Dave's perspectives on X-Men

A monument and archive dedicated to Dave and Paty Cockrum. Nightscrawlers was their home on the internet and always will be. This forum preserves that legacy.
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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Dark Bamf » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:46 am

Dave butting in here to point out that the Singer and Superman topics already have a thread: 'MOVIES!' Any further discussion of those topics can be done there.

:bamf

[Edited on 3-8-2006 by Dark Bamf]
'I'm in love, I'm in love with Atilla the Hun--
Atilla the Hun, Atilla the Hun.
He may pillage your village and kill everyone
but I still love Atilla the Hun.'
--Atilla's Hunny

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Paty » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:17 pm

:magneto
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
that I did! they nearly fell outta the upstairs windows! After that, reister, the younger chief was scared to death of me cuz if I would do that...gulp...I would do ANYTHING... and he knew he couldn't control it... or me!
heheheheheheheheheeee

but as far as uniform skin showing... ainn't happenin when you are a firefightin'

dave used to be very funny about the firefighting. the alarm would kick off my plectron with where and what was the call... middle of an icy January night... some asswipe had rolled his car coming home from Miss Kitty's... or some such... and I would bound outta bed, running for my turnouts, cussing a blue streak cuz I KNEW what that kind of call meant... no one would be in the vehicle...we would have to search the icy road, and surrounding woods to see if the driver was thrown clear and perhaps hurt and unconcious... but he was really hightailing it home so when the cops caught up tohim the next day, he would be sober and ony have a minor infraction for leaving the scene of an accident instead of a major DWI. In any event it would be a couple of hours out in the cold and ice and , sometimes, snow...and I was cussing a blue streak... and Dave would snuggle down in the bed with a cheerful "have FUN, honey...this is what you wanted, right?"
sigh... husbandcide wasn't allowed... but it was very attractive when he did that. He once thought about joining the company, too... but then I told him he would have to take forty hours of training within the first year in Essentials of Firefighting just to be a member...and he said "never mind..." superheroing has it's dues...
LOL
paty
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Dark Bamf » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:31 pm

One thing I got a big charge out of was a poster up at the firehouse, urging firefighters to wear their Scott packs--anti-smoke breathing gear--and featuring a firefighter in gear standing alongside Clayton Moore, the original Lone Ranger, in full costume. The copy on the poster said 'AMERICA'S HEROES WEAR THEIR MASKS.'

Great!

:bamf



[Edited on 3-8-2006 by Dark Bamf]
'I'm in love, I'm in love with Atilla the Hun--
Atilla the Hun, Atilla the Hun.
He may pillage your village and kill everyone
but I still love Atilla the Hun.'
--Atilla's Hunny

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Paty » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:36 pm

:magneto
yep... see? Even the Lone Ranger knows who are the real superheroes in America...well... anywhere, for that matter...
When Dave was still doing occasional work for Marvel, I would go into NY with pages from him to his editor, Terry Kavenaugh. We got to talking about my adventures in firemantics one day and he told me he had applied to FDNY...Fire Department of New York...and had taken the test... which was onerous in the max, he said. In fact, he said he knew firefighters on duty with FDNY that had told him that the hardest thing they had ever been called on to do wasTHAT DAMNED TEST! LOL...I think he was waiting to hear back if he had made the "call list" last time I talked tohim about it. I ssometimes wonder if he did...I guess paper superheroing isn't enough for some of us...
My number one son, Phil... the one who just got married...applied as well, took the test... which he said was hard but nothing special...of course, Phil also climbs ice cliffs... so go figure...nothing is gona be hard after that... fifty pounds of turnout gear and thirty to fifty pounds of hose, up a double flight of stairs?? sure...no prob... sheesh! Phil passed with flying colors, aced the test ...heh, why not? he's been firefighting and EMTing since he was sixteen!...and made the call list. they took so much time "calling" him that he started college and was halfway through his degree when the call finally came. He passed on it, however, to finish his degree. He's still a volunteer fireman with his local company in Orange Lake, though. He did say to them that if there was an alarm during his wedding, he would NOT respond. the company gave him a pass on it...LOL... considering the circumstances. He lives about as far away from the firehouse as I live from the one down here...sight distance... and even though I am old and legally blind, the ears still perk up when I hear that siren and I run to see which way the trucks are going...gee... just like I used to do when I was in High School and they wouldn't let me join the Fire Department cuz I was a GIRL!!!
sounds like the superhero thing, doesn't it?
LOL
Paty
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by SamKarns » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:55 am

Sure does. How long were you two volunteering? How did Jean get killed in Planet X? I've been trying to get a copy of the issue to read with no luck.

