"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Panz »

As a writer and female, I want to bring up the topic of realism vs cheesecake. On one hand most of the comic buying audience is male and between the age of 18-40 (iirc) and frankly, most of them don't wan't to see dumpy, or plain jane women in frumpy flight suits, sweats or tee-and jean combos...and certainly not in leather or spandex....so because they are buying most of the comics, they want to see shapely babes in tight clothing....the question is how do you attract a wider reading audience when most women are offended by what most men like?....is there a way to reach a happy medium? I know that some people have made the statement that most women like Manga. I am not one of them...Granted I tend to be atypical.

I don't think that girls running around in school uniforms, saving the world is any more believable than women in stiletto heeled boots running across roof tops and kicking butt.

The Questions:
1) How do we make comics more appealling to a wider scope of readers?
2) is that possible?
3) Can we come to a happy medium?
4) Will that help sell comics, or merely dilute the audience, losing some, gaining some?
5) Do you view sexy clothing as exploitive (I don't really, how a character is written is much more important than how they dress...if a woman is portrayed as a sex starved simpering bimbo who can't stand on her own with out a man, then it doesn't matter if she is dressed modest as a nun...We are not our clothing)
6) How do we strike a balance between alluring/sexy and exploitive? Especially when people look at the art first and if still interested, read the story.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Nomad X »

Originally posted by Panz

The Questions:
1) How do we make comics more appealling to a wider scope of readers?
2) is that possible?


Thanks in advance for your thoughts
Annika
First thing that needs to be done on that one isn't the outfits anybody is drawn in in comics, it's getting rid of the "children's books" stigma that comic books have been stuck with...

Example: My girlfriend used to hate comic books until I introduced her to J. Michael Linsner's Dawn (a distinctly adult book, where the character Dawn is frequently drawn in revealling or overly sexy outfits)... She fell in love with it and has expanded her collection to other titles...

Once that stigma is gone, as long as everything is done tastefully, I don't think it really matters what any of the characters wear or are drawn like...
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by BAMFCentral »

5/6) are subjective as you typed out in your question. One persons offensive matter is anothers work of art.


I can't say most of the women I know are offened by what they read/see in the books. But there are some many out there now besides the mainstream that all types can find their niche.... A few I know love Love & Rockets, for an example.


But the comics I read do tend to have the over developed people in them. All tops and curves, which is how they have been drawn for quite a while. And this goes for the men and women heroes/villians depicted in the story. While not all women have large editions and model trim bodies, not all men are robust in muscle build and scuplted as they are depicted. Which is part of the make believe of the hero world. But where is the balance... while there are comics that depict woman scantily clad ( though how do we define that, the men's costumes leave little to the imagination ) there are those that will show mean in an equal light. The ever popular Excalibur #16, I believe, adn the most recent issue of Uncanny X-Men where Juggernaut and She-Hulk battle a usurper of Juggernauts power, all the while in their skeves.


but how many female fans would find Kurt attractive if he was running around with a 45 inch waist, bear belly, ... (insert Bullock from the Batman series into your mind hear for the body type I am describing)


On a balance, I think the show Buffy and Angel have a good balance. While the actors are pretty, they don't go jumping around in form fetting outfits, but just street wear. The X-Men movie was another good stroke, at least the X-men uniforms. The outfits were a little bulky and really didn't reveal the body of the actor underneath. Though they did suggest it a bit. Which they tried in the book, but the book outfits were a bit more *ahem* form fitting and there was an outcry from some of the fan base that they did not like the removal of the costumes. And it has been rumored that the costumes are suppose to come back in 2004, not sure if that is going to happen or not.


Some body types just don't scream heroic or athletic. I'm not saying they can't be, normal people do some of the most amazing things. But can you imagine John Candy being the star of a track and field movie.... well maybe if the Farrelly Brothers did it... but I digress... Change will always come about when people can present an idea that will alter peoples opinions...

The movie stars on the screen of today are good examples.. not all of them are what you would call model attractive... not going to give my opinions on who as everyone has there favorites and don't want to incur the wrath of those people I might offend by saying their favorite star isn't cute....
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Bamfette »

oohh.... cool topic, as soon as i get back from grocery shopping expect to hear an earful. :D


but till then here is an easily copy and pasteable template for the questions:

1) How do we make comics more appealling to a wider scope of readers?


2) is that possible?


3) Can we come to a happy medium?


4) Will that help sell comics, or merely dilute the audience, losing some, gaining some?


