death of major characters has been overused as a marketing ploy, and more readers are seeing right through it. Also, there are better ways to bring realism into a story, like having well developed characters respond to a situation in a way that doesn't demand more than reasonable suspension of disbelief.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Slarti » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:09 pm

It looks like Brevoort was being a bit of a prick there in the way he answered, although I'd agree he has a point. Of course fandom gives mixed messages because all fans are different. Nobody's right or wrong, it's just a matter of preference.

I still think it's just a matter of time before 616 Kurt is back, in some way. I think Marvel has proved many times that dead isn't really dead, so whatever the next writer wants and can convince editors will serve a plot will happen. Some fans still decry that Jean was brought back the first time, yet there are other fans who love that story. Marvel killed Cable during the same storyline and he's already back – another example of that Summers drama you were talking about.

But for now, I do think it's interesting what they're doing with AoA Kurt. They've certainly gone out of their way to establish that he's not the Kurt the 616 X-Men know, and every time that's brought up it reminds people that Kurt is dead and at least some of the X-Men are still feeling that void. And then there's the bamf thing...
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Angelique wrote:It's because the death of major characters has been overused as a marketing ploy, and more readers are seeing right through it. Also, there are better ways to bring realism into a story, like having well developed characters respond to a situation in a way that doesn't demand more than reasonable suspension of disbelief.


Agree completely.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:08 pm

Slarti wrote: Marvel killed Cable during the same storyline and he's already back – another example of that Summers drama you were talking about.


Yep. They can bring back another Summers, yet dead is dead when it comes to Nightcrawler?

Slarti wrote:
But for now, I do think it's interesting what they're doing with AoA Kurt. They've certainly gone out of their way to establish that he's not the Kurt the 616 X-Men know, and every time that's brought up it reminds people that Kurt is dead and at least some of the X-Men are still feeling that void. And then there's the bamf thing...


I agree. He most assuredly isn't the 616 Kurt, but he is proving to be an interesting character in his own right, though more than a little sinister. Of all the alternate Kurts depicted over the years, Darkholme from the AoA arc back in '95 was the only one to capture my interest at all. Of course now Remender is talking about killing off two members of UXF, and there are only 5 to start with, 6 if you count a little used one. Let's see if the blue guy has a target on his back again.

The thing is, while yes, it is interesting to read about Darkholme and that whole nature verses nurture theme with him, he just flat isn't Kurt Wagner, either. So much of the appeal of the original was the humour and compassion (the heart and soul) and no character has come close to filling that void, as you said. To me, the rest of the X-books just fall flat since then, with the exception of WatXM.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Slarti » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:32 pm

Honestly, I feel like they didn't do much with Kurt for years before they killed him, so it doesn't matter that much, aside from removing the potential of doing something with him (for now).

So, I can remember his best past appearances and just wait, I guess. One benefit of his eventual resurrection will be that at least he will get some attention -- although God only knows how they'll bring him back. They could screw it up so badly you'd prefer him dead. ;)
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby steyn » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:37 pm

THE PHOENIX FORCE BRINGS HIM BACK!
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:33 am

Let's be honest, if you want Kurt Wagner, you can always just go read the back issues.

I have no problem reading his epic adventures, and I'll miss him, but I think he had his time to shine. My friend Jim & I often compare sports fans to comic fans.

They both wear their favorite colors/logos/costumes, they both memorize erroneous facts and stats, dates and players (writers/artists for comic fans), and at the end of the day, there's the hardcore fans.

Hardcore Pats fans had a hard time with the Super Bowl this year. They didn't want to let go. They didn't want to accept that the sceptre had passed, the era of Brady had finally changed. But why should they want to give up their era? They pay exorbitant amounts of money for tickets, paraphernalia, signed crap, so on and so forth.....
We also both agree that this happens with comic fans and our prime example is Nightcrawler. The idea of the mantle of the title "NIGHTCRAWLER" going to anyone but Wagner is too much to bare for most fans. They've invested too much time, too much money, and too much heart into him to just let him go. But that's where Jim (and myself of course) say "You always have the Superbowl Rings." Or in Nightcrawler's case, you always have Excalibur. You have Cockrum's years. You have the Mini Series.

