morals in children's literature

DC, Marvel, Image, BOOM!, Dynamite and more! Discuss everything comics and related to comics. If it's comics and Nightcrawler isn't in it, this is the place!
Post Reply
Bamfette
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 3278
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Calgary
Contact:

morals in children's literature

Post by Bamfette »

I've been on a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory kick the last couple days (shame my squirrel avatar doesn't work anymore... i think LiveJournal blocked us :oops: will just have to re upload it for real) i downloaded both movies so i could see how which was actually closer to the book (Burton. neither one is totally the same, but Burton's is the closest, though the ending was altered dramatically, i thought it gave a nice touch, and helped explain Wonka's bizarre behaviour. and the original movie had more dramatic changes, like the addition of Slugworth, and the floaty room, to infuse more overt morals. i thought Burton's method of doing the same thing was less obtrusive and served to flesh out not just Charlie, but Wonka as well.)) I don't particularly care how close to the book a movie is usually, I fully realize that things must be changed in the name of different mediums and the fact that few people will sit through a movie over a certain length. but i was curious.

and i stumbled across this article:

http://www.roalddahlfans.com/articles/char.php

in particular this snippett that leaped out at me:
Cameron brings up White's Charlotte's Web as an example of "one of the [best] books ever written for children" and goes on to talk about how "Wilbur, the runt pig... never ceases throughout the progress of the story to be anything but naive and ingenuous.... He is always the innocent who is acted upon in order that he shall be saved, rather than the hero who acts independently and with assurance to save himself" (Cameron, 12/72). So E.B. White can get away with a lack of character development for his main character, but Dahl is held to a different standard.
nevermind the lack of character development, this is a POSITIVE thing? to be a sheep, a follower? to be ignorant? geez... what on earth would this woman say about Harry Potter? how, precicely is acting independently to save yourself or others a bad thing? the mind boggles.

and now i am thinking about something else. I see this all the time, people protesting violence or immorality or whatever in children's books, even if these acts serve to teach a lesson. I've never quite understood it. possibly because of my upbringing... my parents were strict in some ways, but in others they were very lenient. In particular, our entertainment. My sister and I were taught to read by our mother before we started school because at that time, schools were not teaching via phonics, and she didn't trust it. so she got us up to speed very early so we'd be in the habit of using phonics. so i was reading at a high school level when i was in elementary school. as a result, I read things others were not. one time I read the Neverending Story, and had it taken away by a teacher for being too advanced, too mature for one as young as me. it has dark themes, violence, death. I STILL remember it, even though i haven't read it sicne then, i LOVED it. I can't imagine what could possibly be wrong with letting a child read it. I read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the Glass Elevator around that time too, but they were permitted to me....

anyway. that was a big long rambling something... back on topic. i really don't think many parents are giving kids enough credit, or are letting them read these things without discussing it with them. if someone dies or there is scary stuff... well, i think it teaches lessons. people die. bad things happen. life isn't a fantasy world where everything is perfect all the time. and if this is infused with the hero making moral choices, all the better. I don't see the issue... the Grimm's Fairy Tales are rife with cruelty and violence, and they never harmed kids. I don't believe in exposing them to really really dark, grim, bloody stuff, or overtly adult themes. violence for violence's sake. it should be to teach a life lesson of some sort and not too graphic. but i see people saying that, for instance, the last couple HP novels are not appropriate for the original target audience of 12 year olds. I don't think so. they teach great life lessons, and they aren't very graphic. characters die, yes. there are scary scenes, yes. but it's all towards the purpose of teaching selflessness, bravery, importance of friends, fair play, how to deal with grief, etc. on the other hand, i was reading Stephen King (with my mothers permission) when i was 12, so...
Crocodile Hunter
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:39 pm
Title: is not a moderator.
Location: (F)Winland

morals in children's literature

Post by Crocodile Hunter »

im confused :shifty
fourpawsonthefloor
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3958
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Title: Executive Administrator

