The Lightning Rod: Austen Interview Gen. Discussion

KurtnMeggan · Post by **KurtnMeggan** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:14 am

Originally posted by Crawler
I'm with Robin and KurtnMeggan here...

I'm sorry, but I'm still unclear what you're with me on...that Chuck gets baited in his interviews or that the person conducting the interview (Erik?) intentionally (seemingly) avoided using the term "troll?"

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:52 pm

That he gets baited. It's simple journalism. There's nothing wrong with it because it creates interest. It's used all the time in all sorts of interviews.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:55 pm

Ultimately, here's the problem. Chuck is holding the actions of one psychotic fan against us....

I disagree in that, i've read lots of flames. Are those made by the same pyschotic fan under different names?
And i am just mentioning what i've read, i don't go to this discussions and i hardly reply, but that doesn't mean i don't read

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:17 pm

Originally posted by kurtlover
Ultimately, here's the problem. Chuck is holding the actions of one psychotic fan against us....
I disagree in that, i've read lots of flames. Are those made by the same pyschotic fan under different names?
And i am just mentioning what i've read, i don't go to this discussions and i hardly reply, but that doesn't mean i don't read

I've noticed here at Nightscrawlers that what a lot of you guys call flames, I simply call criticism. It comes in various levels, but basically, if someone can give a good reason why he's upset with the comic, then his criticism is valid.

And I'm in the camp where for the large majority of Austen's X-Men, I just don't understand how anyone could like it, and sometimes I post from that angle of thought. I don't begrudge you if you do like the work... I don't understand you either :p

Singe · Post by **Singe** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:32 pm

I think saying that it all comes back from one website is a rather narrow reaction to a pretty broad generalization. I've never been to that website, but I've seen plenty of anti-Chuck elsewere: here, AICN, guys that work at Marvel. Comparing that sentiment to anti-Morrison sentiment doesn't make sense to base it all to internet forums.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:22 pm

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw

I've noticed here at Nightscrawlers that what a lot of you guys call flames, I simply call criticism. It comes in various levels, but basically, if someone can give a good reason why he's upset with the comic, then his criticism is valid.

I never mentioned it was here in nightscrawlers, i visit another forums, some of them in different languages and see the same behaviour.

And I'm in the camp where for the large majority of Austen's X-Men, I just don't understand how anyone could like it, and sometimes I post from that angle of thought. I don't begrudge you if you do like the work... I don't understand you either :p

I've never mentioned i was entirely satisfied with is work, what it rubs me the wrong way its why somebody wastes their time online bashing a creator, no matter who is he or she.. if i don't like it, i stop reading, that simple it is.

The Drastic Spastic · Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:14 pm

Originally posted by Singe
Comparing that sentiment to anti-Morrison sentiment doesn't make sense to base it all to internet forums.

There is, or more accurately was, tons of anti-Morrison sentiment. Probably once this latest thing dies down, there won't be as much obvious anti-Austen stuff either. People will still dislike his work, like people still dislike Morrison's run, but it just won't come up.

And if it isn't on internet forums, where is it?

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:00 am

Originally posted by kurtlover
Ive never mentioned i was entirely satisfied with is work, what it rubs me the wrong way its why somebody wastes their time online bashing a creator, no matter who is he or she.. if i dont like it, i stop reading, that simple it is.

There is a difference between criticism and all-out bashing someone. If criticism is not to be allowed, why bother having a forum in the first place.

And as for not buying the books, that’s nice if your favorite character is say, Wolverine. But Nightcrawler fans were stuck primarily with Uncanny, and having to hope and beg for appearances in other books, which were sporadic and not all that generous . (Thank God for the new solo series) While I never cared for Austen’s handling of Kurt Wagner (quite frankly, IMHO I don’t think Chuck ever really had a clue about Nightcrawler), there were other characters that he wrote pretty well and I wish him success in his future projects.

Tatu · Post by **Tatu** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:23 am

Originally posted by Shadow_Dancer
And as for not buying the books, that’s nice if your favorite character is say, Wolverine.

Yeah, and this isnt directed at you just a general statement, if you buy a book just for a character and dont even like it, thats your own problem. No one elses.

I like Emma, But thought New was whacked out of its gourd, so guess what? I didnt buy it.

I like Gambit, Rogue and Psylocke, but Claremonts stories bored me, so guess what again? I didnt buy it.

I like Kurt and Lorna, but Uncanny didnt do much for me, so I didnt buy it!

..seems simple to me..

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:30 am

Oh well of couuuurse there's a big difference between bashing and criticism... but since seems like its all relative, why am i going to bother in giving the terms?
I wasn't talking about that, anyway

And once again, i wasn't talking about nightscrawlers either, i was making a general statement (like Tatu said) about what i see around in different forums.