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Paty » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:40 am

:magneto
Well... Phil, my son, has been a volunteer firefighter amd EMT since he sas sixteen and he is now thirty eight. I was a volunteer firefighter for sixteen years. that doesn't count the twelve years I was an Auxiliary member or the years I spent doing double duty as Pres. of the Aux while I was an acive firefighter and EMT. I was even on the "active" list after the eyes blew and I became legally blind... the only blind firefighter in NY, I bet! I couldn't go to the scene, but I could still sit radio room during mountain fires... which, by the way, I did!!! Dave had to drive me to the firehouse, but I did it...and helped put the trucks back in service when they came back from the call, too. I only quit active duty when we moved down here... eight hundred plus miles is a little too far a distance to resspond from...LOL... and I am getting a little long in the tooth for the job...it is a sport for the young. I wanted to be a firefighter even when I was a teenager... but back then, they didn't allow women to do anything interesting. our choices for life work were pretty limited. Wife/mother, teacher, nurse, airline flight attendant, secretary. that was pretty much IT. No firefighters. No cops. You werenn't even encouraged to go into the armed services....except as nurses or secritaries. Being a female in the fifties and earlly sixties really sucked unless you were subservient and girly girly. You had to fight and claw your way into any "male oriented" job. I didn't become a firefighter until I was forty five!!! Twenty good years wasted being an Aux member but not being allowed to fight fire, drive the trucks or even learn how to use the resuscitator for medical calls!!! It was only when the companies were so hard up for responders that they allowed women to be members, get training and respond that they found out that we are damn good at it. My company, Cragsmoor, up on the mountain, was one of the first in the county to accept female firefighters...simmply because womenwere the only ones up there to respond during the daytime! the other companies in the county laughed at them and made stupid jokes until THEY had a problem with declining volunteerism... and needed warm bodies to respond. Desperation is a wonderful leveller of playing fields.

Planet X is the worst story arc in the history of comics. You really don't wanna waste your money. the gist of the Phoenix part of it is... Phoenix and Wolverine were being flung into the sun... almost there.. and Logan kept saying to her... become the Phoenix and get us outta here...she kep saying It doesn't work like that.. I can't just change into Phoenix... which she could up till then... so Logan had to pop his claws, stab her to kill her so she could turn into Phoenix and save them.. which she did... coming back to NYC, which "Magneto" had taken over, in spite of the superheroes who lived there... which they later in the arc tried to explain had been lured outta touwn with a phone call about a terrorist threat or bomb or somehting in Brookllyn...yeah...it was THAT stupid. In any event she and wolvie got back from the sun, plowed down through the magnetic shield "Mags" had in place and went to rescue the X men and Xavier from a wild eyed "Magneto"...who wasn't really Magneto at all... but he grabbed her ankle and "sent a magnetic pulse through her" and killed her. Yeah...while she was being Phoenix... after she had powered up, defied the magnetic pulses of the sun and the vacuum/cold of space to rescue herself and Logan...Mags is supposed to kill her with a magnetic pulse! Riiiiiiiiight! NOT! You see what I mean about STUPID!!!???
Thewhole arc was nothing more than a temper tanturm of Morrison's. It was so badly written and so illogical that they are still trying to deal with the stupidities of the fallout from it instead of just retconning the whole damn mess outta existance. Well... they HAVE established that the "Magneto" who did all that shit wasn't really the real Magneto... who was on Genosha recovering from the Sentinel blitzkreig and slaughter of mutants there... which Morrison did in in the first couple issues of his run. They shoulda seen the inept handwriting on the wall then.. but no...he was allowed to run riot through Marvel canon and continuity and characterization for two years and I am not sure Marvel is ever gonna recover completelly from his insanity and ineptitude. You don't wanna waste your money. Tthe story is so disjointed and stupid with the characters acting so illogically and out of character and with no understanding of their powers or how to use them that it is a total embarassment that that story ever saw print. I think Marvel has finally come to the realization that this is the unhappy truth of it... but what to do, now?
To attempt to appease the babbling Morrison fans...my favorite name for them is "mindlsaves" cuz they seem to acept any drivel he writes...Marvel is trying to salvage what they can from his run... and tying itself in knots in doing so...cuz nothing is researched, nothing is logical or fits into canonical characterization...much less the parallel storylines in the shared Universe... which is part of Marvel's corporate identity! I swear to you... Morrison couldn't have done Marvel and it's characters more damage if he had been PAID to sabotage it and them. And the fact that it was printed in ethe first place only shows that there were and still are NO mature, intelligent editors at Marvel to say "NO!" when the pages came through editorial.
the arc starts with New X Men 147 and runs to 150 and is the most stupid, vile and bigotted tirade in the history of comics. Not only for what it does to Magneto... but for what it did to every character Morrison could get his hands on. At that point, he knew he had burned his bridges at Marvel...so he jumped ship clandestinelly and signed a contract with DC.. still jollying Quesada along with the thought he would sign another contract with Marvel... which Joey was gonna announce at the San Diego Con of that year. At the con he left Joe standing there at a panel with egg on his face by announcing that he had signed with DC...surprise ! Joey...and I am told the yelling and screaming in the hall was heard ... and immediately reported... by too many fans for Marvel to deny it convincingly. Which Joey tried to do anyway, to save face. It was a gigantic slap in the face and a monumental "f*ck you!" to Marvel and its fans. At that point, the stupid arc wasn't even printed... and it shouldn't have been. It would have been better for the company if there had been no New X men on the stands for a couple of months while they had someone else pick up the reins of the storylines and tie them up within continuity. In the last two pages of 150, Morrison jumps a hundred fifty years into the supposed future in a vain attempt to keep Marvel from using the X folk again in current continuity!!! The monumental BALLS of that bastard!!! And the fans can't see this is a giant "up yours"??? gimme a break!
That piece of walking, talking excrement damaged the company I loved more than life itself!!! And they are still picking up the pieces and tippytoeing around the shitpiles he left there. They should flush every single bit of it down the toilet where it so richly deserves to go.

