AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Jeremus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:45 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:


Paganism as in a blanket term for polytheistic beliefs, right?
That's how I ment it.
Storm believes in a goddess and she has prayed to her at least once that I know of (in Classic Xmen #20) and the goddess answered her prayer.

(She also considered herself a goddess, but I'm not sure what to call 'belief in oneself as a god'.)

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:48 am

Nandireya wrote:And I never cared for Fantomex...kind of puts me off.
I wouldn't say I like Fantomex. I think he's a douche. But he's a key character in Uncanny X-Force and the book wouldn't be the same without him. I'd be sad if he left the team.
Angelique wrote:I have read Uncanny X-Force, and I found their "moral quandary" to be one very much of their own making. They got no sympathy from me. And that's just the problem- the utter lack of sympathetic characters in situations that made me root for them.
Mm. Superhero comics used to be very black and white. THIS is right. THIS is wrong. If you do the right thing, you are good, and everyone will be happy. Dull stuff for anyone who doesn't see the world in black and white. I've always been drawn to X-Men because there was a bit more complexity to it. Magneto vs Xavier has more to it than Batman vs Joker. (Batman = good. Joker = bad.)

I like Uncanny X-Force because I don't know who to root for and I don't know what's coming next. You really have no sympathy for the characters who decided to do the right thing in the end and then had the choice taken from them? Is it because in the end, the choice was the wrong one and they should have done something to stop it, being heros and all, but they didn't? The follow-up in later issues is also fantastic, with the different ways the characters try to deal with it. I find all of them sympathetic because in the context of their established personalities and situation, it's all believable without being predictable.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:54 am

Well said, Draz.

One of the best approaches to Hero versus Villain in Marvel Universe is the Magneto VS Xavier fight, being they started as such good friends with so many things in common except for that one, key, Jenga piece. WIthout that piece, their entire friendship, and any alliances they had between them, fall on two different sides of the line.


But the great thing about X-Force is it shows these few X-Men who aren't afraid to stay within the Xavier perspective while still crossing that line. Kurt Wagner was flat out against it, obviously.

Kurt Darkholme however... this will be a fun story to see in development.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Bamfing_Bob » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:30 am

Rick Remender tweeted

"Everyone seems so certain that the Nightcrawler on X-Force is from the AoA".

I can't tell if he is trolling to get us hyped up or if it may not be Darkholme... I think it is, but you never know. Either way, I've gotten all the Uncanny X-Force issues ordered (except for 8. Help?) and can't wait to put everything into context.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Angelique » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:45 am

Ult, I like a bit of moral complexity in comics, but to me, the questions X-Force were faced with weren't all that complex. That they dithered about the ethics of murdering a child is a strike against them as not just heroes, but even just decent human beings.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:48 am

That child would be Apocalypse though ... >_>

It's like when Harry Potter asked Dumbledore, (not a direct quote, excuse the lacking in accuracy:) "If you had known that the boy you just spoke to was going to be Voldermort... the wizard who murdered my parents,... would you have-"

"Harry, those questions are better not asked."


And Bob, Remender & Slott are notorious for that kind of thing. Fraction does it once in awhile too. They think they're HILARIOUS. LOL


[Edited on 28/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Crawler » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:13 am

Angelique wrote:Ult, I like a bit of moral complexity in comics, but to me, the questions X-Force were faced with weren't all that complex. That they dithered about the ethics of murdering a child is a strike against them as not just heroes, but even just decent human beings.
The child in question was an indoctrinated clone of Apocalypse. If that doesn't blur the line, I don't know what will.

Uncanny X-Force also is rife with nice, subtle characterization. It's the first time I've had even the smallest shred of interest in Psylocke EVER.

I, for one, am extremely excited to see my favorite blue swashbuckling atheist back in action. I prefer this by leaps and bounds over an actual resurrection or some other contrived way of bring 616 Kurt back. It doesn't hurt that Darkholme was always my favorite version of the character (followed closely by the version in the first 50 or so issues of Excalibur).

His being in the hands of Remender...well, that's what fills me with confidence in this move and will get me to actually read it.

