AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Mistress_D » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:03 pm

Thanks, I'm hoping to find a copy, but if I have to go on-line, that's fine. I'm just glad to hear it's a good one and I can get a taste of their interpretation of Darkholme before December. I'm thinking of just buying a subscription for X-Mas, because we don't have the best stores here and shipping and handling can make buying copies on-line expensive. Even if it's not the same version, I'm excited to see Nightcrawler again and can't wait to get back in the comics.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Bamfing_Bob » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:43 pm

You mentioning subscriptions got me searching, and it turns out you get UXF half off just by subscribing! So I got one, and the first one I get is UXF 19! OMG!!!
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Mistress_D » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:24 pm

Awesome! I'm next! And I finally got #17! Thanks for the heads up, I loved seeing AOA Nightcrawler again, he really stole the spotlight for me.

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It's out!!

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:13 pm

Image


So I got 19.1, and I gotta say... I loved it.

I was on the fence at first (in a couple of panels, Darkholme looks a bit like a horse to be honest), and after the first 3 issues of the UXF series had turned out to be something I didn't really enjoy, I figured this was gonna be terrible.


I was wrong. Even though I was completely lost at first, Remender still held my hand and guided me through this very important "in-between" issue, the transition of story arcs and introduction of new characters and most importantly, our re-introduction into AoA Nightcrawler.

I may have said it elsewhere in the forums but

it's safe to say that Darkholme rejecting Pryde right off the bat is going to lead to some great character development later. I also enjoyed Beast being kept aware of the team's going-ons.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Elwing » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:18 pm

It's out! And it's pretty good. Recommended. First one I read, and it seems like a good starting point. Plenty of future opportunities for interaction between the UXF and W&the X-men books. Looks very promising.
AOA Nighty is going to stick around for sure :bounce
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Lenaris » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:22 pm

Agree, I recommend Uncanny X-Force. AoA Nightcrawler was given characterization panels in both 19 and 20.

Not sure how to insert a spoiler tag to elaborate, so let me try with something fairly meaningless first to see if it works.

[spoiler] There was an artistic error in the Danger Room scene in book 20. [/spoiler]

[Edited on 22/1/12 by Lenaris]

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Lenaris » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:35 pm

Yeah ok, that worked not at all. If someone could tell me how to insert spoiler tags, I'll go into more detail on the current characterization of AoA Nightcrawler.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by steyn » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:33 pm

Sorry dude, no spoiler tags at the moment, but they will be there when the new forum launches shortly.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:34 pm

steyn wrote:Sorry dude, no spoiler tags at the moment, but they will be there when the new forum launches shortly.
This is Lenaris--found my old sign on from before.

I guess I'll hold my peace then, if there are no spoiler tags:). I don't want to be ranted at.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Elwing » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:49 pm

Ah, I hope I can get my hand on #20 shortly- it sounds like fun.:)
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Slarti » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:10 pm

Welcome back Lenaris/Sundown!

We're finally going to the book store today to pick up our last couple of months worth of books, lol, so I'm looking forward to catching up on AoA Kurt!

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:33 pm

Thanks for the welcome back. :) I dropped all titles back when the killed off 616 Kurt, but decided to at least take a look with what they do with the AoA version. It will never make up for the 616 one though. -_-

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Elwing » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:36 pm

yes, same here. In fact I stopped buying years before that. But with x-force, and also Wolverine & the X-men, I'm back in the game and really enjoying it so far.
AOA Kurt offers great possibilities because the character can be developed freely and does not have all the baggage 616 Kurt had. It will be interesting to see what they come up with in the long run.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:06 pm

Elwing wrote:yes, same here. In fact I stopped buying years before that. But with x-force, and also Wolverine & the X-men, I'm back in the game and really enjoying it so far.
AOA Kurt offers great possibilities because the character can be developed freely and does not have all the baggage 616 Kurt had. It will be interesting to see what they come up with in the long run.
I was down to just Nightcrawler appearances by the time they killed him off, but yes, now I've picked up the same titles you have.

I agree AoA Kurt offers some great potential, and so far is showing up with a bang, rather than the sad whimper 616 had been reduced to for so many years. The thing I take issue with is that part of what made the original Nightcrawler so appealing for so many -- the specifics are arguable, but essentially the fact that he was the spirit of the X-men -- has been lost, and it would be a hard sell to recapture it with AoA Kurt. The character would have to be completely changed, and I'd hate to see that happen.