OK...now THAT is the beginning of a rant. Only the beginning, mind you...I shall leave it at that, because I have done this rant on more than one occasion and more than one board or forum. You want the whole rant? You can search it out...
Morrison is a button you don't wanna push with me. I get angry. I am not a nice person when I am angry. You wouldn't like me when I am angry. I don't turn green or become wild eyed... OK..I become wild eyed... but I DON'T turn green... when you push my Morrison button...I put on the Magneto helmet and get as wild eyed and irrationalas he made the Magster.
What goes around , comes around, Morrison... You'll get yours!

OK...now you see the difference between rant and non rant? Rant I start cussing in the extreme...and I actually restrained myself there... didn't say the "F" word every other word. I got a mouth on me kiddo...and I got it working at Marvel! I can cuss a camel herder into the ground when I am perturbed... and Morrison makes me perturbed. I could outcuss any member of my fire company, too... so they wisely tried not to perturb me.

Anyway...you asked... LOL...be careful what you ask for.. you may get it...
LOL
paty
:magneto
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by SamKarns » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:35 am

I can't understand why Marvel don't listen you. Have you tried consulting Quasada and Co. ?

What should be done to the X-Men to make things return to way it supposed to be?

How is your vision Dave? Was it Doctor Ruddy Wells (THE SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN) who did your procedure on your Bionic eye?;)

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Paty » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:19 pm

:magneto
LOL...not quite a bionic eye yet...just a lens..LOL

Marvel doesn't WANT to return to sanity. the youngsters there cannot write well enough to do that. This is why every time chris Claremont starts to rebuild his fan base with GOOD storytelling, they yank his characters and books away from him. they cannot compete with good storytelling.
And they really don't want some old broad telling them what to do or how to fix things. Are you kiddin? first thing I would do is fire half the guys there. then I would lay down the law about screwing with the core characters. then I would have a meeting of the WRITERS AND ARTISTS... not the editors. I would talk to them and see what they really wanted to do in the way of storytelling... and I would give Claremont any characters he wanted and tell him to do his thing and rebuild marvel's X universe to where it was when Hardass came in and started teraring it down. And Magneto would be his to write until he croaked off... Chris, not Mags. there would be a few choice things established in relation to Mags that would set the characterization in such hard stone it could never be monkeyed with. and a lot of shit would be cleared away and retoconned outta continuity. If a writer couldn't tell a coherent story, he would be booted forthwith... cuz this is a STORYTELLING medium. I would bring in female and minority artists and writers. I would give Chirs Priest the books he has been begging for, aimed at young african americans and other ethnic minorities.
I would seek to expand the market for the products beyond the shrinking comic store market and go with at least some titles to stores like Walmart and other small outlets... like we had in the heyday of comics. Y'know... I have had people ask me if comic books still exist, cuz they havenn't seen one on the stands for decades! they didn't know about comic retail stores... and their kids didn't , either. When I was a kid, we found our first comic book on the stand in the neighborhood drug store... or the mom and pop store around the corner. ... or the card shop down the street that had a magazine rack. and if one store didn't have the comics you wanted, you hit the others. And comics only cost a dime at the time... so a kid could afford them with the quarter he or she had in their pocket.

So, OK... we arennn't going back to the day of the quarter comic book... but quite frankly, I would rather see a reductionin paper quality to ...say... Baxter grade and a corresponding reduction in price... cuz I don't see many stories worth paying three dollars for twenty pages. and I would go back to real comic book coloring, too... with the monochrome panel here and there for special effect ...wherre warranted... but real color throughout the book. I hate the coloring I am seeing in the books these days. A recent Batman had the first three or four pages in shades of red and pink... for no good reason. It wasn't the inside of a sub in 'battle stations" mode. That's where you get red lighting effects!!! Not the top of a building at night!!! I totally hate all pink and beige pages. I dislike intensly monochromes of blue, violet or pink!!! this is a four color medium! With HAND seperation, we had sixty four viable colors to play with inside the books.. and that number was regulated by the ink absorption quality of the newsprint. With better paper and laser scanning or computer coloring,you have thousands of colors... so why in the world is soloring limited any more to shades of pastel blue, pink and brown??? someone needs lessons in comic book coloring as well as how to goose a computer program to "color" a book.

but I digress... I think quesasda is beginning to actually get a handle on being an editor in chief... but he has gotta take in the whole picture here and quit catering to every asswipe idea his poker buddies throw out. He's gotta start protecting the characters and their core personalities...and until he can do this, he isn't doing his job... not well, anyway. I think he could... but he's gotta stop listening to his cronies and the internet.
DC comics, I am told, has told it's editors and writers not to listen to nor get involved in the internet discussions regarding their books. Now, you cannot keep a person from expressing their views on their own boards or websites... but as a general rule with the major forums, I think this is a good idea. Hopefully, the management and upper editorial will not be affected by the internet, nor allow the internet bulies who take over boards to set the policy the management must ste for it's own company.
Marvel listens toomuch to these children babbling and pushing the limits on the net. Until they can break away from the search for the quick buck by appeasing these people and go back to just telling good stories, they will continue to decline.
A case in point is the removal of Claremont from Uncanny. when Chris took over the book, it was tenth inthe ratings. It took him a while to get his feet under him, but within a moderate while, he had moved it up from tenth place, where it had languished for quite a while... toninth place. About the time Marvel yanked it away fromhim, the figures came in for that month and Uncanny was in SEVENTH place... an upward jump of two places!!! And they took it AWAY from hin??!!! Pure insanity!!! You do NOT screw with a wwinning team of writer and artist who are building a GROWING fanbase and bringing the book they work on UP inthe ratings!!! You just do NOT!. It is stupid.. it is crazy! It is favoritism and jealousy... that's what it is, cuz ther is no other reason for it... especially when the writer himself posted on a major board that he had no warning and he and his artist were busy planning storylines for the next two years!!!! Yeah... Claremont does plan that far ahead... rahter unique in today's scenerio of spur of the moment 'BRILLIANT" ideas, which usually aren't... and have to be "fixed" later. Witness the last several big summer pushes..sigh.