Hopefully Darkholme is in Uncanny X-Force and only Uncanny X-Force for a good long while.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Rowena » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:54 pm

I've always been drawn to X-Men because there was a bit more complexity to it. Magneto vs Xavier has more to it than Batman vs Joker. (Batman = good. Joker = bad.)
Actually, I find the Joker/Batman relationship to be quite complex, particularly the moral question of 'who created whom' (sort of a parallel on gangsters in prohibition times, or even the current war on drugs debate). It's even similar to the Magneto/Xavier relationship in that both characters embody opposing worldviews. Batman needs order. The Joker believes wholeheartedly that life is a joke, and death is the punchline. Order is a mass delusion that can be disrupted far too easily. Joker embodies the sort of random chaos that characterizes plagues and storms, while Batman stubbornly shores up his belief in the social contract, making the devastation Joker causes seem merely transitory. It's neat.

There's actually a comic where the Joker thinks he finally killed Batman, and goes into one of his fugue states, thinking he no longer has a purpose. When he comes out, he's transformed himself into an average-Joe called Joseph Kerr who loves old comedy tapes and movies from the 30s/40s and even gets a normal, sane girlfriend. In the meantime, a wounded Bruce considers giving up the bat-ears and cloak. Only when Batman resurfaces does Joe Kerr's new persona start to crack (literally).

One of my favorite Batman/Joker exchanges took place in The Killing Joke. The Joker tells Batman about two nuts trying to escape an asylum. One tells the other he'll shine his flashlight across the rooftops so they can walk across its beam to safety. The other says, no way, you'll turn it off before I'm halfway across. To Batman, the light is his only way to freedom/salvation/whatever. To the Joker, it's intangible, an illusion. It was possibly the only time one of the Joker's jokes made Batman laugh.

But as fascinating and disturbing as I find the Joker, Nightcrawler's infinitely more awesome! :D

I was hesitant to jump into this pool, especially because I was so angry at the way Nightcrawler was treated and ultimately killed, but after reading through all the back-and-forth on this thread and the Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler? thread, I sort of wanted to say something.

I spent most of my childhood collecting and enjoying every single comic issue/crossover, and book that featured or even mentioned Nightcrawler (I also collect Joker, Smurfs, Doctor Who, Darkwing Duck, and Star Trek comics and books, so I'm not entirely one-dimensional. LOL) and I always felt that, in the comics, Nightcrawler’s religion, while an important part of his moral outlook and his personal views on death, was mainly harped upon because of his “demonicâ€Â
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:35 pm

Rowena wins.:) Wonderfully stated and probably my favorite analysis of Kurt I've ever read.

[Edited on 8-28-2011 by Crash Tofu]
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Post by Angelique » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:59 pm

The idea that Kurt would have been raised either by Margali or by the extended circus "family" as anything other than Catholic doesn't make much sense, though, given that what little is known about the Roma indicates that they not only adopt as their own but integrate into their daily lives the religion of their surrounding areas. The fortune-telling and such is just for the tourists.

[Edited on 28/8/2011 by Angelique]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:32 am

I think that's just plain reaching, but I guess that sort of thing might be up for interpretation?

And why do people keep editing my posts? No one quoted me, so what's going on?

[Edited on 29/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Indigo_Lady » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:38 am

Thank you Rowena, that was very well stated :clap I don't think I have ever seen 616 Nightcrawler's character summarized with such depth of understanding.

With great sadness I have watched most of the writers of the last decade waste a gem of a character, tarnishing him to a point they felt they had to discard him rather than polishing him back to his earlier brilliance. It's just sad that kid's cartoon writers seemed to know what to do with Kurt far better than the recent comic book writers.

If I had any confidence that AoA Kurt would be handled in an intelligent manner, I wouldn't have as big a problem with his incorporation. Unfortunately, I consider the writing in the X-books to have deteriorated in the last five or six years to shock and cliche'. I simply don't believe the writers give their story lines that much forethought. And even if they do, with Marvel's constant editorial interference and habit of uprooting writers before their stories have reached fruition, it's doubtful we'll see him written with much respect at all.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Crawler » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:02 am

Indigo_Lady wrote: If I had any confidence that AoA Kurt would be handled in an intelligent manner, I wouldn't have as big a problem with his incorporation. Unfortunately, I consider the writing in the X-books to have deteriorated in the last five or six years to shock and cliche'.
In my opinion, Remender is doing wonderful storytelling and characterization in Uncanny X-Force, which is apparently where Darkholme will be appearing. The characters are nuanced and complex and Remender toes some lines very deftfully. For example, you have two snobby characters in Warren and Fantomex, but they're clearly snobby in different ways, for different reasons. Warren is guarded and a bit self-righteous, wanting to protect himself from being hurt and falls back on his "rich boy" ways a bit, while Fantomex is putting on airs, being snobbish because he refuses to accept anything less.

