AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:52 pm

Which series was this? I have never heard of this.... And I've been saying for awhile that is the direction with him they should've gone. A paranormal researcher type job. Give them a Hellboy-esque team, y'know?

And it's not the characters fault you're right. But the character got bland after too many writers tried to turn religion into his only trait/attribute.

[Edited on 24/8/11 by Freak]

[Edited on 24/8/11 by Freak]

Post by **Freak** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:58 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Which series was this? I have never heard of this.... And I've been saying for awhile that is the direction with him they should've gone. A paranormal researcher type job. Give them a Hellboy-esque team, y'know?

And it's not the characters fault you're right. But the character got bland after too many writers tried to turn religion into his only trait/attribute.

The lattest one. 12 issues long, was intended to be ongoing. He punches Mephisto there.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:00 pm

THat's not the one where he gets shot? Right? 'Cause I have majority of that and none of that is in there.

Post by **Freak** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:03 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:THat's not the one where he gets shot? Right? 'Cause I have majority of that and none of that is in there.

The punching is number 12. First comes the one with the kid that is being threatened by demons. He gets shot there, admittedly. I won't complain, though, because he gets to know a sexy nurse.

Post by **Freak** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:07 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:THat's not the one where he gets shot? Right? 'Cause I have majority of that and none of that is in there.

The punching is number 12. First comes the one with the kid that is being threatened by demons. He gets shot there, admittedly. I won't complain, though, because he gets to know a sexy nurse.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:16 pm

What the hell, what was with all the human trafficking then? And he had the collar on the whole time?

I'm sorry, this is irrelevant anyways.

LOL,

The point I'm making is that storyline, for me at the least?-- was purely about Kurt's religious take on life. He was a (pretend) preacher, he was seeking forgiveness from God in one panel, talking to Xavier in another, it was a weird mixture of his faith in Xavier's message and God's message.

It was fun, sure. And the art too. But I think it's right after that that his character started to really go down a very over-beaten path. Daredevil's done it. Smith did it with Batman and Green Arrow, we've seen it done every time with Mignolia's Hellboy. For me, there's no excuse. That's not the Nightcrawler Dave made, it's a character very few people relate to now (even if that changed in just a short time, I feel t hat's true).

Marvel is looking for an updated character, and that's fine. They found one. And for now, he'll work. I'm sure this AoA Kurt will go through a bit of inner-spirit searching himself. In my opinions? Religious characters don't work in comics anymore unless that's what the theme of the book is. They clearly were not smart enough to give Kurt that kind of a themed book in Marvel, he isn't a DC character, he's not even an Image character, so this is what they did. And it's been done.

[Edited on 24/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:10 am

Religious characters don't work in comics any more? That's as bad as saying African-American characters don't belong in comics, or gay characters don't belong in comics, unless the theme is race or sexual orientation. Rather hack writers who reduce well-rounded characters to one-note stereotypes don't belong in comics.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:07 am

That is not what i was saying at all. Please don't call me racist. Or imply that I mean something as bad as a racist statement similar to the one you pointed out.

What I'm in fact saying is, in my opinion, I don't find religious characters exciting in my comic books and I know I'm not the only fan who feels that way because they've stopped showing up as they did in the late 90's/early 2000's when their popularity was sorta high.

[Edited on 25/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:07 am

I'm not calling you racist or anything-ist. The comment, however, comes across as reflecting a prejudice against religion or some desire to segregate religion away from general comics. Religious characters are not boring any more than any other characters are- unless they are written badly by writers with only a shallow understanding of their characteristics. It really isn't any more difficult to write a character who happens to be religious than it is to write a character of a different culture.

Oh, and it was the third Nightcrawler solo series that handled those Kolchack-esque themes. Religion there was addressed a couple of times, but as helpful background notes. And no preaching.

[Edited on 25/8/2011 by Angelique]

Bamfing_Bob · Post by **Bamfing_Bob** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:26 am

He is the preist in his 4-issue Limited series.

And what alot of writers don't get is that most people have some sort of religious view and they are all impacted by it. Even regular church-goers are real people who don't talk about God constantly. We are multi-layered. So comic characters should be. By labeling someone "religious" or "spiritual", writers assume that is what always drives the character.

Daredevil is a good example of how Nightcrawler should be written. Religious, yes. But it is not what defines him. I thirst for justice makes Matt do what he does. For Kurt, replace justice with equality. He wants to help end the world's view that he is less than human.

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:22 am

Yeah...the four issue Icons series.

I'm mixed about this. As much as I love AoA Nightcrawler...he's NOT the REAL Nightcrawler. And I never cared for Fantomex...kind of puts me off. Now if AoA Kurt had gone to Wolverine and the X-Men like the teaser cover kind of indicated...

Might pick it up in trades but I doubt I'll go for the individual issues.

Post by **Freak** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:25 am

Wolverine and the X-Men will have a cast of 14 characters. I would be surprised if he wasn't in this book occasionally.