I still hold out hope that 616 Kurt will be returned in some non-cliched way and picked up by writers who know how to use existing material rather than simply revamp for shock value.

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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Elwing » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:18 pm

I can't wait to see what the writers are going to do. I could see a scenario in which the AOA character develops gradually from what he is now to a personality a little closer to the classic character. A different character with his own characteristics, but essentially a decent person, and not as predictable or goody-two-shoes as the old Kurt. Far less baggage, and therefore more interesting to a comics writer.
And I'm perfectly open to that, if it's written well. We'll have to wait and see.
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AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:51 pm

Yes, I look forward to it as well. They would REALLY have to do some good story telling though, to shift the current representation of AoA to anything remotely resembling the 616 version. :aoa UXF 20 illustrates that pretty well.

I suppose I'm greedy -- I want both. ^^ And most especially, how they'd react to one another.

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Post by Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:29 pm

Just found this for anyone wanting the AoA Nightcrawler bio.

Reference: The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - X-Men - Age of Apocalypse, published 2005.

Can't attach the page, so I'll just type it I guess. Apologies for any typos.

HISTORY: Kurt Darkholme lived a lonely childhood in the German countryside. Never allowed to interact with human children, he didn't know his demon-like appearance might be jarring to others. With his mother Mystique often gone on secret missions for Magneto, Kurt was often left to fend for himself. It was not until Apocalypse appeared that the townspeople rose up against him. A group of villagers stormed the house and knocked Kurt out before he could teleport. He was to be sacrificed in a bizarre religious ritual to send all mutant demons back to Hell until Mystique, Magneto and Quicksilver stormed the church. Mystique gunned down the humans who had kidnapped her son before Magneto could stop her. Kurt was unable to deal with the sight of his mother's ferocity and teleported away. Upon his return, Quicksilver informed him that his mother had asked Magneto to look after him while she was away. Kurt spent the next few years proving himself on the team. Ironically, after seeing the world and the terror it had become under Apocalypse, Nightcrawler became one of Magneto's most deadly agents.

----The rest is just a recap of what happened in X-Calibre and the usual character stats and status. (No known alias, German citizen, single, Mystique as mother, Abyss as half brother, no listed father, high school education equivalent, etc).

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Indigo_Lady » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:54 pm

I agree, the personalities of Darkholme and the original Nightcrawler are so different there is no reasonable way AoA Kurt could come even close. They are nearly diametrically opposed in many aspects. If this this was to have been the original character instead of the 616 Kurt, I would never have been interested in him. I cared about the character of Kurt Wagner, not necessarily his appearance or powers. What makes AoA Kurt any different than the "evil" he is supposedly battling? Kurt had developed as his creator's alter ego. I'm glad Dave didn't live to see what the writers have done to him.

Please don't patronize me by saying that I am only making generalizations because a friend scanned the past issue and sent them to me. I found the whole book distasteful and couldn't read it all. The only thing that would make this Kurt anything close would be for 616 Nightcrawler to take over his body, which I personally still hope some writer will do eventually. This current characterization is like rubbing salt in the wound already dealt by his death, at least for most Nightcrawler fans.

The only book that interests me at all is Wolverine and the X-Men. 616 Kurt would have done well in that book, but I'm not interested in seeing AoA Kurt there. I am losing interest in the whole Marvel Universe considering some of the recent decisions that have been made. I don't think I'm the only Nightcrawler fan that feels that way. However, most of the fans of 616 Nightcrawler at this and other forums I frequent have pretty much stopped posting.

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:00 pm

You're putting too much emphasis on Kurt being a replacement, I think.

Yes, they're like night and day. But that's what gives the story some growth. Now, everytime Kitty sees Darkholme, it's just another pang in her heart as she's reminded that there really is no way to bring her dear friend back. He's the antithesis of everything Wagner is, and though Logan might not grow to love him as a friend the way he did with Wagner, Darkholme is exactly what Logan needs right now. And maybe Logan is what Darkholme needs.

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Sundown » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:35 pm

Indigo_Lady wrote: Please don't patronize me by saying that I am only making generalizations because a friend scanned the past issue and sent them to me. I found the whole book distasteful and couldn't read it all. The only thing that would make this Kurt anything close would be for 616 Nightcrawler to take over his body, which I personally still hope some writer will do eventually. This current characterization is like rubbing salt in the wound already dealt by his death, at least for most Nightcrawler fans.