Likewise, Fantomex and Deadpool both crack wise, but Fantomex does it with snobbish disdain, making curring wisecracks, while Deadpool makes jokes out of a seemingly desperate need to be unique, "have his own thing," and a need to be the center of attention.

This is also the first time in the history of the character that I have cared in the least about Psylocke. She's sultry (not slutty), and vulnerable (actually, they're all vulnerable in some way) and important to the team dynamic.

With my favorite version of Nightcrawler in Remender's hands, I'm very excited to see what happens and, more importantly, how.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Wahnsinn » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:29 am

More praise upon Rowena! :clap

Touching on something from the other thread, German Christians of all denominations are generally more subtle than their American counterparts. (I haven't lived in any other countries, so I can't comment on other places.) Even the Jehovah's Witnesses aren't remotely pushy, and it seems they won't return if you tell them you're not interested. The panhandlers are pushier without saying a word, with their adorable dogs and accordions. ;)

That's part of what made Kurt's religious progression not ring true for him, whereas it might have worked with some other character. Maybe a few on the creative staff got a wee bit confuzzled with the monk version in XM:TAS. IIRC, that's the first time Kurt was shown as extremely religious and rather preachy.

I also agree that it seems a stretch that he'd be raised Catholic by Margali, a practicing sorceress of the Winding Way even when he was a child. The fact that he held no resentment towards a religion that would easily fuel a negative perception of him is rather remarkable and says a lot about his capacity for understanding and forgiveness.

Aaanyhoo, I think the last time 616 Kurt was shown as the fuzzy elf we all love was in that Danger Room panel where he kisses Rachel while in full pirate regalia. (May he be touched by His Noodly Appendage!) The art for that short sequence was pure Kurt. Alas, there was hardly any more of that swashbucklery goodness after that.

I always liked AoA Kurt, so I'll be pleased as long as he's written well and not shuttled off to the background. Remender's doing well with writing an ensemble cast and does a good job handling darker characters with depth, so there's hope. There's potential. While there's enough reason to be, let's try not to be too cynical. If you walk in wanting to dislike something, you won't be giving it a fair chance, right?

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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:59 pm

I wasn't such a fan of Uncanny X-Force in the beginning mostly because I didn't like the set-up of the team. I never really had any problems specifically with Remender, but now that I look at it, I've never read a Rick Remender comic I didn't like (with the exception of te 1st 3 issues of UXF -- again, not his fault.) Also, I loved AoA Kurt during the whole Apocalypse snaffoo in the '90s. One of my favorite versions of Nightcrawler as well.

The way I see it, there's nothing but a fair chance for this comic.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:57 pm

Angelique wrote:The idea that Kurt would have been raised either by Margali or by the extended circus "family" as anything other than Catholic doesn't make much sense, though, given that what little is known about the Roma indicates that they not only adopt as their own but integrate into their daily lives the religion of their surrounding areas. The fortune-telling and such is just for the tourists.

[Edited on 28/8/2011 by Angelique]
Can you provide citation of this?

But as it pertains to Kurt, it was never made clear that he was raised AS a Catholic, only that he IS a Catholic.

If it ain't canon, then it's speculation ;).
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Post by littlebamf » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:08 pm

Well so far I've been loving Uncanny X-Force. It had a real blip during the whole Deathlok arc. That whole thing was just a page closer to me. Blegh. But, on the whole it has been a pretty solid book with some great characterisations, the sort of isolated nature of it meaning that the creative team can make the characters count, rather than having to rotate them around for attention, or keep a core couple in the foreground (like Emma and Kitty over in another certain book) then leave everyone else as window dressing.

I'm pretty stoked to see AoA Nightcrawler, I think he'll add an interesting dynamic, even if it is a kind of cheap way of bringing him back. But I'm waiting to see how its handled, and seeing as I've liked the book so far, I think its worth it.

If not, I'm just excited about the fact they'll eventually be going to Otherworld for a Betsy-centric plot with Jamie and Brian Braddock etc (now THAT made me about pee myself).