Anyway, the last thing these young boy yoyos wants is some feisty old broad telling their godlike majesties how to "fix" their messes. Even if I am right...

Paty
:magneto
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by SamKarns » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:51 pm

What are your thought on late books? Marvel recently hired J. Scott Campbell, a man who's notorious in producing late books GEN-13--DANGERGIRL--and WILDSIDERZ--a series which was originally an on going series in July 2005 until the second issue which WAS late came out in Nov. 2005 and became a limited series and the third issue was slated for April 26, 2006 and I'm still waiting, to illustrate a Spider-Man title.

His stint will begin during the release of Spider-Man 3. I fear with his track record the fifth issue of his Spider title may come during the release of... SPIDER-MAN 4!

Please chime in, Paty and Dave?





[Edited on 3/8/06 by SamKarns]

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Dark Bamf » Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Don't try to get me involved in this donnybrook. Paty's eyesight may be more limited than mine, but she has her CCTV to help her read. I have to settle for a bright light and a hand-held magnifying glass, and it ain't fun, believe me. Except for keeping up with 'Strangers in Paradise', it's been a couple years since I read a comic book.

:bamf

[Edited on 4-8-2006 by Dark Bamf]
'I'm in love, I'm in love with Atilla the Hun--
Atilla the Hun, Atilla the Hun.
He may pillage your village and kill everyone
but I still love Atilla the Hun.'
--Atilla's Hunny

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Paty » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:42 pm

:magneto
Heh...
Paty does not use the CCTV to read with. It would drive me nutz! You can only see a small area with it...so i eschewed using it to read practically from the get go. Paty reads with one eye and a seventeen and a half power lens. Fortunately this lens is set into my glasses, so I can read fairlly well with it and a strong light. didn't start out that way, though... I needed even more magnification at first... but I have persevered and am teaching the eyes to see again, so I can usually read comics at this point. Of course if they gt artsy fartsy with the graphics and put yellow lettering on orange backgroaunds, I can't read THAT!!! we used to try to make sure everyone could read the captions and word baloons...but today's lettering designers don't seem to have ben told"make it so everyone, even the visually impaired, can read this print!!!" so they don't think of it. consequently you have black lettering on red backgrounds...guaranteed to make it hard for the visually impaired and the color blind. You have yellow on orange and medium blue on light blue lettering or white on pale blue.. guaranteed to give the visually impaired fits! I don't even TRY to read that shit! visual impairment wants high contrast and legible lettering... some of these fancy scripts ..italics and such are impossible to decipher, too, even if the contrast is high...like white on black or black on white.
There are a lot of things that used to be taught to new people coming in...like legible lettering... that don't seem to be taught any more. I guess style is preferred to legibility these days. Nobody reads the stories, anyway...they just look at the pretty pinups...

I do not know the person you mentioned... but lateness... especially in artists... seems to be a chronic problem...no matter which age you are talking about. Dave, himself, was leendary in his lateness..surpassed only by Neal Adams who was never on time from what I have heard. Truely a kKING among kings in the lateness department...LOL... these guys gave you QUALITY...not quantity...LOL...then you had people like John Byrne, who scribbled out reams and reams monthly of saturday morning cartoon style art with no backgrounds... and sometimes no picture at all...remember the fight between snowbird and sasquach in a blinding blizzard? or the totally black pages with Namor in the total darkness of the sea floor? Logical...realistic...but BORING!!! And he got paid full page rate for that kind of shit!
OK... so if I were the editor on this yoyo, I would insist at least half of his stories be "in the drawer" that is, finished and ready to print... before even launching his run in the series. If a creator is known to be chronically late, you have to plan guest shots around his schecule...or lack therof...and youhave to sit on his face and fart when he is late with the pages! Whatchu bet this DOESN'T happen if this kid is a BIG STAR! PTUI!
sometimes all youneed to whip a writer or artist into shape is a strong editor... but marvel doesn't have any such that I can see, or Planet X would never have seen print... so this looks like a reciipe for disaster from the get go.

I hope they know what they are doing... but I would be willing to put money on it that they don't!!!

Paty
:magneto
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by SamKarns » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:35 am

Sometimes I think a stiff punishment would help. When artist are late? They don't get paid or a reduce in salary.

How was the industry when you first got hired? I do remember reading your wonderful story of a blizzard and you sweet talked Stan Leiber to come into office along with you. What book did you like during the time?

I've heard Professor X was different during those good ol' days and then he was changed. He was killed and he resurrected? Wolverine was not crazy but a hired gun to stop the HULK.