The only book that interests me at all is Wolverine and the X-Men. 616 Kurt would have done well in that book, but I'm not interested in seeing AoA Kurt there. I am losing interest in the whole Marvel Universe considering some of the recent decisions that have been made. I don't think I'm the only Nightcrawler fan that feels that way. However, most of the fans of 616 Nightcrawler at this and other forums I frequent have pretty much stopped posting.
While I am currently enjoying Remender's depiction of Darkholme (of all the alternate reality 'Crawler's, this one was the only one with a somewhat fleshed out personality), I do agree he will never be a replacement for Wagner, nor should writers try and change him to make him that way. And yes, if I had to choose between the two, Wagner would win hands down.

However, what I am hoping will happen is that Darkholme's presence will renew interest in the character of Nightcrawler -- as you say, most die-hard fans have stopped bothering to post, or even read the X-books; I know that was the case with me as well until Uncanny X-Force.
As I said on the Marvel board, in my opinion, Darkholme doesn't have the staying power of Wagner. There is a reason Wagner was around for 35 years. Darkholme is a novelty for the moment. Remender's portrayal of him at the moment is very much limited to examples on how Darkholme is not Wagner. What the character is, is dark, nasty and basically a male Mystique with some flair and a huge ego so far. In other words, he fits right in with the theme of Uncanny X-Force without those pesky morals.

As far as Wagner taking over Darkholme's body -- do you really think he would ethically do such a thing or be ok with it if it happened? Personally, I'm all for writers exploring the dark, mystical is-he-a-half-demon-or-not viewpoint to bring Wagner back.

Aside from Darkholme fitting into the dark theme of UXF, I think the real reason they pulled him in rather than doing a resurrection is that the changing writers/creative teams have utterly murdered 616 Nightcrawler's backstory and personality over the years, and without dedicated effort (like that put in by Aguirre Sacasa and Robertson on the solo series), the character became a corner panel filler priest (never ordained of course, or was he? :rolleyes

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:53 pm

I sincerely feel, after the last UXF issue, that you are totally correct in saying Remender's current trick-up-his-sleeve is to press the point that Darkhome is in no way Wagner.

You're right, that's Remender's goal right now. But that doesn't mean it's the ONLY trick up his sleeve. I think over time Remender (and the X-Crew's goal) is to have the team settle in with Darkholme just as Darkholme will settle in with them. Logan may be a bit of a hard ass but he's rarely wrong. He does recognize what brought Darkholme through to their universe. He understands if, maybe empathizes with him, but Darkholme refuses to admit anything Logan says. For now.

I'd be very interested in seeing that change. Also... I'd be very interested in seeing the interactions of Brian, Widget, Meggan, and others with Darkholme. The expectations will be high but I would be interested in seeing the resentment thrown back in Darkholme's face for being a bitter, dark, alternate for their beloved, dead, friend. To me? That's creative writing. Not great writing. But creative. And a fantastic window to GREAT writing.

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Sundown » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:15 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I sincerely feel, after the last UXF issue, that you are totally correct in saying Remender's current trick-up-his-sleeve is to press the point that Darkhome is in no way Wagner.

You're right, that's Remender's goal right now. But that doesn't mean it's the ONLY trick up his sleeve.
Actually, if it sounded like I was disparaging Remender's writing, I was not -- far from it. I enjoy his writing very much. Right now, making the points of difference his focus is what needs to happen. It would be far too easy for readers and for that matter, future writers to fall into the habit of lumping Darkholme into the same mould as Wagner. Currently Darkholme is really only getting a handful of panels per book, so all are basically being used to say, "this ain't the Nightcrawler you're used to people". Maybe -- and I hope for this in the series -- some near future story arc will focus on Darkholme to help establish him more.
Ult_Sm86 wrote: I think over time Remender (and the X-Crew's goal) is to have the team settle in with Darkholme just as Darkholme will settle in with them. Logan may be a bit of a hard ass but he's rarely wrong. He does recognize what brought Darkholme through to their universe. He understands if, maybe empathizes with him, but Darkholme refuses to admit anything Logan says. For now.
Quite possibly. If Marvel refuses flat out to bring back Wagner, then Darkholme is better than nothing. I am enjoying Wolverine's interaction with him, and I hope to see more of Kitty and maybe Rachel's take on Darkholme. I too look forward to seeing Brian and Meggan's reaction to him.