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Darkholme » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:44 pm

I have really enjoyed Uncanny X-Force so far. While Kyle & Yost showed a similar love and appreciation for 80s and 90s X-minutiae, Remender has been able to bring a depth to these characters that honestly hasn't been present for quite some time (especially Deadpool - it's the second coming of the Joe Kelly version). Is it going to be everyone's cup of tea? No. But I look forward to seeing where he takes the book, especially given how the Dark Angel Saga has gone so far.

And c'mon - who didn't want AoA Darkholme to hitch a ride back when Marvel teased that Mark Brooks preview art of the AoA/UXF fight back in the spring?

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Post by Crawler » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:06 pm

Darkholme wrote: And c'mon - who didn't want AoA Darkholme to hitch a ride back when Marvel teased that Mark Brooks preview art of the AoA/UXF fight back in the spring?
DUDE. When I saw the previews for that crossover, without having read an X-Book in FIVE YEARS, I immediately thought "It would be AWESOME for AoA Nightcrawler to hitch a ride back to the main U."

Then I saw that it was happening and I was all :D!

Then I read Uncanny X-Force, realized that Remender has that light, nice, touch with subtle but deep characterization and, suddenly, I was geeking out over a Marvel book for the first time since Winick left eXiles.

It's a great time to be a Nightcrawler fan.

On a personal and Nightscrawlers note, this entire place owes its existence to AoA Nightcrawler. You see, before AoA Nightcrawler caught my attention I was one of those dirty, filthy Wolverine fans. But then I fell in love with Nightcrawler in AoA, decided to go hunting for other Nightcrawler fans online, found the Wizard World thread, created a Nightcrawler message board, and eventually created this place.

So this is all the fault of Warren Ellis and Apocalypse.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:05 pm

I have to say, AoAKurt is a nice chance to be original with a reboot of a character. I'm literally in the comic store for the last 3 days trying to gather the Age of Apocalypse stuff I don't have (from the original run and other what-ifs thereafter) before the AWESOME BLOW-OUT END-OF-SUMMER-SALE that "Time Capsule" (my comic store) has every year.

Lemme tell ya, with AoAKurt announce in UXF? Those books are gonna disappear in a snap. :aoa:aoa
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:08 pm

Crawler wrote:
On a personal and Nightscrawlers note, this entire place owes its existence to AoA Nightcrawler. You see, before AoA Nightcrawler caught my attention I was one of those dirty, filthy Wolverine fans. But then I fell in love with Nightcrawler in AoA, decided to go hunting for other Nightcrawler fans online, found the Wizard World thread, created a Nightcrawler message board, and eventually created this place.
Oh GROSS. Wolverine fan? I feel so violated. I trusted you.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:12 pm

I love Wolverine when he's well written.


And for me, the only time he's well written is when he's talking to Kurt.

So having a new Kurt around for him to adjust to? New fresh dialogue?


I tweeted this yesterday so I'll just quote myself here:


#WolverineFanByProxy
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Crawler » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:56 pm

So far, in Uncanny X-Force, this version of Kurt has been brash and charming and funny and still a bit ruthless. I think he'll fit right in with the team, but I also trust Remender to keep him unique in a team full of funny ruthless characters.

Beyond that, the reason I feel that this is the *right way* to "bring him back" is that this is not the same person that an entire world of characters knew and loved. This is just a guy who looks a whole lot like him. That's good, because then the creators won't feel as though he needs to "make the rounds." visiting with everyone in the other books. It means that, at least temporarily, there will be a single, consistent characterization of this "new" character that will hopefully establish him for years to come.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Angelique » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:31 pm

NachtcGleiskette wrote:
Angelique wrote:The idea that Kurt would have been raised either by Margali or by the extended circus "family" as anything other than Catholic doesn't make much sense, though, given that what little is known about the Roma indicates that they not only adopt as their own but integrate into their daily lives the religion of their surrounding areas. The fortune-telling and such is just for the tourists.

[Edited on 28/8/2011 by Angelique]
Can you provide citation of this?

But as it pertains to Kurt, it was never made clear that he was raised AS a Catholic, only that he IS a Catholic.

If it ain't canon, then it's speculation ;).
I googled Romani religion. Do you really want me to post all the links I found that support that?
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Bamfette » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:40 pm

I fail to see how this deebate on his religion is relevant to the topic at hand. We know 616 Nightcrawler was a Catholic, it's canon. We know AoA Nightcrawler, the one we are now getting, is not, which is also canon. There isn't really much more to discuss, canon is canon.

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