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Post by Paty » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:15 am

:magneto
LOL
I didn't sweet talk Stan... He wouldn't beileve it was me... so I told him to come in and see...he was only about three blocks away...and then I hung up on him. Of course, if he had though about it, I was probably the only female there who had the balls to hang up on him...LOL But, yes, he did drag his sorry butt in, take one look at me, drop his jaw and just stand there staring. When he finally picked his jaw up from the floor and turned to go back home I upbraided him with the fact that he was there.. wasn't just a pretty face and if he had work to do... "Well, go DO it , man!!!"
which he did...
At that time I was heavily into Avengers and the budding relationship between Wanda and the Vision. For me, the interpresonal relationships between the characters... rather than their conflicts... were what the stories were all about... just like the interpersonal relationships between the cast on Star Trek superceeded all the BEMs they had to deal with on a weekly basis.

Professor X was supposedly, from the get go, a benevolent, kindly professor type with scads of money and an estate he wanted to turn into a haven and school for mutant youngsters. He was always in their heads, though... the floating , talking head...OK... so how else are you gonna show psychic connection and communication... but that very fact creeped me... and a lot of other people... out. I have talked to others who thought the fact that he would barge right into these kid's heads without so much as a by your leave to be the most horrivle invasion of personal privacy extant. the only place a kid has to really call his own as he or she is growing, is inside their own head. That's it. Everything elsse in their existance is controlled by adults....so this invasion was particularly odious to me... even if he was telling the truth about not prying... cuz i just didn't believe it. Dave bought it cuz he wanted to believe in a benevolent father figure... but I never did. We really disagree on chuckie... and I still say those kids behaved like model kids, doing their homework and being respectful of Chuckie's authority simply because he would give them an occasional very subliminal mental nudge. ".. be quiet... do your homework...Jean, a cup of tea would be nice...
As a parent, there were times when I would grit my teath and say to myself"shut up, kid... just shut up!!!" and I am sure chuckie did the same... but the only difference is that Chas had the wherewithal to make the kid do it.. even if it wasn't intentional and ws subliminal. I am sure he stil did it... and I found that far more creepy than Magneto's upfront antagonism and arrogant bullying... of the time.
Later, of course, Claremont gave Mags a bckstory that explained his craziness of those days. He used a specific point in time to be the catylist for the change he wanted to introduce when he made Magneto a more sane and interesting character rather than just the cookie cutter villain that Stan had made him. Stan actually lauded Chris for doing this and said he wished he had thought of doing something like it. Magneto was so much more interesting a character being a considered adversary rather than just a crazy villain. I find the wole psychological convolutions of the Claremont Magneto to be the most interesting thing in comics today... and they won't let him develop that aspect of Magneto ... cuz they simply are afraid of the character... and jealous of Chris for creating him out of the bare bones of Stan's personification.
Character development on that level is what REAL storytelling is all about... and the kids doing comics now... for the most part...just don't understand this craft. they don't want to do their apprenticeship... they want to spring into stardom, full-grown like Athena from the brow of Zeus. Brubaker, for example, after a couple of successful issues of New Gnesis is ready to steal Uncanny away from a storytelling master like Claremont??? NOT!!!!! there's favoritism and jealousy there playing a big part in the assignment...I don't care what anyone says. You do NOT change a writer/artist team on a book that is RISING in the ratings!!! Not unless you are afraid of the fan base that writer and artist are generating... and want to undermine it. That's the ONLY logical reason for that dumbass decision that i can see. .. and I know the ins and outs of the business. they can explain all they want but the bottom line is you do not fuck with a successful team!!! You just DON'T!!! For the sake of the bottom line, you WANT that growing readership!!! YOU WANT IT IN SPADES!

The only punishment that works with writers and/or artists that are chronically late is to not give them work. If they do the work, late though it may be, they deserve to get paid...especially since rates for pages suck moose..sideways... with a straw! Or used to... I know in the seventies, starting page rate was fifteen dollars per page for full pencils! I have no idea what it is now, but I bet new artists start at a pitifully low rate. which is why the company keeps introducing "new talent". Over the years, with successful writing and art, you gt raises in your page rate. So, as far as the business people are concerned, it is morue cost effective upfront to bring in a person and pay them fifty dollars a page rather than have an established artist getting a hundred dollars a page... or even more. Of course, certain writers and artists have followings and sometimes their higher page rate is outweighed by the amount of sales they can generate amongst the fans.
But sometimes it just comes down to office politics and jealousies and favoritism, too...and you can see this when the money factor is overridden and doesnn't make any sense... like Claremont's removal from Uncanny.

And I will not let that go. It is central to what is going on at Marvel these days. Nepotism, favoritism and stupidity reign... the books and characters suffer.