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:37 am

Yeah, and this isnt directed at you just a general statement, if you buy a book just for a character and dont even like it, thats your own problem. No one elses.

Actually, thats why I didn’t buy Uncanny for a few years, until the X2 movie spiked my interest again. And before the reload was announced, I had decided to drop my subscription but didnt because of Claremonts return.

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:44 am

Originally posted by Tatu
I like Emma, But thought New was whacked out of its gourd, so guess what? I didnt buy it.

But New made Emma. She was around before that, but she never had the same *cough* sparkle.

Tatu · Post by **Tatu** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:12 am

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
But New made Emma. She was around before that, but she never had the same *cough* sparkle.

I know, she has some great lines and was generally greatness but i didnt like the book enough to keep picking it up for just her.

Singe · Post by **Singe** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:02 am

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
And if it isn't on internet forums, where is it?

Like I said, I've seen it in reviews, sites like AICN, a few of my friends and a couple of guys that work at Marvel (apparently some of the editors can't stand him).

Jeremys Iron · Post by **Jeremys Iron** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:07 am

Ya know, with the exception of one issue of Exile that Austen did and the lastest issue of X-Men I think I have greatly enjoyed every Austen penned comic that I’ve read. And from the very brief interaction we had when he was at (Comi)X-Fan I thought we was a great guy (what can I say it was like my first post and he was the first creator I ever got to ‘talk’ to and he wrote me a very long, thoughtful response that kinda surprised me). I’m going to miss him on X-Men but at least we still have Action Comics, Flywires and Worldwatch (just wish it wasn’t B&W).

That having been said, I really don’t think this interview was a very good idea. By now Chuck has to know what type of questions he’s going to be asked and given that fact there was no way that this wasn’t going to be received any way but badly. I mean I knew what the responses were going to be from specific posters before I was halfway finished the interview. Which isn’t to say they’re right necessarily just that when the consequences of ones actions are so obvious beforehand, well...ya poke the lion you’re going to get snapped at.
Still he made one very important point:

Originally posted by Chuck Austen at ComiX-Fan
Because this is an industry where the fans have been given the illusion of greater control over Marvel and DCs properties than they actually have? Because fans have been here longer than the latest creator, and these fans then therefore feel greater entitlement to these creations than the current creator?

Now I could go on at length about why I think this important and why I think it is so foolish for fans to think this way. But instead, I want to post a response that I read on another thread over at ComiX-Fan right before I stopped posting there. It says exactly what I want to say better than I ever could and is, I think one of the most salient points that I have ever seen on the internet.

Originally posted by dizfactor at ComiX-Fan
OK, Im going to make this as blunt and to the point as I possibly can: Marvel owes us, the fans, precisely nothing . We give the guy at the comic store a few bucks, and we get a comic book in return. The purchase of that single issue is a closed transaction. Neither party walks away from the deal with any further obligation to the other, morally, legally, or otherwise. If we dont like it, we are under no obligation to buy that comic again, and they are under no obligation to write comics with our tastes and opinions in mind.

The fact that this single transaction may be repeated hundreds or thousands of times does not change a thing. You talk about "supporting" Marvel as if it was selfless act of altruism, but it was not. You gave them money, and they gave you a comic book. In theory, you each got what you wanted, and if you didnt get what you wanted, thats kind of your own fault: caveat emptor.

I totally sympathize with the weird anger and resentment that festers when someone butchers a favorite character, but I absolutely cannot stand this self-righteous fanboy mentality of entitlement. Its just a bunch of spoiled, self-centered, consumer ****iness and throwing of tantrums. You and I are people who buy comic books, and were no more entitled to feel outraged about any of this than we are when some candy company adds more nougat to a favorite candy bar and makes it taste all weird.

Maybe you do care about the characters more than they do, but you know what: to paraphrase a Ferengi-ism, that and a paper sack is worth the sack. Its a franchise character, and these things happen. When Marvel does something you dont like with their characters, its not a personal attack on you, nor is a betrayal of some imaginary relationship you have with Marvel. Its just the way things happen, and if it upsets you this much, youre too attached and you need to take a step back and get some perspective.

Originally posted by Bamfette
i know too many people who have left X-Fan because of the trollish atmosphere there to accept that its changed significantly.

That’s why I stopped posting there a few months ago.

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw
Seriously, if ComiX-Fan was so bad, why is it that only Chuck has departed in such a public and disgraceful manner? Why is it that every other creator that posts there regularly gets respect and admiration from the fans, but so few like Chuck Austen?

