What's the Beef with Claremont??

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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by stupidusername »

Did I miss something? Why do so many people have a problem with Chris Claremont's writing? Is it because it is not "dark" enough with "gritty" problems or is it something else? I enjoyed his older stuff with X-men and when he came back for the whole "X-men:The New Age", I loved it. All the characters were protrayed the way I thought they should be, the plots were interesting, and it reminded me of the good stuff from years past. I like feel-good stories. So why all the distain? As a fellow comic-reader and fan of Nightcrawler, I have to ask: why are so many people here at 'scrawlers so down on Claremont?
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by idsunki »

I'm not down on Claremont. I'm sure he's a gentleman and I wish him all the best. He did great things for the X-Men and helped make them into the huge deal they are today.

However, his writing is bad. Really bad. Over-exposition, no difference in character dialogue except for accents/foreign languages (I mean honestly, would Sabretooth, even AoA Sabretooth, ever say something like "We're dealing with stuff beyond the limits of imagination pup!"? No.), and ignoring any continuity he didn't come up with does not strike me as a good writer.

His story ideas are usually very cool, but his execution leaves plenty to be desired.

That said, if you enjoy his work, good on ya! Keep buying and reading anything he writes, continue to defend his work against those who would detract it. Just keep it as civil as you have been so far, and everything will be okay.
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

It's all personal opinion. I don't like his style. I think it's dated, and he tends to date himself constantly in his books. Also, he doesn't always follow other writers continuity when he writes, and tends to use his own elements over the elements which have proven to be important to the book he's writing. At least, this is what I have noticed as of late (especially).

I could go on and on, but I've been all over this on Xfan and its tiring me out :P. Lets just say that for me, the straw that broke the camel's back was Nocturne. he destroyed her. Absolutely destroyed. And it's terribly depressing, as she was SUCH an amazing character before hand. What made it so irritating was that it showed he most likely did not do any research before writing her. He didn't read Exiles, and he had no idea who she was. Unless he did all that and is really that bad of a writer, which I don't believe.

I think what it comes down to, is Claremont's writing does not mesh with where comics are right now. I mean, like Id said, if you like him that's great. There's certainly plenty of stuff out there for you to read. And for those of us who don't like him, there's also plenty of stuff to read that he isn't writing.

Unless you're a Nocturne fan :bawl (Or a Dazzler or Exiles fan :P)
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

His characters lack depth. So, if a friend dies they are sad. And if they see someone they like kissing someone else they feel rejected. All this is very obvious, and it's as far as it goes. They might as well all be the same character.

This was revolutionary back in the day when people didn't talk about feelings at all in comics, but now that there are so many writers who can think of alternative reactions this simplistic emotional style just doesn't cut it. The coolest plot in the world can't hold up if the characters don't react to the situation like real people.

So another vote for "bad" and "outdated".
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by Saint Kurt »

I don't feel that I have so much as a "beef" with Claremont as I'm just not seeing the magic anymore.

I completely loved Excalibur - especially when Claremont and Davis were paired. And I know I wasn't the only one on this site who wasn't completely excited to see them together again on Uncanny.

Except, then Davis kind of drew exactly how he drew stuff 20 years ago and Claremont wrote stories that were continuations of stories he wrote 20 years ago except that they weren't as fun. I don't have a problem with Claremont except that I didn't like his recent work.

I think that's what you're going to find here. We all have a lot of respect for him as an author, but his new stuff just isn't turning us on. It happens. It's a bummer. I know I want those fun old Excalibur days back...

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What's the Beef with Claremont??

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Thanks, people. That makes sense. As for me, I stopped reading X-Men for a long while and really only got back for the Claremont run. So maybe I didn't see how it all changed and Claremont didn't. So... outdated, huh? Makes sense, I guess. I would say it was more "Classic", but old is old. What may be stale to you was actually comforting for me. The idea that Kurt, Logan, and Storm were exactly like I remembered them from days past, was reassuring, but well, as you say, to each their own. If Claremont is an example of old school staying old, who are the good writers out there? The Anti-Claremonts? Is it Brubaker? So far, he is irritating me. The whole Vulcan/Shiar storyline is a waste of good art. and Kurt. He has taken 6 comics to just set up the plot. Bamfs per comic-1 or 2 if we're lucky. But Tan is a great artist. He fricking rocks! I just wish the plot was better. The artist and writer over in X-men is quite good, filled with some decent moments. (Like Mystique playing Xavier to Valerie)
I guess what I am wondering is who you guys think are the better writers out there and when were their runs?
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Whedon is pretty great in Astonishing. I like Vaughan, but he's not on any Xbooks right now. Are you looking for Xwriters?
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by stupidusername
Is it Brubaker? So far, he is irritating me. The whole Vulcan/Shiar storyline is a waste of good art. and Kurt. He has taken 6 comics to just set up the plot. Bamfs per comic-1 or 2 if we're lucky.
Brubaker is the only writer I know who can effectively combine the classic style with modern storytelling. I'm not enjoying the current story either (I blame the fact that it's in outer space) but if you want to see something of his that I thought was great, try the recent X-Men Deadly Genesis series.
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by stupidusername »

Didn't Brubaker do the Captain America "Winter Soldier" stories? Now, that some good writing. But yeah, Drastic, I was talking X-writers. I want to see what I missed during my "absence."

and I think Wheldon rocks!
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by stupidusername
I want to see what I missed during my "absence."
Not much.

I'm inclined to say if you'll like Claremont you'll like anything. Might have a problem with Austen's run (I hated it) and Morrison's run (I loved it) because the characters are all "different" from the classic versions.