The fact that he is so important to the X-Men that nearly every alternate version of them (X-Men, AoX, Manga, etc...) includes a version of Nightcrawler... that's poignant. That says something. His impact has been seen it's worth celebrating. But for now, he's gone.

But like the Patriots, he too can come back. Maybe.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Angelique » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:49 pm

Here's where the comparison breaks down, though. Sports stars get older. They rack up injuries. For whatever reason, their longevity as sports stars is insignificant compared to that of a well-written and well-marketed comic book character. That's only natural. But when a great comic book character loses his or her luster, nature can't be blamed here. Writing, marketing, and editorial are responsible.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:36 am

There's also the fact that no matter how many stories you write about a comic book character, there will ALWAYS be another story to write.

I could probably think of a half-dozen Nightcrawler story concepts off the top of my head - and I would love to see them all done. There's a reason why we still have new Batman stories coming out, even though the character has been around since the 1930s. It's because comic book characters don't end, can't end. When you try to force an artificial end to a comic book story, like major character death, it doesn't ever get fully worked out.

As an example, Jason Todd died, and everyone thought that was permanent. But when the time rolled around that a Robin with anger issues and a desire for a more direct brand of justice was something that was acceptable, people acknowledged that Jason still had more stories to tell, and they brought him back so that they could tell them. There aren't a lot of people who are terribly upset about Jason's return; I personally love the new directions they're going with him. The same thing is true of Bucky Barnes, and it's true of Nightcrawler.

They didn't finish their "time to shine." By virtue of being comic book characters, their time to shine will not end until there isn't a fan left willing to say, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if..."
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Freak » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:14 pm

No. You will get more stories about a character is there's a writer that is interested that also can convince editorial. For everything else you get fanfics. Quite a few fans say "Wouldn't it be wonderful if Charles and Eric were a couple?", that doesn't mean it will ever go into the comics.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:15 pm

That would definitely be a high-selling story arc though...
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:36 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:That would definitely be a high-selling story arc though...


Wouldn't it though?

On what Freak said, I think part of the problem in recent years anyway has been writers and their character favouritism. Everything in X-Men has been inundated with the Summers clan, Wolverine or Rogue. Wolverine is the cash cow; like it or hate it, there is no getting around it and Marvel as a business will milk it until the cow drops. Rogue and also Pixie for that matter, are being shoved forward as favourites of a particular writer. And anyone who has picked up X-Men titles in recent years knows about the Scemma saturation. The biggest example of this is Hope Summers being shoved down reader's throats for 3+ years now for every major story arc all the way up to Marvel's huge AvX event, in progress.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:05 pm

Rogue is not necessarily being show favoritism just because she is being developed. I don't know about Pixie, but it looks like AvX is setting up to have Rogue severe her ties with Cyke AND Logan once and for all. Just because you're not a fan of a character and a definite fan of another doesn't mean someone isn't allowed and/or capable of getting limelight.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:53 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Rogue is not necessarily being show favoritism just because she is being developed. I don't know about Pixie, but it looks like AvX is setting up to have Rogue severe her ties with Cyke AND Logan once and for all. Just because you're not a fan of a character and a definite fan of another doesn't mean someone isn't allowed and/or capable of getting limelight.


Rogue is the spotlight of X-Men Legacy. It isn't billed as being a solo title, but it amounts to Rogue and the X-Men, rather than Wolverine and the X-Men. If you've read it, it is essentially a team book with a focus on Rogue. That is fine if that is what writers want to do. If she severs ties with both of them, more power to her, though I suppose then it will have to be a solo title she carries. It is the same as Wolverine being the focus of his myriad titles, be they team or otherwise (an exception being UXF at the moment), and it has been the same for the rest of the X-Men with Scott and Emma for several years now.

It is human nature to have favourites. Writers are human, therefore it is normal for them to have favourites. I have no problem with it as long as, in a team book, other members of the team are also focused on, rather than being supporting characters on an occasional panel for the writer's choice character.

The fact that every major arc has been about Hope Summers for years now is just Marvel pushing their own agenda.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:00 am

Fanfic may in general be terrible, but it does mean that there are people left who believe in the characters. Their interpretation may not belong to everyone, but at least there are people who still care.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:49 am

The fact that every major arc has been about Hope Summers for years now is just Marvel pushing their own agenda


I feel I strongly need to disagree with this. Firstly, Hope has been a central catalyst, a playing card if you will, to a ten-year series of events leading to the decimation of mutants in the world, the revival of their race, and the consequential Avengers versus X-Men event. Call it a propaganda, call it cash cows, but comics need to make money too. And they've clearly been building up to this. Hope deserves just as development as any other character and perhaps more because she's technically only been around for like ... 2 years? 3 maybe?

