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Cool BATMAN pencil art - by Dave or Paty ?

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:57 pm
by emblemcomics
Hi guys & gals,

I need some Cockrum experts help and I think this group
is the right place to solve this little mystery:

The following nice sketch of Batman & Ra's Al Ghul was
drawn on the back side of a cool Dave Cockrum / Mike DeCarlo
BATMAN page I own.

Front side page:

Back side sketch:

I'd never seen Dave's take on Ra's Al Ghul, so I can't really tell
what it should look like. The sketch doesn't look like the usual
Dave Cockrum style, but you could probably say the same about the front page.

So help me figure out - who drew this sketch ?

Dave ? Paty ? Someone else ?

For sure it wasn't the inker Mike DeCarlo (I'd asked Mike about it).

Thanks for your help,

Cool BATMAN pencil art - by Dave or Paty ?

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:56 pm
by Ult_Sm86
I'm far from a professional, and nothing close to an expert, but it looks most like Paty's style.

That said, I can't guarantee it's either. PirateKurt or one of Paty's actual friends might be able to answer.

Re: Cool BATMAN pencil art - by Dave or Paty ?

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:49 am
by PirateKurt
I just sent this to Paty and we verified, that yes indeed it is her sketching ras al ghul (spl) on the back, Obviously she and Dave were talking Batman at the time and they loved to put suprise sketches on the back (An old tradition at classic marvel that John Buscema started I think, but others did too. I have seen many back page treasures while over at Paty's in Dave's art, this is a very unique piece, If you want to mail it to her to sighn, u2u me and I will send you her address privately for her to sign it, Good find!:D

Re: Cool BATMAN pencil art - by Dave or Paty ?

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:02 pm
by Paty
Yep... my art...LOL...
that didn't happen too often, I think... in fact, it may be the one and only time I drew on the back of one of Dave's pages. And yes, the front IS dave's art.
I liked the Neal Adams Ras...he was intriguing... a very complex character... and I simply love complex characters. I think a lot of writers are intimidated by complex characters... they are actually afraid of them because they know they cannot write them with the depth and subtle innuendo that such characters demand. To cope with them, they turn them into cookie cutter heroes or villains they CAN cope wtih. How a writer will treat a complex character will tell you more about that writer's skills AS a writer than anything else they do. And as a writer grows in ability, the good ones seek out the complex characters to play with... cuz they are the most fun to write... at least if you are a competent writer.
I loved what Neal Adams did with the characte r art-wise...and that particular pencil drawing smacks of Neal Adams influence... at least to me...LOL...Ras, drawn by Neal, had flair and panache! A totally interesting "bad boy" with motives and style that, like Mags, set him above the common "villain" into the realm of "adversary"...with points of view that require further consideration than just a dismissive "oh, he's a bad guy..."
sometimes the good guys can have points of view that are as warped as the points of view of the "bad guys". Magneto's view of "you don't bargain for your survival from a position of weakness, or servitude" is far more viable than Xavier's pie in the sky "let's all live in harmony" stuff... cuz you know that ain't happening as long as the human upright ape exists in it's present unevolved form. Might makes right has always ruled and from what I can see, we may talk about living in harmony, but the one with the biggest arsenal still rules. You don't get attacked for your resources if others respect that you can destroy them. It is just human nature...that hasn't changed in the millenia we have been on the planet. sorry that is how it is... but... that IS how it is...
in any event... yeah... it is my art, and as Pirate Kurt says, if you want it signed, I will be happy to do so... I hope to be at two cons this year...if you don't want to entrust it to the mail... X Con in Myrtle Beach SC May 18, 19, 20 and Heroes Con in charolette, NC... whose date I don't know yet...LOL but will post as soon as I do...OK?


Re: Cool BATMAN pencil art - by Dave or Paty ?

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:04 pm
by emblemcomics
Hi Paty,

Thank you for solving my little mystery !

I'm very honored to own an original artwork that you did.
I think you did a beautiful job on these characters, just as Dave did on the other side of the page.

