AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Angelique » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:49 am

Meh. I'm fairly intrigued by the idea of Darkholme sticking around 616 for a bit, but I wouldn't say I'm excited about it. In fact, if he's intended to be a permanent substitute for Kurt Wagner, I won't be happy about that in the least.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Crawler » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:43 am

I think many people probably feel the same way. However, I personally would be just fine with Darkholme being a permanent addition to 616, replacing "our" Kurt, so long as he's handled well. If he follows in Kurt's footsteps, I won't be happy at all. I would rather they bring back 616 Kurt and banish Darkholme back to comic book limbo than try to turn Darkholme into Kurt. They're quite different. I hope they stay that way.

In the meantime, I won't be worrying about whether Darkholme is permanent or not. Nothing is permanent in comics. Just gotta roll with it. :)
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by NachtcGleiskette » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:47 am

I hope after Darkholme they bring in Prof W's Kurt. All one eyed and bald. He can fight until his back gives out and then bitch at someone. But seriously, I love him.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Karl » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:35 pm

Do we know anything more than just the cover illo for that issue of UX-F?
So far, I've enjoyed UX-F enough to get all the back issues. While it would be unrealistic to expect a detailed analysis of moral issues in a comic book, some of the stories have at least touched on such things, rather than merely fighting and extreme violence.

I'm rather fond of AoA Kurt, so I'll be happy to see more of him, if that happens. However, what I'd like to see is how his character might develop in the 616 universe. I seriously doubt this will happen, but I'll certainly be reading this series in order to find out how they handle him.

BTW, I think the folks who have been discussing Nightcrawler's solo series have confused two entirely separate series. "The Winding Way" dealt with magical issues, while a much earlier series dealt with Kurt as a priest trying to help the victims of human trafficking. The latter is the one where he was shot early on.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Karl » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:43 pm

Oops! That last paragraph in my previous post should have been in the reply to a different thread. Please ignore it.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Bamfing_Bob » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:55 pm

Yeah I got all back issues of UXF (except 8. got cheaps connections?) as well, so it is clearly good enough to bring me out of a comic sabbatical. Great stuff.

And I truly believe Kurt's treatment in UXF will determine whether he we retain standing in mainstream 616. Alot is on the shoulders of Remender and his team. *fingers crossed*
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:40 am

Has anyone tried looking him up on the Marvel webpage yet? Kurt Darkholme that is?


It's strange, I did so for the first time just now and somehow I feel the results came up a bit quickly. Like his bio within the Marverlverse Wiki has been getting some work done. Call me crazy (or super tired being it's almost 5:00 AM), but that's just how I feel.


Also; for anyone look to to do some back reading on the AoA-Universe (as I intend to being I only have the 4-6 Astonishing X-issues) here you are:

Book 1 AoA

Book 2 AoA

Book 3 AoA

Book 4 AoA

AoA Prelude


[Edited on 6/9/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:57 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Has anyone tried looking him up on the Marvel webpage yet? Kurt Darkholme that is?


It's strange, I did so for the first time just now and somehow I feel the results came up a bit quickly. Like his bio within the Marverlverse Wiki has been getting some work done. Call me crazy (or super tired being it's almost 5:00 AM), but that's just how I feel.
According to the edit history of the page, it hasn't been touched since January of 2010

But then, it'd make sense if it was getting updated, since he's appearing in the books again. And I'm almost certain ANYONE can update the Marvel wiki's, you just need to register and be accepted. I think. I remember a while ago wanting to update the Nocturne page and registering, but then getting distracted and never going back. :hypno

[Edited on 6/9/11 by NachtcGleiskette]
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Bamfette » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:33 pm

I know the AoA version of Nightcrawler is cool and I like him but I still want Kurt Wagner back in the 616 world. That's why I started a petition to get him back. There is more than enough room in the MU for Darkholm and Wagner. Please help get Kurt Wagner back and sign the petition, it's quick and free.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Crawler » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:43 am

karatekitty> Welcome to Nightscrawlers!

I'd have possibly signed your petition before we knew that Darkholme was coming over. As it is, I would rather not have 616 Nightcrawler back for quite some time. We're getting our Nightcrawler fix through Darkholme, and would like to avoid any strange, contrived, and meaning-removing resurrection if at all possible. And I'd be against the uniqueness of the character being undercut by having two of them running around.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:37 am

I'm hoping Darkholme stays around for a good long time and don't want the "real" one coming back and screwing that up.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Dedicatedfollower467 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:48 pm

I'm sort of confused about this whole thing. I've never read AoA and only know what I've heard about Darkholme, nothing more. I'm dead certain he's not MY Kurt and can never replace him.

But that said, I have to admit I still haven't read a lot of Nightcrawler stuff - now that I'm into Batman and Nightwing and Robin I haven't had a lot of money to spend on the old Kurt. My love for the character has slowly waned because I still don't know him as well as I now know Dick Grayson.

