Ultimate X-Men General Discussion

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Post by kamizzi »

Wys³ane przez Nandireya
Originally posted by kamizzi
I don't know what to think about that annual...
I'm only sure about that, I want to know what Rogue saw in his head!!!!!
I'm assuming what we saw at the start...something that made him look evil even though it was beyond his control...he cried when she said he was a monster...monsters don't cry.
i know now... :scratch but that could be sth more too. rogue was in shield and she should know what could happened there... and what past like that can do with mind...
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

If what Rogue actually did see was the flashback at the beginning then Kirkman obviously forgot/didn't know she was in Weapon X. Cause that was tame stuff for Weapon X. Either it's a continuity error or something else. Like the homophobia.
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Post by kamizzi »

so, he's writing and he don't know about what?? :shakeno
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Just got caught up on everything since the annual. Kurt is in, like, every issue. Sure he's unconcious but they haven't forgotten that he's there.

I just wanted to say eeeeeeeeeeeeew. The last part of #77.... ACK. Xavier [spoiler]tells Scott that he's IN LOVE with JEAN[/spoiler]. They're finally going there! In all its icky inappropriateness. Ultimate universe is the perfect place for it. Anyone else read this? Thoughts?
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Post by kamizzi »

I've read. And the last part almost killed me. But it wasn't unexpectable for me. For last few parts I knew somehow it's going to happen.

Am I the fortune teller? ;)
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Post by stupidusername »

There, I said it. I first started thinking it when she gushed about Angel (Warren) being "a real angel" and Kurt being a "devil". (During the New Mutants arc) She is the worst kind of trailer trash. She is like Anna Nicole Smith stupid. Then she treats her team like they are a big nuisance instead of her friends and runs off with Gambit. (Favorite line- "You're not all right. You're an ungrateful little brat. Where does the girl I had to beg not to execute Sinster get off being self-righteous with anyone?" Storm to Rogue at the end of Cry Wolf arc) When Gambit gets killed and she absorbs him, she comes crawling back to the X-men. Who embrace her with open arms. Despite all that happened and the way she deserted them. Does anybody give her a hard time or glare at her a while? Nope. Not one bit. So when Kurt starts to flip out and act a little weird, does anybody even notice? No, with the exception of Peter, who knows Kurt is having trouble accepting the fact that one of his closest friends is gay. But Peter is a quiet one, too. Did he bring his concerns to the Professor? No, he kept them to himself. Kurt has been virtually ignored since Magnetic North arc. It isn't until he steals Allison from her hospital bed that they even acknowledge that he is there. Now, granted, Kurt really lost it. Nothing really justifies his behavior, from the lying and the kidnapping Allison to taking on the whole team, but there might be a kind of explanation. Maybe, while in Weapon X, Kurt was sexually abused by a man. You saw what sort of people they were, perhaps violence isn't the only way they messed Kurt up. So when Peter admits his orientation, "inner" Kurt flashes back to the time when he was abused. All that hate and rage towards his abuser comes back in a moment and suddenly he hates Peter, not because of anything Peter did, but because in Kurt's mind, man-on-man equals pain and hurt and shame. It's wrong of course and eventually Kurt will see that, but in the meanwhile, he is pretty messed up. That would explain all the X3 flashbacks and the reaction to being confronted by the entire team. Xavier messed up badly there. He should have gone there himself with only Cyclops, Wolverine and Storm. Only those three (since Jean in the medlab) have the maturity to handle this kind of situation. Bobby should have never been there, neither should have Rogue, Kitty or Peter. Peter, for all his gentleness, is a hothead. He flies off the handle with the slightest of provocation. Bobby is impetuous Kitty can't control her mouth, and Rogue is biased. Yes, biased. she has never accepted him as a person. She's never talked to him or even tried to understand his feelings. If he had taken a smaller team of mature people, Xavier could have still mindzapped him when it was apparent talking wasn't going to do it. But instead, he sends the entire team in full battle gear to stare Kurt down. Wolverine's shoulder pat is misinterpreted as a hit and suddenly it is the O.K. Corrall over there. But it is the end of that issue, with Rogue telling Kurt he is a monster on the inside as well as the outside, takes the cake. Where does SHE get off criticizing anyone? It is obvious that Kurt's meltdown gave her the excuse she needed to hold on to her initial prejudice against him because of the way he looks. To her, he is a demon. She said so back in the New Mutants arc. Insensitive, selfish, and stupid. SHE OF ALL PEOPLE should know what it is like to be alone, what intense loneliness does to you. But she doesn't, because she will not look at a situation from someone else's point of view. I wish Rogue was the one leaving and not Allison. Allison was a disgusting punk chick, but she was still an interesting character. Maybe she will cool down. Maybe she'll join Warren at Emma's school. Somehow I don't think Emma will give her the freedom Xavier has. I also would like some class scenes again. This is a school. Where is the homework? What about the classwork? None of these kids has so much as looked at a book for like 20 issues.
*Deep Breath*
Sorry about that. needed to get it off my chest. To summarize, Rogue in the regular comic universe is a deep character who realizes she is not a saint and probably never will be. She earned her place with the Xmen with hard work and persistence. I like her. Ultimate Rogue is a #$%@ (rhymes with witch) and a spoiled brat who should be slapped down every time she opens her big mouth. She doesn't know what she is talking about. Nobody has ever taken her to task for the whole Fenris/Gambit thing or her sudden departure from the team. And now, SHE's the moral center???? Give me a break. Bring back the fuzzy elf, have him return to the swashbuckling, fun-loving personality we know and love.
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Post by idsunki »

Those are some good points, but I would let the arc play out before you cast your final judgment. Just because Rogue says Kurt is a monster doesn't make it so, and with the events of last issue, maybe he won't be in a psychic coma for much longer. We'll see how it all plays out.