As far as Logan being right -- I can't really make up my mind how much I want him to be right. I don't want to see writers try to turn Darkholme into Wagner. (I want the real Wagner back, thank you very much. :mad )
Maybe right on some things; that Darkholme is not completely indifferent to things that don't revolve around his own well-being or the like. But some things should just stay different. I mean one of the key traits of Wagner was the need to be liked, in whatever capacity. Starting from the performer personality, it carried through to the charming swashbuckler, the prankster, the flirt, everyone's friend and even as people's priestly confidant. Darkholme just was not brought up that way. He was brought up isolated, with Mystique's passing companionship. He just doesn't care if people like him or not, and that is a fundamental part of his personality.
Ult_Sm86 wrote: The expectations will be high but I would be interested in seeing the resentment thrown back in Darkholme's face for being a bitter, dark, alternate for their beloved, dead, friend. To me? That's creative writing. Not great writing. But creative. And a fantastic window to GREAT writing.
Agree.

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:13 pm

I think there's a chance Logan relates to this Nightcrawler easier. His casual flick of the sword, not seconds thought on a "necessary kill". Logan knows he's the best at what he does and he recognizes Darkholme isn't too awful at it either.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Logan becomes uncomfortable with this new friend, finding it unsettling how easy he and Darkholme can share the same violent streak. It used to be just Wolverine, and one of Wagner's last words to him were out of disgust for dragging other xmen into a hit squad team. Friends in blood is against Wagner's ways but certainly not Darkholme. How long before that realization kicks in and starts to upset Logan? It could be like losing his Kurt all over agqin, once he accepts it.

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Sundown » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:59 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I think there's a chance Logan relates to this Nightcrawler easier. His casual flick of the sword, not seconds thought on a "necessary kill". Logan knows he's the best at what he does and he recognizes Darkholme isn't too awful at it either.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Logan becomes uncomfortable with this new friend, finding it unsettling how easy he and Darkholme can share the same violent streak. It used to be just Wolverine, and one of Wagner's last words to him were out of disgust for dragging other xmen into a hit squad team. Friends in blood is against Wagner's ways but certainly not Darkholme. How long before that realization kicks in and starts to upset Logan? It could be like losing his Kurt all over agqin, once he accepts it.
Yeah I would tend to agree. I think Darkholme (as he seems at the moment) has even less compunction about killing than Logan -- at least Wolverine appears to give it some thought afterwards on occasion, or finds it distasteful at times.

What I'd be interested in seeing is the "whys" to the character and what makes him tick other than violence and control. That would make him less likely to end up feeling two-dimensional. Right now we have the assumption that the fact that he was a)raised in a war torn world and b)was raised by Mystique are what has made him into what amounts to the antithesis of Wagner...a ruthless assassin with few redeeming personality traits...even his humour is nasty. We know he's fought with Magneto's group since he was a teen (?) and other than that, was completely isolated from (apparently) everyone but his mother and maybe step-father, Sabretooth (I'm guessing step-father because for Wagner and Darkholme to basically be the same person genetically, they'd have to both have the same parents, or their world's version of them.) In the AoA mini-series, way back when, he seemed a bit of a "Mama's boy" -- the portrayal almost had the feel of an indulged only child.

Anyway, if writers intend to keep Darkholme around, I'd want to see him fleshed out more, not just another token Billy Badarse making snarky quips on the X team.

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Post by Dedicatedfollower467 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:06 pm

So, I've been thinking a long time about this; I've read issue #19 and #20 of UXF... and...

I just don't LIKE the dirty little b*stard.

He grates on my nerves. I tend to dislike characters like him in any case, but the fact that he looks like Kurt and seems to be a sort of anti-replacement for him REALLY drives me nuts. His attitude, his apparent cruelty, his cockiness, his overbearing pride... all of these are traits that I dislike in any character. The fact that this is NIGHTCRAWLER who is saying these things makes me hate him even more. He doesn't even make up for everything else by being genuinely funny (like Deadpool). He's just plain mean and nasty.

If this is how they're thinking of appeasing Nightcrawler fans, they got another think or two coming.

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