5) Do you view sexy clothing as exploitive (I don't really, how a character is written is much more important than how they dress...if a woman is portrayed as a sex starved simpering bimbo who can't stand on her own with out a man, then it doesn't matter if she is dressed modest as a nun...We are not our clothing)


6) How do we strike a balance between alluring/sexy and exploitive? Especially when people look at the art first and if still interested, read the story.
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Panz »

On the other side of this, I don't see people, male OR female complaining that men are being exploited by having the industry prey on thier hormones :smirk

Or hear complaints when Hank dashes about in a Speedo :p
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Bamfette »

1) How do we make comics more appealling to a wider scope of readers?

keep the writing strong and people will enjoy it. don't try to write 'comics for girls' becuase girls tastes are just as varied as guys, and they will like a variety of things, not just what is to be determined by someone else to be 'for them.'

2) is that possible?

I believe so but it will take a long time for the stigma of comics being a boys club to wear off. and to have that stigma wear off, a lot of the more 'mainstream' characters should get less degrading costumes. the female readers who arehere now have for the most part learned to ignore it for the sake of the story, but they should not have to.

3) Can we come to a happy medium?

sure, and i think we are well on our way to that. the mainstream books in general right now have much more appeal to female readers than they did even 5 years ago.

4) Will that help sell comics, or merely dilute the audience, losing some, gaining some?

as long as there is variety, everyone should be able to find soemthing they like. the problem in the past was the whole Image movement where the vast majority of what was out there was targeted to one group. teenage/early 20's men. specifically those within that demographic that wanted big boobs (and perfectly spherical ones, at that), big guns, and gore.

5) Do you view sexy clothing as exploitive (I don't really, how a character is written is much more important than how they dress...if a woman is portrayed as a sex starved simpering bimbo who can't stand on her own with out a man, then it doesn't matter if she is dressed modest as a nun...We are not our clothing)

I agree writing is more important if a character is going to be seen as a sexual character... but as far as costumes go, they can be sexy without being exploitave. will get into that later.

6) How do we strike a balance between alluring/sexy and exploitive? Especially when people look at the art first and if still interested, read the story.

I think it is entirely possible to be sexy without being exploitive. look at the current Catwoman or Mystique vs. say, Witchblade, or Jim Lee's Psylocke. Catwoman and Mystique are fully (or nearly fully) covered, their costumes are extremely practical for what they do, but they are still SEXY! the oufits are stylish, form fitting and play up their femeninity without exploiting it or being degrading. it is also something a woman could realistically wear in the real world. (well. ok, Catwoman's is pushing it with the goggles and all... maybe if she were skiing :p) Witchblade and Psylocke, the goal of the costume seems to be to show as much skin and cleavage as possible. it's nothing a real woman would ever wear unless they were in a porn video or Playboy. they defy laws of physics. they are completely impractical. oh sure, Witchblade has armor... covering everything but her vital organs! someone could gut her in 2 seconds, but her forarms are protected, that's what's important :rolleyes oh, and stiletto heels are SO practical for fighting... just, their costumes are degrading. some may find them sexy, i guess, but i think Mystique and Catwoman are showing you can BE sexy without being degrading.

I don't want to come off as a prude. I'm not. but there is a VAST difference between sexy and degrading. Nudity is not necessarily sexy nor degrading (though it could be depending on the context) though some people equate it as such. everyone is naked atleast once a day, unless they are disgusting and don't shower or change their clothes. so i have no problem with a character being nude. you can show it full frontal with no creative shadow placement, for all i care. similarily, i don't have a problem with a woman wearing skimpy clothing. so long as it fits the story.

Witchblade and Psylocke and the White Queen and Vampirella are running around very close to being naked, basically wearing lingere, costumes that are designed to 'sex them up' as much as possible, for NO REASON (atleast, not very good ones). and that's what makes them degrading. on the other hand, there is The Eternal, Jesca and the others are nude from the waist up, and there is often sex shown on panel. often very brutally. but it is not degrading to me because there is a REASON, a MESSAGE, for the nudity.

I don't have a problem with books where the main goal is to provide soft-core ore even hard-core porn and such for readers. some people want that, and hey, they have that right. I wontbe reading it, but that doesn't mean it should not be published, i am just not the target audience. it's when it becomes the norm industry wide, that it becomes accepted as NORMAL for comics that it is a problem.
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Siona »

1) How do we make comics more appealling to a wider scope of readers?
Myself beig a girl ((last time I checked, anyhow. :p)), I prefer actually seeing girls that are realistic. It's also why my characters are realistic as well; an over-the-top-sexy character is just too hard to identify with. A girl that, let's say, doesn't like how she looks or something around this is much more appealing to me.

But guys read comics, too! ((SHOCK AND HORROR!)) So there should be that one character who is, yes, sexy. Just to balance out the forces of good and evil. :p

2) is that possible? Of course, as long as there are good writers and artists to actually make it realistic.

3) Can we come to a happy medium? Like Bamfette said; look at comics back in the day, and they were far less female-acceptable.