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:05 pm

Paty for EIC!! I really think you'd be able to turn Marvel around if given the chance.. I just wish someone at Marvel would listen to you
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Post by Paty » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:52 pm

:magneto
Unlike some we really have to watch out for...and Quesada really should watch out for... I don't want the job...thank you very much.
from what I have seen of Joey, he has the personality to really handle the job if he would only stop listening to his poker buddies and use some common sense.
I am sure he went into the job cold... and is still learning the job... but he cannot afford to make such monumental booboos as Planet X, Avengers Disassemble and House of M any more. He has got to stop letting Millar lead him around by the short hairs. He has got to sit back and understand the market he is in.. a changing one, even as he thinks about it...and his responsibility for protecting the characters... for it IS his responsibility and it is paramount!
Look at Disney. they protect the characters with rules of cast iron... and those franchises bridge all age groups from the oldest to the youngest. Limiting yourself to the ages between twelve and fourteen is injudicious at best... but this jerk off age seems to be the one thay are aiming for. thirty second attention spans...sex obsessed, violence prone... yep.. that's the comics today... especially coming out of Marvel. And they are gonna lose the very lucrative older reader and female market...not tomention the ethnic market! The child editors don't care...they want it that way, it appears. But joey HAS to care.. it's his JOB!!!
Personally, I think he is getting his feet under him and learning the job... and I think he can do it...but he's gotta stop listening to the little fanboys and mindlsaves!

Besides, I don't ever want to live in NY again!!! Just the weather would kill me!
LOL
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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:51 pm

Tell me about it.. it's nearing 100 degrees here
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Post by Dark Bamf » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:14 pm

If Professor X was the sinister mind-manipulatorr that Paty believes him to be, Jean would have married him instead of Scott.

:bamf
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Post by Paty » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:39 pm

:magneto

No she wouldn't have. Xavier knew better. Back in those days you could get jailed for subverting a student or having anything to do romantically with them.. and Xavier had a front to maintain. He did have feelings for her and he knew they were totally inappropriate.... this much we know from canon.
I am not saying Xavier is evil or a dyed in the wool villain...I am just saying his prostations of non involvement in the minds of the kids and others isn't as clean as he wants us to believe. Him going into their heads without so much as a by y'r leave always creeped me out. I think he influenced Storm subliminally, and many of the other X folk. Maybe he didn't mean to... but Logan was always telling him "Get outta my HEAD, Chuck!" and this speaks volumes to me. if he was prying into Logan, how much was he in the heads of kids who had no natural defense against his invasion? and did he even consider it an invasion?
I mean... a simple nudge...do your homework... be quiet...insured the tranquility you saw in that early school...and it is so logical for him to have done that. How many times have you said to yourself when a kid is being a pest."Please go away!!! and be quiet!"? How many times have you wanted the little rat to "sit down and shut up!"? Xavier, with a thought, could make it happen...and tranquility would reign again. Mags didn't have that kind of control over the kids and when Xavier was across the galaxy, the kids acted like regular, rebellious teens... and nearly drove him crazy again! LOL

No one will win this one, of course. There are a lot of fans out there who want to believe in Xavier as next to a saint... or at least a benevolent father figure. there are also a lot of fans, mostly women in my experience, who are creeped out by him as a controlling semi bastard. I think it may have something to do with how you view father figures and dominance issues... both of which have to do with Xavier.
Xavier had to be the dominant one. Mags was willing to try it his way, but Xavier never gave Magneto even a small piece of reciprocation to even consider magneto's point of view. the whole thing is dominance and Xavier comes out as the unbending one, here.
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Post by Paty » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:43 pm

:magneto
You in NY, BD? goddess help you! It is hot down here... sometimes stiflingly so this week... but i can only imagine what the concrete canyos are like. You got humidity being right on the ocean, too, and although the ocean usually moderates the temps a bit, it also puts high humidity in the air... which shoots the ol' heat index right up there.

No, I was talking about the winters. I can deal with the summers... but the winters up in the Catskills did both Dave and me in. If we had stayed any longer i believe we would both be dead by now...it was that bad.

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Post by SamKarns » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:35 am

I think of Xavier as a Mister Miogi to the X-Men, he tells them what needs to be done because he has a thrive for adventure and (Since he's a cripple) he wants to be a part of the adventure along with his team. For him to to that he must channel into their minds.

As for persuasion, I think Xavier has a right to advise Storm or any other member what is good for the cause--at any means necessary. These members are young and they need direction.

As for Logan, he was a wild card, Xavier needed to keep him on the right track before he would cause holy havoc.

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Post by SamKarns » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:42 am

I'm glad Storm is an interesting African character, were there other suggestion from Marvel to create more African, browned skinned, characters from the higher up? Bishop comes to mind but were there any battles that were won and many lossed?

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Post by Paty » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:56 am

:magneto
In an early bid to bring more ethnic diversity into the biz, stan created or encouraged others to create... a number of ethnically diverse characters. there was T'Challa, the Black Panther, who was an Avenger in his early years. there was the Falcon...partnered with Captain America ... who was also arican american. Iron Man had a black guy working for him who took over for Tony Stark on occasion...but I dont remember his name offhand...Rhodey? ...maybe... Dave and Chris introduced Storm as well as Thunderbird, a native american whom they promptlly killed off rather than do him wrong...since they didn't have connections for research into the amerindian tribes at the time. they regretted doing that later and sometime down the road, his Brother took up the mantle of thunderbird.... until he got his own codename. Dani Moonstar of the New Mutants was a native american, too... as was another Avenger, Red Wolf. You had Luke Cage, a forty second street black convict stud...LOL... and Shang Chi, an oriental kung fu artist, as well as Sunfire, a japanese samauri type. You had a number of villains, too ... the Mandarin, a Kang the Conqueror rip off...LOL...and the white gorilla from Wakanda. You also had aliens of all shades of hte rainbow... too many to count...LOL
Doom was a gypsy and Magneto was a jewish holocaust survivor and Kitty Pryde as well as Ben Grimm, the Thing, was jewish as well. does orange count as a "person of color"? LOL...
I am sure I missed a whole bunch of them but these were major stars in their own right in the early years at Marvel. Lately I have lost track of most all the books except the X books... and those I follow to keep track of the Magster.