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:29 am

Still think I'll stick to the trades...they're cheaper and the store more easily...

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:10 pm

I don't think its a secret that I am not fond of overly religious characters and Kurt had become just that, at least to me.
I think Bamfing Bob is right on the money once again though in that had Kurt been handled like DAREDEVIL we might see a completely different set of circumstances. Although even Matt's faith is rarely played up as a plot point these days. Without dwelling ... the only Daredevil arc I can think of that even delve into god religion was Smith's run. Shadowland may have touched upon it but it was certainly not the plot topic and that's what I'm saying. For Kurt, every time he was around the topic was religion. it was a mesh of bad writing and poor character development that brought Kurt to that point. I applaud Marvel for taking steps to repair itself.

Jeremus · Post by **Jeremus** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:22 pm

I agree with Bob too.
Kurt used to not be defined only by his religion. He mentioned that he believed in god way back in Uncanny 165 (?) and he was completely "normal" until lately. That's how he should have been written.
I don't know why they can write Storm without resorting to having her become a preachy religious pagan fanatic (um....unless she actually is a preachy religious pagan fanatic now because I really haven't been keeping up with her lately.....lol)

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:28 pm

Sadly, Storm hasn't been written as much of anything lately.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:59 pm

When did Storm become a pagan? I'm pretty sure she's not a pagan.

Also -- Ange,

Have you been keeping up?

Storm has been pretty relevant lately. Not as involved as she was back in the Cockrum Days when she and Kurt and Sean and Logan and Peter made up the team but... she's definitely involved. She's leading the youngsters, helping out her husband in almost every issue of Black Panther: Man Without Fear or American Panther: Streets of Whatever (Not sure of the title or if that even IS the title).

I mean... she's far from in the background. Xavier, now he's in the background.

[Edited on 25/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:19 pm

Storm was pagan since the very beginning. As for how she's been written lately, all of that is several steps down from where I think she should be. (Of course, I think she should have thrown Cyclops out on his ear over a year ago.)

[Edited on 25/8/2011 by Angelique]

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:34 pm

Can you define Pagan then, 'cause I don't think she's a pagan.

And Freak, why was my post edited by you, twice?

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:34 am

Pagan in the broad, general sense. More specifically, she practices what can be identified as a made-up African tribe's brand of animism.

Indigo_Lady · Post by **Indigo_Lady** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:30 am

Ult_Sm86 - Apparently you never read the 12 issue third solo series. That dealt with paranormal and mystical issues, but Kurt was NOT a priest. And I don't know why you jumped all over me for a typo.

I agree totally with Angelique. Since House of M, some of the writers have resorted to religious stereotyping when it comes to Kurt's characterization. I am a Christian and I work in a secular setting with a number of people who are Christians yet the subject of religion only rarely comes up in our conversations. Kurt's been portrayed as religious for years, but before the whole priest thing emerged it was done pretty well. Lately, writers who are not religious or even anti-religious often choose to key in on the preachy rather than all the good traits like compassion and loyal friendship that Kurt possessed, even back when he was sporting a priest's collar. Seems a bit prejudicial to me. That, or a refusal to be at all sympathetic to the character.

I myself didn't care much for priest Kurt. I liked the swashbuckling lady's man that was grounded in his faith but not defined by it. That's called three-dimensional characterization.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:41 pm

Lady, you're half right.

I did read a Nightcrawler mini, but it was the Icons apparently (from 2001? It has the two towers and the ribbon behind it). The one written by Kipiniak? This is most definitely when he was a priest. As for the 12 part, that sounds great, I would definitely read it. Unfortunately, this is not the direction they kept. And that's Marvel's fault, and the writers fault. Instead they gave us Chuck Austen's nonsense.

I also don't really understand why Kurt is only capable of having these traits unless he's a practicing catholic. I think AoA Nightcrawler is going to find his new home and his new friends as a positive thing. This is a guy who is coming from a very awful alternate universe who is joining a super hero team in our Marvel universe.

Paganism as in a blanket term for polytheistic beliefs, right?

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:19 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Paganism as in a blanket term for polytheistic beliefs, right?

I had classes with a woman who felt that pretty much anything that wasn't Christianity was Pagan and therefore totally wrong and evil...couldn't convince her otherwise. I had a pack of tarot cards and she told me to burn them because they were evil. I guess she thought I was evil

I myself am accepting of all beliefs...or non-beliefs...as long as you're not hurting yourself or anyone else it's all cool

Now back to Kurt...

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:14 am

Cheers to that, Nan!

beer

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:02 am

You misunderstand. Nightcrawler's positive qualities were highlighted by his religion- when the matter was addressed well rather than beaten over the readers' heads. That's not saying he couldn't have been a good guy without being a Catholic. The truth is that religion, whatever it may be, can make good characters better, deeper, and to the majority of the world, more relatable and identifiable- when the matter is addressed well.