Chuck probably could have handled leaving better (I think even he would agree about that) but I’m sure he was angry and some times we do silly things when we are angry (especially on comic book messageboards

). And there have been other creators with forums at ComiX-Fan whose forums are no longer there. Darick Robertson springs to mind; now Robertson said that it was because he wanted a less all-ages board but I’ve heard it intimated in a number of places that there was more to it than that. Also there are several, if not many or most of the creator forums that are there that have little or no activity at all. Many of them go months on end without any posts whatsoever, some have been well over a year and are just having the date of the last post updated (I’ve seen it in at least three or four forums) so that there appears to be more activity than there actually is.
Now I really don’t want to be attacking ComiX-Fan, ‘cause I do feel that it is probably the best general news and discussion comic book messageboard out there. I just can’t post there ‘cause I totally disagree with the way in which the mods interpret their rules and I find it infuriating. It’s not even mainly the stuff said against Austen but posters like a certain “eXtreme” Austen supporter/Claremont hater that seem to be completely unable to be civil to anyone, ever. Or another poster that only goes into threads (about Kordey or Wildcats 3.0 for instance) to make attacks against those involved. I just don’t understand how people without any concept of respect, for anyone at all, are allowed to continue to post. One-offs/bad days can be forgiven but with too many people on messageboards its emblematic of their entire attitude and quite frankly they need to be cut from the proverbial herd.

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw
Ive noticed here at Nightscrawlers that what a lot of you guys call flames, I simply call criticism. It comes in various levels, but basically, if someone can give a good reason why hes upset with the comic, then his criticism is valid.

But isn’t the tone and the intent of posts important as well? Regardless of how valid or invalid someone’s criticism is, it still should be done with some sense of civility and respect for those involved. Otherwise, the point of the post is to look like constructive criticism while it’s personally attacking the creator. It is basically saying, “So and so’s work is crap, it SUX!!!!1111!!!” but just dress up in pretty frills with a little bit of perfume to mask the stench. The best example of this is when fans describe a professional writer or artists work as fan fiction or fan art. They can have the most coherent, well thought out argument that has ever been presented but the second they bring out those terms the intent is clear. The use of those words (when describing professional work) is always totally unnecessary because it can always be done in a more intelligent and respectful way. The only reason to use such inflammatory language is if you want to take a personal shot at a creator.

Another example is giving your reasons one time and from then on only stating your conclusion (i.e. that writer is a misogynist). Why, because not everyone is going to read every post and so every post that doesn’t have a reason will look like a attack to someone. And more importantly it is an attack because the poster could do any number of things to make their argument clear with minimal effort: cut and past, a short summary, a link to the post with their reasons, but they don’t, why? Obviously, it is to get away with defaming someone and being able to get away with it by using the easy and convenient excuse that they have stated their reasons before, in another post. But every post must be considered on its own merits ‘cause as I said someone who reads the flame first isn’t going to know about any previous posts and that someone could be the person that the attack is directed at. How is that going to make them feel? Even if there was no malicious intent it is still very lazy and I’m sure we don’t want to encourage laziness that will definitely be hurtful.

When I was still posting at ComiX-Fan both these types and other subtle forms of attacks where being made all the time about Austen and others, like Igor Kordey and nothing was ever done about them. And it’s not like the mods over there are stupid, in fact, many of them are among the most articulate people posting on comic messageboards so I know they can catch these things but chose not to. Well, actually the real reason I know they can catch them is ‘cause I’ve often seen them doing it themselves. But then, that’s a whole other ball of wax.

Sorry for this rant but I feel better now and as always this is all just my opinion, I might be wrong.

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:51 am

Originally posted by Jeremys Iron
Originally posted by dizfactor at ComiX-Fan
I totally sympathize with the weird anger and resentment that festers when someone butchers a favorite character, but I absolutely cannot stand this self-righteous fanboy mentality of entitlement. It's just a bunch of spoiled, self-centered, consumer ****iness and throwing of tantrums. You and I are people who buy comic books, and we're no more entitled to feel outraged about any of this than we are when some candy company adds more nougat to a favorite candy bar and makes it taste all weird.

Actually, if you write an outraged letter/make an angry call to a candy company about their product, they give you free stuff.

Not saying that the consumer should be compensated for stale writing the same way he would for stale cookies, merely pointing out a flaw in that argument.

Jeremys Iron · Post by **Jeremys Iron** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:45 am

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
Originally posted by Jeremys Iron
Originally posted by dizfactor at ComiX-Fan
I totally sympathize with the weird anger and resentment that festers when someone butchers a favorite character, but I absolutely cannot stand this self-righteous fanboy mentality of entitlement. Its just a bunch of spoiled, self-centered, consumer ****iness and throwing of tantrums. You and I are people who buy comic books, and were no more entitled to feel outraged about any of this than we are when some candy company adds more nougat to a favorite candy bar and makes it taste all weird.

Actually, if you write an outraged letter/make an angry call to a candy company about their product, they give you free stuff.

Not saying that the consumer should be compensated for stale writing the same way he would for stale cookies, merely pointing out a flaw in that argument.

Cute.