I dunno.. maybe you would be OK with someone getting into your head and nudging youinto joining his merrie band and risking your life for people who hate and fear you... but I sure wouldn't want my path in life to be so coerced. If I found out someone did that, I woud seek them out and killthem. I don't care what their reasoning was! that is the kind of thing Chas avowed he had not done.. but my bet is that he had indeed... and that is heinous.. a rape of the psyche, no matter how gentle it is. done without the knowledge or permission of the person, it is still rape of the mind... and not to be tolerated.
A benevolent? form of slavery? Is there such a thing? Slavery is slavery whether it is of the mind or of the body. In the third movie, Magneto upbraided Charles for his tyrannic takeover of jean's mind... and rightly so. At that point I was very gratified to see Charles' controlling nature displayed for all to ponder. When I saw it, I said"Finally! we see what a controlling bastard Xavier can be!" Dave begged to differ with me... but then it wasn't a guy's brain being monkeyed with , was it? And we get right back into the old ploy of women not being able to control great power...yawn.....riiiiiiiiiiight! same ol'... same ol'...

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Post by SamKarns » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:30 am

You could make the same input to why we dress the way we do and why we're inspired to do things. It was inspired from someplace-- and besides it's only a crime if they are brainwashed in doing things that are evil and pursuade to use their abilities to take advantage of people.

Psyche Rape? Very possible. Xavier has good reasons to do this because he can't allow kids, with these extraterrestrial abilities, to become monsters. It would only hurt his cause to prevent the fear of mutants.

What were your thoughts of Bobby Drake and how he was treated then?

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Post by Paty » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:03 pm

:magneto
In the early books? or the later books? or the movie? bobby has been the perennial teen. He was the one who was always the wiseass and if anyone was gonna get into trouble it was him, I think. even today, in the books, he can be a smart mouth and a dissenter. But this dissention, instead of blossoming naturally into open rebellion against the prof's rather rigid dictates, just peters out in "foolin' around" and he is not to be taken seriously. I think, as he matures in the books this personna is beginning to grate on him, as the others of the original team simply do not take him seriously as an adult... which he surely is by now.
I don't think Xavier had to sit too hard on Scott. Scott was always too old for his age...too serious... too stuffy in some respects. so he didn't need sitting on. Henry, even at his most gregarious was the quinessential nerd/intellectual and probably didn't need much nudging, either. Bobby would have needed he most subtle"go do your homework and be quiet" kind of nudging. But Xavier did most of his subliminal shit with jean. she was the one he had feelings for and he kept her close and virtually made her his confidante and right hand girl. The fact that he was trying to "help" her with HER telepathic abilities...her telekinesis...was the obvious ploy for them to be close. You know, the old birds of a feather...

But to my mind, I always had the feeling he was holding her back and keeping her down or contained or manipulated. It was just a gut suspicion. then in the movieverse.. which is, of course, parallel to the books but not entirely the same... we see that the logical thing was that she had the budding phoenix pwoer all the time and Charles knew it and supressed it...instead of telling her about it and working with her to gain control over it as it... and she... manifested. The movie makes total retroactive sense and explains a lot of crap the books do not... or don't want to.
there are threads and storylines in the books to indicate that Charles had worked with jean before we see her show up on his doorstep as a "student". Back story as it were...because the relationship between Xavier and Jean was too cozy from the beginning. Why would a teen age girl go to an ...up till then.. all male enclave? No parent in their right mind would send their teenage daughter into a school where there were no other females... and we never saw any other staff or females in that school...especially in the early days. It was like a family home situation.. but it WASN'T a family home situation. Yes, kids go away to co ed schools... but those schools have rigourously separate girls and boys facilities cuz teens are not to be rusted with hormones raging. Jean's whole ambience in the early books was sister/mother/private seretary to Xavier and the guys. Oh, yeah... and go on missions, too... between doing the dishes, bringing Xavier his tea and plotting with him to keep his secrets... even from the other members of the group.
I am sorry, from a female point of view, it was just not a healthy or kosher environment in that early school. I would not have let my girlchild go there with no female chaperones. so were Jean Gray's parents coerced into letting their teen girl go to a basically guy's academy at the time? Sure looks like it to me...