So I guess I'm going to keep an open mind on this Darkholme thing. I know he won't be MY Kurt, but MY Kurt hasn't been in modern comics for a long, long time. If Darkholme brings in Nightcrawler fans who are interested in the old Kurt, that'll be a plus. If they just get interested in darker and edgier characters - well, I've been a DC fangirl for a couple years now anyways, so I can always stick with Nightwing.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:22 pm

I'm interested in darker and edgier Nightcrawler and always have been. My first solid impression of the character came from Giantsized X-Men 1, which I found in b&w paperback form at a garage sale for a nickel when I was a kid. Shrieking from the rooftops and finally leaping into the crowd to go down in a kicking and punching blaze of glory... that was the only characterization I had of him for years before getting access to other comics and the internet.

I'll admit that the character has rarely lived up to that first glimpse and my childhood imaginings. Maybe finally I'll get to see what I've been waiting for für immer now with Darkholme around.

[Edited on 10-9-2011 by The Drastic Spastic]
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Post by Angelique » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:11 am

You may be getting your Nightcrawler fix with Darkholme, but to me, he is Nightcrawler in look and code name only. Completely different character and in some instances even diametrically opposite. I feel like a kid whose parents try to pass off a lookalike with opposite personality as the dog they just ran over.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:53 am

Angelique wrote:You may be getting your Nightcrawler fix with Darkholme, but to me, he is Nightcrawler in look and code name only. Completely different character and in some instances even diametrically opposite. I feel like a kid whose parents try to pass off a lookalike with opposite personality as the dog they just ran over.
That's how I've felt about 616 Kurt for the last decade, ever since that first priest story.
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Post by Crawler » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:08 pm

Angelique wrote:You may be getting your Nightcrawler fix with Darkholme, but to me, he is Nightcrawler in look and code name only. Completely different character and in some instances even diametrically opposite. I feel like a kid whose parents try to pass off a lookalike with opposite personality as the dog they just ran over.
This is pretty much how I feel...about 616 Kurt. For almost the past 10 years, the mainstream Nightcrawler has been a "completely different character and in some instances even diametrically opposite" to the character that I knew and loved. He went from a swashbuckling, fun-loving leader to a mopey, preachy, beaten-down sort-of-but-not-really-because-it's-complicated priest. 616 Nightcrawler was "Nightcrawler in look and code name only."

Now, I'm not opposed to character evolution and change, so long as it makes sense and it's gradual. This was neither of those. It was sudden and forced...and then no one seemed to know how to handle it.

At least with Darkholme, we don't have to have some forced, contrived explanation to undo a decade of forced contrivance. Yes, he's a different character. But at least he's got an easy, simple, and clear reason for it. If they resurrected the Nightcrawler we've been getting for the last 10 years, I'd be passing on it.

With Darkholme, there's potential. With a resurrection, it'd be a disaster by necessity or it would strain credulity even more than a teleporting fuzzy blue demon already does.

[Edited on 9-11-2011 by Crawler]
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by littlebamf » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:43 pm

Agreed. Kurt hasn't been himself for the past goodness knows how long. The Kurt I love is the swashbuckler of Excalibur who would swoop around on panel with a sword in each hand and his tail. The type that would flirt with a pretty lady yet still be the gallant at the end of it, then still find time to go kick some major ass in the process.

Priest Kurt just...I think they just didnt know what to do with him afterwards as that was SUCH a huge change. It's not something a person would just drop and any way of doing so such seems weird, awkward and dropping it because it was a huge messup. So, I guess they kept him in the background while trying to work through the priest stuff and the Draco stuff and the rest of it...

I miss 616 Nightcrawler but he's been gone a hell of a lot longer than that issue of X-Force.

Welcome to 616 Kurt Darkholme, it'll be great to see what you do.

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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:49 pm

I have to agree with all this. 616 Nightcrawler hasn't been interesting in far too long. The priest debacle seemed to be a really shallow attempt at giving him a story, but it gave him a story no one wanted to tell. A big part of Kurt's character has always been that he looks like a demon, but he's the furthest from it. And making him a priest seemed to just up the ante on that but with no reason behind it. He just suddenly was a priest. Not to mention it really contradicted much of his previous characterization. And it was shallow in dealing with religion. Plenty of religious people don't become priests or preachers or rabbis etc.

Darkholme may be the way to actually have Kurt back. He's not 616 as we know him now, but he if he's 616 as we knew him when he was at his prime, then I am absolutely on board.
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Post by Angelique » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:47 pm

I don't think he can be and be true to his characterization in AoA, though. Kurt 616 even at his worst and angriest wouldn't take pleasure in teleporting off people's body parts.
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Post by Indigo_Lady » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:50 pm

I don't think so either. Our views of the world are strongly influenced by our experiences and our upbringing and AoA Kurt's are entirely different than 616 Kurt.

I find it very interesting how some have stated that they liked Excalibur Kurt but they haven't been able to accept Kurt since the whole priest thing. Interesting how you have completely forgotten that Claremont (who wrote most most of the early Excalibur issues) returned Kurt to his more fun loving self right after the abysmal Austen run. But what happened? The same people that wanted Kurt returned to his Excalibur glory did nothing but complain about CC when he took over Uncanny. That makes no sense to me. And it was editorial that ripped him from Claremont before some of his plot lines came to fruition, handing him over to writers who didn't know what to do with him.