morals in children's literature

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I was allowed to read pretty advanced stuff at a young age (I balked at watership down when I was 12 though - it was just too dark). I read Cujo at 13 (that freaked the begeezes out of me - maybe that wasn't a good idea) and Clan of the Cave bear at 12 or 13 (though I don't think my parents realized the rape scene was in there). I think that it allowed me to have a very mature outlook on the world a lot younger. On the other hand I read A LOT and didn't socialize (yes I was a super geek) so I had to really learn a lot of pratical people skills when I got into later teen hood.
I think that letting a child read advanced stuff (within reason) is fine, if it works for them. I would have been bored to friggin tears reading what my peers were reading, so I am happy that I could get my fingers on the more adult stuff. Quite frankly most kids are exposed to way more graphic sex and violence on TV then they could ever hope to be exposed to in book nowadays, barring the adult romances with their "throbbing manhoods".
Paws
Image
I'm actually quite pleasant until I'm awake.
Garble
Lookout
Lookout
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 11:15 pm
Title: Weirdsmith
Location: The bottom of your mind
Contact:

morals in children's literature

Post by Garble »

I didn't read the lady's article, but it could be that she's not so much denouncing self-reliance as a bad thing as saying that a totally helpless character in need of protection doesn't need as much character development to be enduring. Since Wilbur doesn't actually do anything, he doesn't run the risk of doing something that will alienate him from the reader.

And I actually have heard people complain about Harry always breaking rules and getting away with it. Though I personally think Rowling is saying something about following one's own convictions being more important that following rules. Even so, Harry often has to face different levels of consequences for his choices.

As to Bamfette's overall point, yeah I think people go to strange lengths to "protect" children from things. Adults tend to forget what life was like when they were kids. They forget how much kids can handle.
Bamfette
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 3278
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Calgary
Contact:

morals in children's literature

Post by Bamfette »

I went and read the lady's article, it was 3 parts long, and there was a response form Dahl, and people were taking sides, and blah blah (she didn't merely criticise the writing, she took it as far as to say that the book showed what kind of character the writer had, and she felt that Charlie was absolutely morally depraved in every way, implying that she thought Dahl was as well)

and the above quote it turns out came slightly out of context, she was listing all the characters in the book, and mentioned Charolette as well, as a hero type character. but one st6ill gets the impression this is the type of character she prefers be the lead in a book....

as for Harry, I see it as, he's breaking the rules, yes. but in the end, he does the right thing, and especially when compared Percy, particularly later on, it shows that the rules are not necessarily RIGHT, and sometimes you have to realize that. it may be a difficult idea for kids to put into words, but i think all she's trying to say is you have to think about what's right and wrong, not just accept blindly based on what others say. and she also shows the flip side of this, where you really do have to be careful with that, with the Crouches. he followed the rules in everything, and he let his heart decide the fate of his son, but it was the wrong choice. it would have been better in that case to follow the rules. and Percy, too, his blind adherence to the Ministry rules hurting his family terribly.

where I can see some people ahving a problem with that, is people who believe in absolute rather than relative morality. they'd tend to think like Percy, I guess.

of course, that doesn't cover ALL the instances where he breaks the rules... other times, he figures out in the book why what he did was wrong. like, oh, i dunno, him realizing that people are only looking out for his safety when he keeps sneaking off places. he finally realizes that it was really pretty dumb of him to keep sneaking off, and he was really very lucky.
Garble
Lookout
Lookout
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 11:15 pm
Title: Weirdsmith
Location: The bottom of your mind
Contact:

morals in children's literature

Post by Garble »

Okay then, the lady's a nutter. I have a hard time imagining how Charlie would be considered morally depraved based on his representation in the book. He never complains, despite living in poverty. When he finds some money, he first tries to see if anyone has lost it, and imediately thinks of how it will help his family. Maybe she thinks he shouldn't have stopped to buy some chocolate with it, but the poor kid is literally starving to death at that point. Geeze.
Post Reply