4) Will that help sell comics, or merely dilute the audience, losing some, gaining some? Some may like, some may hate it. I know I have friends who hated Northstar and others that adored him and began reading simply because a gay X-Man had arrived!

5) Do you view sexy clothing as exploitive (I don't really, how a character is written is much more important than how they dress...if a woman is portrayed as a sex starved simpering bimbo who can't stand on her own with out a man, then it doesn't matter if she is dressed modest as a nun...We are not our clothing) Clothes can be sexy without being just horridly explotive. I myself adore baggy clothes on a girl! But I do think that clothes do partially represent a person, and that's how a character's clothes should be...without them being naked, of course.

6) How do we strike a balance between alluring/sexy and exploitive? Especially when people look at the art first and if still interested, read the story. Again, Bamfette nailed it; I like our current Mystique way more than the older version with her white dress that, to me at least, was pretty revealing. Sexy isn't just in the clothes; it's in grammar, the way a character moves or acts, and many other things.

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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by Wolvertique »

1. Comic books are fantasy. They're not intended to portray reality. Let's face it...the mutant situation isn't realistic as it is in the X-universe. We wouldn't like it if it was. I know no comic fans who want the comics to mirror reality.

2. As a long-time female gamer, I can tell you I don't engage in fantasy to be an ugly female character as my main PC, anyhow. I have no problem with attractive females being the main staples of any comic world. I wouldn't mind getting the body upgrade you'd get to be a female mutant! ;)

3. I see no problem with even going farther than Marvel already does in the sexual arena. But that's me. I wouldn't mind there being more balance, either...though we can already tell by how many times Wolverine's uniform top gets destroyed that they're going for eye candy in his case, no?
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Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
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Post by Bamfette »

yes, but there is a difference between sexy and degrading. when i say a character should not be degrading in a mainstream book, i don't equate that to mean they should be ugly. they can be beautiful and sexy, still be in a world of fantasy, still be wearing a larger than life kind of costume, even. but not walking around in lingere with her boobs covered by 2 inches of cloth.
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Post by Panz »

With my Twilight Project series, most of the time when the characters are not engaged in super-heroics, they are in trendy street wear. The costumes that I want to see them in are somewhat tight and sleek, but there won't be so much bare skin as shiney latex or leather. Sure it's unrealistic to fight in pointy heeled boots, but in a way....this is all fantasy. On one hand, I think a character can look perfectly cool in big stompin' Dr. Martins, but on the other, I like sexy boots like the next girl.

So for me it'll be a character by character, situation by situation, book by book decision.
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Post by Crawler »

Characters, much like real people, are first judged by appearance and then by character.

I think that you could probably get away with a nude heroine if you wrote her the right way.

Likewise, a fully-clothed and frumpy female character could be degrading if written wrong.

For the longest time, Jim Lee drew Rogue mostly nude with a body that would be physically impossible. It made no sense in the context of the character's powers. But it still never really came off as degrading because of the reasoning behind why she would wear such clothes and it was gratuitous.
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"Babes" vs "Real women" in comics?

Post by scheherazade »

1) How do we make comics more appealling to a wider scope of readers?

I don't think the industry needs to try and rope in women, but try and more people in general to read comics, by making different types. Like someone said before, comics are generally seen as the realm of kids and peter-pan complexed adults.

2) is that possible?

I think so. Get good writers with new and unusual ideas. Advertise widely, outside of normal venues. If a new book is a historical account of war, say, taking out an ad on the history channel or in a relevant magazine would be smart.

3) Can we come to a happy medium?

There is always a happy medium *g* There can still be the same books there are now, they don't have to all change, and alienate the core audience.

4) Will that help sell comics, or merely dilute the audience, losing some, gaining some?

Definately help sell them

5) Do you view sexy clothing as exploitive (I don't really, how a character is written is much more important than how they dress...if a woman is portrayed as a sex starved simpering bimbo who can't stand on her own with out a man, then it doesn't matter if she is dressed modest as a nun...We are not our clothing)

I don't think it's exploitative, I think it is, however, overdone and a bit off. If you've got five women running around half-naked all, it stops being sexy after a while. In fact, putting them in more concealing clothing might even be sexier. (come on, imagine Emma in a slinky evening dress. Es yummy)

I think it would be best to save the scanty outfits for the bedroom *g* I mean, random flying around in sexy outfits, or lounging at home in sexy outfits, as a special treat, instead of a given. Much more yummy.

6) How do we strike a balance between alluring/sexy and exploitive? Especially when people look at the art first and if still interested, read the story.

Have pretty art? There's T&A everywhere, so you might snag readers with mediocre art and skanky characters, or you could definately catch readers with good art and sensual characters, not necessarily as mere sex objects
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