then we come to the recruitment of ADULTS! Storm had no reason to leave her adopted people in Africa to drought and possible starvation. she was stabilizing the weather patterns to help them survive. What happened to them afer she left? did she ever take a backward look? Well, yes she did. she made at least one, and possibly more, journies back there...and it was on one of these that she wondered if Charles had manipulated her mind to follow him instead of staaying with these folk and helping them. At least they appreciated her... Of course, maybe she was just bored with being a "goddess"...right...
Moira McTaggart... another manipulated female who ..retroactively, of course... was found to have a whole genetics facility on Muir Island. What the hell was she doing turning up on Xavier's doorstep to be a HOUSEKEEPER???!!! this was a brilliant geneticist! she had a son by Xavier that needed help and attention... so... she turns up as a housekeeper??? Ahhh but Charles had his hooks in her and when he wanted or needed her, no matter what she had on the stove, it was put on the back burner and she came running.. and I postulate it was because she had no choice. He mentally said "come" and she came... to hell with everything else... including her responsibilities to a wildly out of control child... whom we found out about much later.
OK...so this is writers mucking up and convoluting the storyline...but if you try to make some sense of it all, it all goes back to Chuck and his manipulation of people via his telepathy... and then it DOES make sense. All of it. It is amazing how it makes sense. When something doesn't make sense, you gotta lood for the factor tha DOES make sense... that makes the whole scenerio work. and so much goes right back on silken threads to Charles. the manipulation factor makes sense of a lot of things that on the surface have no ulterior motives. A girl teen in a boy's school...sure... a goddess leaving her people to starve...sure... a national treasure and asset being wisked right out of the heart of the Soviet Union in the height of the cold war when even cultural exchanges were heavily guarded so the people wouldn't defect...riiiiiiiiiiiiight. C'mon... doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the mental manipulation here... cuz that's the only way some of this stuff could have logically happened!
and I don't care what Xavier's motives were. He's not god and he has no right to play with someone .. anyone... as if he was god! Just because he CAN is no excuse. If a bully knocks you down, and steals your money and beats you up is it OK for him to do that just because he CAN??? Is it OK for a doctor to do a surgical proceedure on you just because he CAN.. even if it would be beneficial to you? No. you have to give consent. But with telepathic interference, who is to say whether that consent is freely given or "nudged". And there's the rub. We have only charles' word for his honor. And I simply don't believe him. Initially it was a gut feeling... but over the years, the case has built in canon for massive manipulation by dear old benevolent chuckie.
I don't care if what he is doing is for the good of mankind or the society or anything else. Osama Bin Laden did what he did for the "good " of his society...he thought! In his own mind and the minds of his followers, he is not a terrorist villain...he is a herioc religious jihad fighter and savior of the arabic way of life! Archaic and anachronistic as it may be...the boys have it GOOD there and they don't want their little applecart upset. there's always a good excuse for doing what you WANT to do...even if ithers suffer... and if the suffering isn't massive or overt, then who is to say it is there at all? Maybe it is...maybe it isn't. depends a lot on your point of view.
But I digress...
Bobby was the type to get waaaaaaaay outta control in the original group but he didn't. His own good sense or did Xavier sit on him and control his excesses? Good question. I'm betting the latter, cuz as he has grown away from Xavier's control, he has still exhibited the lack of control and juvenile mentality that would have made him a much more boistrous teen than he was shown to be, but logically his behavioral patterns would indicate he WOULD be.

I guess the whole problem comes when you take comic characters who arenn't real... nor are their situations real... and try to make them as real as possible...searching for real reactions, motivations , etc... While this makes it easier to identify with them and makes them more interesting characters, you do have to deal with and explain anomalies in behavior pattrns, social anomalies and such. If you just want the characters to be a good, superfical shallow read, fine...you don't worry about the subliminal and convoluted possibilities. But if these characters are REAL people to you... and you want them to act and react like real people, then you have to go digging for the anomalies or your suspension of disbelief goes byebye. We can "wink" at the existance of mutant powers but the rest has to have a modicum of reality that would fit into the world as we know it. so all the behavioral stuff and scenerio anomalies comes under scrutiny and has to be explained... at least in some fan's minds. which is where you get heated debates on the net and wild and often very good fan fiction... explaining what the "pros" haven't explained or probably haven't even thought of.
Most of the writers of today don't do their research. They think they can write just anything... but they can't... cuz there ARE fans out there who will call them on canonical error, scientific error, historical and social error...the whole magilla. The writers used to have the honor to admit when they made a mistake...today they just gloss over it and say"we'll fix that.." and then proceed to warp the science, history or social situation to "fix " it. Which means it is not fixed at all but merely painted over and will blister and peel if someone tries to use it later.
It is a whole convoluted mish mosh and getting murkier by the moment... and no one is "fixing" anything. they are only digging them selves in deeper and deeper shit.
I don't wanna be around when the outhouse explodes...it ain't gonna be pretty!

Paty
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Post by Dark Bamf » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:52 am

I will admit that Xavier 'noodged' Kitty Pryde's parents into letting her go to tge school. itty's father was angry about something, and Xavier tweaked him into calming down. I don't really agree that he manipulated Storm, but it's possible. Maybe he did manipulate Colossus--a young Soviet with supowers would almost certainly offer them to the State, if he wasn't already found out and recruited. As for Thunderbird--in this case, he more shamed John Proudstar into joining up, rather than mind-manipulating him. 'Oh, I guess you're not UP to the challenge, huh, Innjun'? (He didn't put it that crudely).

So ok, he does sometimes use the noodge, and maybe he shouldn't. But I still believe he's basically bemevolent.

Oh, and Moira MacTaggart showing up as a housekeeper and charging out with a machine gun wasn't Xavier's doing--that was PURE Chris Claremont! :LOL

So there..

:bamf

[Edited on 6-8-2006 by Dark Bamf]
'I'm in love, I'm in love with Atilla the Hun--
Atilla the Hun, Atilla the Hun.
He may pillage your village and kill everyone
but I still love Atilla the Hun.'
--Atilla's Hunny

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