But I fail to see how that shows a flaw in the argument. First of all your comparison is inaccurate. A stale cookie would be analogous to a comic book with a physical defect like missing or bad stapling, or misprinted pages, etc. not to one in which you didn’t like the content. Second, all physically defective products are completely returnable to Diamond for credit or replacement if they have the stock.

I had this happen to me once, I got an early issue of Emma Frost which had two pages that were unstapled in the middle of the issue. I took it back to the store and exchanged it for another copy and the owner just sent it back to Diamond (or so he said).

Also, comic books and candy bars are produced in different ways and have differing costs to the producer which makes giving away free product much more cost effective to one than the other. Whether or not you get something free when you complain is immaterial to the point of the analogy. It changes nothing about the fact that both have subjective value and are prone to creative changes that have nothing to do with the consumer. Which is where your stale writing to stale cookie comparison goes off course, one is a value judgement the other is a factual judgement. They are not analogous like the comparison in the argument I quoted.

LadyErin · Post by **LadyErin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:45 am

Originally posted by Jeremys Iron

Originally posted by dizfactor at ComiX-Fan
I totally sympathize with the weird anger and resentment that festers when someone butchers a favorite character, but I absolutely cannot stand this self-righteous fanboy mentality of entitlement. It's just a bunch of spoiled, self-centered, consumer ****iness and throwing of tantrums. You and I are people who buy comic books, and we're no more entitled to feel outraged about any of this than we are when some candy company adds more nougat to a favorite candy bar and makes it taste all weird.

Doesn't New Coke disprove this? They changed it, the Coke drinkers didn't like it so they complained and didn't buy it, therefore Coca-Cola when back to Old Coke.

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:28 pm

Originally posted by LadyErin
Originally posted by Jeremys Iron

Originally posted by dizfactor at ComiX-Fan
I totally sympathize with the weird anger and resentment that festers when someone butchers a favorite character, but I absolutely cannot stand this self-righteous fanboy mentality of entitlement. It's just a bunch of spoiled, self-centered, consumer ****iness and throwing of tantrums. You and I are people who buy comic books, and we're no more entitled to feel outraged about any of this than we are when some candy company adds more nougat to a favorite candy bar and makes it taste all weird.

Doesn't New Coke disprove this? They changed it, the Coke drinkers didn't like it so they complained and didn't buy it, therefore Coca-Cola when back to Old Coke.

Yep. And Marvel has gone back to Old Marvel, and no one likes that either.

Just can't win.

LadyErin · Post by **LadyErin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:12 pm

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic

Yep. And Marvel has gone back to Old Marvel, and no one likes that either.

Just can't win.

No one ever totally wins, that's the maim problem. But if by old Marvel, you mean the current Excaiburl and other ReLoad, then there are lots, self inculded, who are thrilled to tears and spent the first day of [insert comic here] rereading it and doing the naked happy pagan dance. Or some other from of joy. So in fact, a lot of us did win.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:55 pm

yeah, but the point is that for anyone who loves it, someone else hates it. you're winning, but it usually means someone else is losing. but there is no way around that, and it's why no one is ever right when they say someone sucks or whatever becuase that can only be decided by the individual, and is the reason Marvel can never go based on what people say on the net. they have to do it based on what sells.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:00 pm

The difference is that the people stopped buying New Coke. The only real vote you get is with your dollar.

People sitting on a message board, saying that they have a right to bitch about New Coke because they've been drinking Coke since they were kids...while downing a sixpack of New Coke...aren't going to get anywhere.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:54 pm

Group 01 likes it, Group 02 dont, suddenly the product that likes Group 01 is in at the market, Group 02 wont buy it. You can't please them all.
Why it has to be about who wins and who loses? the only that already wins is the company that releases the product, period. Group 01 will only be pleased but they didn't "win" they just happen to like the product that is in the market right now, its more like being lucky.

LadyErin · Post by **LadyErin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:26 pm

Originally posted by Crawler
The difference is that the people stopped buying New Coke. The only real vote you get is with your dollar.

Well, I did not buy the comics as well as complain on the web, in letter form to marvel CEO's, and in any other form I thought would get my point across. So, for me at least, it was a vaid point.

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:48 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
yeah, but the point is that for anyone who loves it, someone else hates it. you're winning, but it usually means someone else is losing. but there is no way around that, and it's why no one is ever right when they say someone sucks or whatever becuase that can only be decided by the individual, and is the reason Marvel can never go based on what people say on the net. they have to do it based on what sells.

I understand that with the less-popular titles, but with titles like Uncanny X-Men, that's gonna be in at LEAST the top 20 no matter what, I'd like to think that they could take a few suggestions here and there on quality. If anything... maybe at least do a little to make the dialogue sound less clumsy, or get the pacing better. Neither of these things have anything to do with the plot, but they WILL make the plot read a hell of a lot better.