Have you read the recentish Nightcrawler series (technically not a mini though it was canceled at #12 anyway)? NOT the idiotic slave trade thing (2001), the one with art by Darick Robertson (2004).
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

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No, Not yet. Looked for it at my local comic shop after hearing about it from y'all and it is no where to be found. It may be time to go to the Source. (The Source is another bigger comic shop in the Twin Cities) Whether they still a copy or two is debatable but someone in town must. A quest! Perhaps after work tomorrow, I'll go downtown and find it. Was it as good as people here have said or are y'all just biased because it Nightcrawler? Is it better than the Gambit series or the Rogue series? The Rogue series sucked IMO. The Art wasn't that great and the story was needlessly convaluted. And stupid. Haven't read Gambit. Or the Bishop mini earlier. Are any of these series worth the time and movie to track down. I liked the Emma Frost one, for some reason.
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I loved the nightcrawler series. It was excellently drawn and quite interesting.

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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

The Nightcrawler series was very good. Definately pick it up.

And agreed with Spaz, that Icon mini was god awful. It bored the hell out of me. But Chamber's Icon mini was GREAT!
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by idsunki »

Second the recommendation of the Chamber mini. Also not exactly an X-Men title, but read Runaways. There's a mutant in it, so it works. They also meet the X-Men in one issue.
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by stupidusername »

I just read the Nightcrawler TPBs. You guys were right. Except for the lack of BAMFs (for the record, I am always complaining about the lack of teleportation in books and issues that focus on Kurt. He has got to be the most underused guy in the X-world IMO) :bamf I loved everything about the book, the art and (most of) the plot. It looks like they were turning Kurt into the "reluctant supernatural investigator" and the powers that be decided to put an end to that.

Personally, I think any role that allows us to see more of Kurt is a good thing.

Chamber miniseries? When did that occur? And is any of the other X-man solo series (Bishop/Gambit/Storm-origin/??) any good?
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by stupidusername
It looks like they were turning Kurt into the "reluctant supernatural investigator" and the powers that be decided to put an end to that.
Well, I don't think they were that benevolent. You may want to browse our archives a bit; there wasn't a good reason like that behind canceling it.
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by stupidusername »

No, I have the various threads, that is what got me into the series. :) I was being generous to those who decided to cancel a good series before its time. If they didn't like the way the series was going (like I wasn't) and if it had too much demons, soulswords, and Magik (like I thought it did- I am not one of Amanda's fans; she is too much like Illyana for my taste) YOU CAN CHANGE DIRECTIONS WITHOUT CANCELING THE BOOK!!!!

There, I said it. Darick's art was good, better than I was expecting from the cover art. (on the TPBs) Obviously, the book had a fan base. We are all here. So was it economics? How much did Wolverine sell in the first year? The whole Madripoor crap series? I can't believe it did significantly better than Nightcrawler did.

And it is much harder to restart a series than just change directions. Was it too much X-titles? Is there a quota on mutants? I am assuming that Cable and Deadpool came out around this time. How is THAT book better than Nightcrawler? They give Cable an open-ended series and nip Nightcrawler before the momentum kicked in.

They also gave up on Rogue awfully fast. Was Bishop a regular series or mini-series? Gambit was a mini, I believe. Both times. So what is the "magical" formula that allows one to go from "experiment" to "staple". Yes, I know Wolverine rocks, but the early issues of Wolverine the series were not. And Cable and Deadpool break the fourth wall all the time. Is that why they are still out there? And X-man- the Nathan/Pre-Cable series? That lasted longer than I expected it would. 30/40 issues, wasn't it? Man.......

O.K. got that out of my system. I was NOT here for the "don't take away my Nightcrawler" group therapy sessions so I needed to let that out. I guess I am confused as the rest of you as to why the Nightcrawler series became the Nightcrawler mini-series.

(Personally, I think that the reason Cable is still around is because one of the editors like Quesada really likes him. I have NEVER liked Cable and will NEVER forgive him for taking over New Mutants and turning them into X-Force. I don't see what these writers and editors see in him. They keep pushing Cable on us. The only reason he is part of the Rogue strike team is to cross-sell Cable and Deadpool. There is no other reason. Lame.)

[Edited on 3/2/07 by stupidusername]
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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by fourpawsonthefloor »

I liked the latest Gambit mini as well...it was a trifle corny with the zombie bit, and the art wasn't as...crisp I suppose as I would have liked. However, I freaking LOVE Gambit so I'm probably a bit biased.

It was a very fun and humorous read. I laughed the whole time. I did love the way they portrayed him in it.

Don't even get me started on the wolverine crap. Not that I hate wolverine, but the guy is in EVERYTHING. Diversity people!

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What's the Beef with Claremont??

Post by Jolinare »

He's alright, but his storylines in essential (or uncanny, or whatever the hell it is i read) consist of:

issue one: story arch related stuff to recap after Joss Whedon's last writing stint. Some sort of monster appears and they fight it.

issue two: the x men are pottering around, Kurt is playing eeny-meeny-miny-mo with marvel girl and storm when some sort of large monster, usually a robot appears. they fight the robot for the entire issue. the end.

issue three: some sort of monster/robot/baddie appears, they fight it, they succeed. Some story arch developement appears and kurt wonders who he should pick. Joss' storyline continues, hurrah!

his writing's not bad, and i couldn't speak for anything he wrote before november of last year, but the dialogue isn't awesome and i get bored of long fight scenes, particularly when they take up the whole issue. However...kurt is in it, he both swashes and buckles and he gets a love triangle. And not only that, one of his stories starte with...a game of baseball. Kurt in short-shorts and the x-dudes doing something so mundane is refreshing and hilarious.

Apart from the long fight scenes, Claremont is also not Joss Whedon. I'm a rampant Joss fan and I've loved his characterisation, quirky wit and general being awesome since Buffy started. I can't get enough of Joss, but Kurt isn't in his story line, thus: I need the Claremont.
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