I heard the same argument about Damian from Batman & Robin, people who were enraged that Tim had transitioned to Red Robin. Damian's new, he got into the Robin costume, fans like him, so they're developing him. Makes sense. Like I said, comics need money too.

You go where the money is. I hate Deadpool, I used to hate Wolverine (until W&tXM), but honestly I don't blame Marvel for cashing their cows. The more money they get from those books the more money goes towards the books I like to read. I'm fine with that.

And Nightcrawler (yes I'm bringing it back full circle) had stopped making them exponential numbers. And more importantly (far more importantly because not everything is about money, even to Marvel)... more characters needed development. Nightcrawler has had since Giant Size X-Men #1 to get developed. And he was. It's not Chris Yost's, Matt Fraction's, or even Joe or Tom Brevoort's fault that that development halted during/around Chuck Austen.
Now there's a new character, Darkholme, with plenty of time to develop. I'm willing to give it to him. I hope you guys can too.

With that said, I'm done on this subject matter. This is like topic #5 on this, and the same things just get said over and over. I don't think trying to appeal to Brevoort's better side is going to win you any points, you're better off just putting your money where it deserves to go (or not to them at all) so they know what's what. If what you want needs to happen, the book will change. Hopefully in time to keep your attention. It's happened before, it's not impossible.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Indigo_Lady » Tue May 01, 2012 2:49 pm

Exactly what I'm doing, and I made sure Marvel knows it. I will not give Marvel another penny of my money until Kurt WAGNER is back in place, and that includes the films. I'm sick to death of the anti-hero angle, as I have already stated several times. Will I ever care about Darkholme - NO, and no attempt to thrust him down my throat will ever have positive results. That's the reason why you haven't seen me, or several of the other pro-Wagner people, hanging around here much these days.

And did Kurt have his time and it's done? He's a fictional character for heaven's sake. Writers can do anything they want with him. What is needed is a writer good enough to write an intelligent character rather than a slash and blast character with no real morals, which is why Xavier and Hank have mostly gone to the wayside as well. Heaven help us that anyone can think their way through a problem rather than resorting to violence. I'm wondering if such a writer even exists at Marvel anymore.

Comic books as a media in general are in trouble. They have no idea what their market really is and continue to push for the 12-20 male , which will be their downfall in the end if they don't wise up.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Slarti » Tue May 01, 2012 6:47 pm

Indigo_Lady wrote:Will I ever care about Darkholme - NO, and no attempt to thrust him down my throat will ever have positive results. That's the reason why you haven't seen me, or several of the other pro-Wagner people, hanging around here much these days.


If that's implying that you feel the site has abandoned the 616 Kurt in favor of pushing the AoA version, I find that troubling. People should feel free to talk about any version of Kurt they like. That goes for everyone. It was a disagreement over shifting our site focus more to the AoA version that, in part, led to the split that I'm sure people are referring to last year.

There have been several threads with repetitive content, but that's going to happen with a topic that's clearly polarizing. However, we certainly don't want people who love the old Kurt Wagner -- and that includes me -- feeling like they aren't welcome.

In the past, Nightscrawlers helped spearhead a campaign to keep his solo title going. If the membership so wishes, there's no reason why we couldn't consider something similar to bring Kurt Wagner back. Think about it, let us know, create threads to talk about his possible return -- but please, don't feel unwelcome.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed May 02, 2012 4:50 am

I would love to get on board with a project to bring a return of Kurt Wagner.


However, I'm becoming more and more of a fan of Darkholme as well with each issue of X-Force. I find myself a fan of just about any incarnation of Nightcrawler.

Still a Wagner return is worth it. If they can bring him back to Excalibur-awesomeness I would be ecstatic. (X-STATIC, maybe)!
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Wed May 02, 2012 6:41 pm

I'm on board with this campaign, just say the word.

I've felt the polarity not only here, but on CBR as well, on the Nightcrawler appreciation thread.
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