I've now opened a "proper" section in my online gallery to display the art, with the correct credits:

Thank you for your insight about Ra's Al Ghul. To be truthful, I got tired of that villain
for the reasons you mention: writers don't "get" him, as he's too complex for simplistic,
"by the numbers" plot lines.

I actually think that what was done with him in BATMAN BEGINS was atrocious !

You've probably discussed it on another thread/forum... but I'm curious if you liked the depiction
of Mags in the FIRST CLASS movie ?

Re: Cool BATMAN pencil art - by Dave or Paty ?

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:27 pm
by Paty
hmmm... I thought it was interesting. Of course, the movies have nothing to do with the books except that they are using the same ...sorta... characters...
Theoretically they do, of course, but the movie people do change book canon as they please ... soooo...
I thought the development of the character within the movieverse was logical... at least to a degree... and I LOVED that in the last scene, they gave him his "COLORS' as well as his name.
And I know the dictum came down that the book characters were to be kept as close to the movieverse as possible... some years ago, actually...I cannot see how that has changed since disney took over. Movies having a much larger audience than the books, it seems that now the tail is wagging the dog...
In regular canon, Magneto picked up his name somewhere between the Israeli -set backstory in Uncanny 161 which Chris and Dave did, and the first XMen number one, which Stan and Kirby did. 161 basically established Xavier's and Magneto's first meeting. The movies built on that, establishing Magneto as the co builder of the academy ... or at least Cerebro/a ... and the movies depiction of their friendship has been woven into canon... which is ok, since it covers years not depicted. .. and sort of enriches the characterization of the two characters and their relationship. It gives rise to speculation of who is controlling who ... or what... in this storyline.
I do think that they are leaning towards making Magneto a less sympathetic character but in reality, I have observed people walking out of all of the X movies saying "that magneto guy is right!!!" which is very interesting to me, LOL... as I concur.
My problem is... and has always been... that Professor X creeps me out and I do not think he is the angelic father figure he has been portrayed as in the books. They do explore this in the movies to a degree when they show him forcibly dampening Jean Grey's powers... and magneto objecting. I have always objected to the intrusion into the minds of the children on all fronts... especially in the early books. It was creepy. the only place a kid...especially a teenager... has that is really his or hers, is their minds. That's their sanctum sanctorum. And Xavier went willy nilly into them at any of his whims. We have only his word that he didn't violate their central thoughts... but those kids never acted like real teens. Teens are unruly, rebellious to many different degrees... some more some less. These kids were so freakin' well behaved it was pathetic. It bespeaks a mind control. Kids are cutting up as teens will do, ...?... noise level is rising... just a quick thought directing them back to quiet harm no foul? well, to a degree...the wish of every parent of teens in the county, if not the world. I want a cup of tea but don't feel like wheeling down into the kitchen to get it... a quick thought to jean that"gee I bet the prof would like a cup of tea..." and bingo, no real harm... no foul? Where does no harm, no foul stop and a subtle slavery begin? and did the prof cross that line? I think he did... maybe not viciously, but he did anyway.
I used to have this discussion with dave ...often. He wanted to think of the prof as a good father figure... and I thought of him as a sneaky, albeit good intentioned, dictator. If you don't realize something is happening, does that make it not happening? No it does not. It just means the perp is getting away with it.
Now, Magneto, by virtue of his power, had to have some modicum of telepathy... after all, every single thing our bodies do or think is controlled by electromagnetic signals. But Mags control went to large fluxes, whereas Xavier's went to fine control of electromagnetic brain activity. Magneto controld HUGE power fluxes of the earth, and, as I explained to then X group editor, Bob Harass, the electromagnetic fluxes of the sun... which I believe Moira dMacTaggart opened him up to by "fixing" the genetic bottleneck he inherited... which caused him to go nutsy fagan every time he overused his power. she opened the floodgates of his power and he still hasn't really dealt with that yet...although creating a wormhole to rescue Wanda has got to give him an inkling of what is possible.
To get back to your question, I was not unpleased by the depiction of Magneto in that movie and I positively stood up and cheered at eh end when Mags appeared in his colors and said "I prefer...Magneto!"
... and, of course, it put to rest the pronunciation of his name... which has always been a big thing for a lot of fans out there...LOL