That's not to mention the third solo series by Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa and Darick Robertson, which I enjoyed. It is an example of what Kurt could be if he was given to writer that actually liked the character - the 616 Kurt many of us loved and not some sad AU imitation.

It seems we are just talking in circles, but again I disagree wholeheartedly that the only way to revive the character is to make him dark and edgy. There are too many of that type of character in the X-books already.

Only time and sales will tell which view is shared by the greater majority of Nightcrawler fans.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:10 pm

Indigo_Lady wrote: I find it very interesting how some have stated that they liked Excalibur Kurt but they haven't been able to accept Kurt since the whole priest thing. Interesting how you have completely forgotten that Claremont (who wrote most most of the early Excalibur issues) returned Kurt to his more fun loving self right after the abysmal Austen run. But what happened? The same people that wanted Kurt returned to his Excalibur glory did nothing but complain about CC when he took over Uncanny. That makes no sense to me. And it was editorial that ripped him from Claremont before some of his plot lines came to fruition, handing him over to writers who didn't know what to do with him.
The issue with Claremont is that his work on Uncanny was abismal, and really it doesn't matter who he's writing or how he's writing them, no one is going to stick around a bad book for a character. Take it from the biggest damned Nocturne fan on the planet, who was willing to read ANYTHING as long as she was in it - even I had to cut and run right around Die by the Sword.

And editors "ripping Nightcrawler from him" isn't exactly the case. His book wasn't doing well, so they put him on another book. They can't send the heavy hitters with him to the fringe books, so they had to turn Kurt over to someone else.
Aguirre-Sacasa and Darick Robertson, which I enjoyed. It is an example of what Kurt could be if he was given to writer that actually liked the character - the 616 Kurt many of us loved and not some sad AU imitation.

It seems we are just talking in circles, but again I disagree wholeheartedly that the only way to revive the character is to make him dark and edgy. There are too many of that type of character in the X-books already.

Only time and sales will tell which view is shared by the greater majority of Nightcrawler fans.
I loved the 12 issue solo series, and I found that was a wayyyy better Kurt than what Claremont delivered in Uncanny. As I recall, Kurt's stories in CC's Uncanny weren't big, and the biggest thing I can remember him doing is kissing Rachel.

Anyway, I'll agree that turning every character dark and edgy isn't a good thing, but then Nightcrawler has needed an overhaul for a long time. And we don't really know what the introduction of AoA Kurt will be. Is it a replacement? Is it just for a few stories? Maybe he'll remain and 616 Kurt will still return? Regardless, we have the potential for some interesting stories as this new Kurt will be dealing with people who loved and cared for his 616 counterpart and are still mourning his death. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.
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Post by littlebamf » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:53 pm

Yeah Claremont's recent return to comics just had none of the jazz that his 80s glory days period had. A lot of it just didnt work and I'm not just talking about Kurt here. There were many moments during Uncanny and then certainly New Exiles (which I prefer to count as never existing) that I genuinely wished Psylocke had been allowed to remain dead.

CC did give Kurt some fun, but he wasn't at the same level as he had been in Excalibur. The whole kissing Rachel thing? I hated that moment. Something about it just felt really wrong to me, bearing in mind all the stuff from Excalibur.

Back on track, as for Kurt D. staying true to his AoA self? Well he will be in Uncanny X-Force which is possibly the best X-branded book out there right now. It is dark and edgy but there is also a nice dose of humour in there and as I've been saying several times now, the writer has a real gift for characterising the cast of the book. He's made Fantomex interesting, he's given Deadpool a proper personality over a charicature, he's pretty much salvaged Psylocke and he made me actually enjoy reading Wolverine again. I can't think of an X-writer right now who I trust more to handle this character.

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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:29 pm

I can't think of an X-writer right now who I trust more to handle this character.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Remender is the only way to go right now.

And I don't really remember Darkholme taking a lot of glee out of teleporting heads/limbs off people, but I will give him that it's an incredibly effective method of taking out a really-dangerous-enemy.

I mean... if they have to deal with Onslaught again, this could be over in, literally, minutes. His power sets are the same but his technique is completely different, making him a wonderful asset to the X-FORCE. We'll see if he softens up enough for just regular ole' X-Men.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:32 pm

Kind of a side thing, but what is with the tattoo on his eye? Did they ever explain what that was about? I don't recall reading it in the book, but it's been a while since I read any AoA (And to be fair, I only read X-Calibre and Gambit and the Externals).

Also, I'm glad he got a hair cut. No flowy hair on men, please. This isn't a Warrant video.
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Post by Crawler » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:16 am

The tattoos were never really explained, just like there was never any explanation for the riveted collars. It was just AoA fashion, I guess. If you remember, most characters had either black/blue or red tattoos, including Jean and Weapon X and many others.

It does go weird with the fuzziness thing, though. I mean, does he dye it? Does the hair come in red where the tattoo is because it's a super magic tattoo? Does he shave that area of his face? Did the AoA creators just not know how tattoos work? Not know the characters they were designing / writing?
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