I would suggest, for ease of comprehension, that you put a little more spacing in your posts. That big block of text can be hard to read, so I recommend putting a double-space in between your paragraphs.

And yes, more Kurt hijacking the Danger Room and playing out Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the Rings scenarios, please.
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Post by stupidusername »

Thanks for the posting advice, idsunki. I'll try to remember that.

And it is not the current arc that makes me depise Ultimate Rogue. Consistantly, from writer to writer, she is a nasty person, especially to Kurt. May Kirkman can figure out a way to mend those bridges, but Rogue owes Kurt a HUGE apology and I, for one, will continue to think ill of her until she does.

Scenes I would like to see from Ultimate Kurt this year-
him going to one of Ali's punk concerts and leaving roses and a note of apology for his crazy behavior. And Ali kind of softening for a moment and Kurt seeing it, from a distance.
Kurt hugging Peter while tearfully apologizing for his hate.
Kurt and Logan roadtripping.
and maybe just maybe Kurt exploring Christianity as a means to deal with what he did as X3 and his recent meltdown. (redemption) I know there are those of you out there that don't like "spiritual Kurt" (probably because you are reminded of that lame "priest" plot arc)
as idsunki said, more roleplaying in the danger room, more fun.
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Post by idsunki »

That post was much easier to read, thanks!

While those scenes might be alright (I really don't see Dazzler ever forgiving Kurt in the slightest, though), I think it might take more than a year for them to be realized.

I did like one of the letters in the last issue that had some of your same complaints about Kurt, and the response gave me some hope - something along the lines of "Now why would Kirkman waste a character with such story potential as Kurt?"

So I'm taking the "wait and see" stance.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

I'm hoping that "story potential" actually means "DELICIOUS INSANITY". Bring on the crazy! Or I will totally wig out, for real.

I needs my psycho!Kurt to balance all this pussy!Kurt going around.
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Post by stupidusername »

Drastic, you can't fool me, you are just in it for the CONFLICT! ;) There are other ways to gain conflict than messing with Kurt's mind. I just hope they can heal Kurt and his place with the team. He's too good of a character (even troubled like he is) to leave in mentally induced coma.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by stupidusername
Drastic, you can't fool me, you are just in it for the CONFLICT! ;) There are other ways to gain conflict than messing with Kurt's mind. I just hope they can heal Kurt and his place with the team. He's too good of a character (even troubled like he is) to leave in mentally induced coma.
He's not in a coma any more.

He's still crazy though. Oooooh yes.

And he's never had a "place on the team" in this universe. I'm bored with his "place" in the other books so hopefully they can move him around a bit and find him a different place... like maybe somewhere other than the background.
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Post by stupidusername »

You've got a point, there, Drastic. I just didn't want him to be a psycho. I like the swashbuckling, heroic Kurt, not the moody, crazy Kurt. I haven't read the latest issues as I am a TPB (TradePaperBack) guy and not a monthly subscriber to Ultimate. Frankly, none of the Ultimate titles have been good enough to go month to month with. I wait a few months and I get a complete story arc instead of waiting for the next issue to get there.
So the last thing I read was the Magician TPB. Rogue's insensitivity is still fresh in my mind. So....Kurt's awake, is he? Did he run off? Or are they putting him on the backburner again?
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Post by kamizzi »

hey, Kurt's not awake yet!
and I think that showing him in this way (crazy boy) is more realistic. They took him to weapon-x when she was like 14 and made him do very bad things. In UXM they show a 'normal' kid- his reactions on the cruelity. Let's take a boy on his age, and think how'd he react living in terror? I think- in the same way...
Here, he's not another super hero, with super physic strenght.
Just a normal boy.

(I tried to wrote this as good as I could. I have no idea where's my dictionary :/)
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Post by Freak »

Kurt's back, and he'll have one (two?) issue(s) dedicated to only himself. That should make up for the whole 'insnae assassin' crap (at least a bit :P), right?

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/May0 ... tions.html

And I have to admit that the new dress is kinda interesting...

...oh yeah, be ready for... The Morlocks :D

[Edited on 14/2/07 by Freak]
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Post by idsunki »

Should be interesting. Good catch, Freak!
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Post by kamizzi »

:O in which part did he wake up?? haave I missed something?? ;(

and this issue will be released in may :/ (too many time to wait ;)) and just before it, guess who's going to come back? http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?book_id=6300
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Post by stupidusername »

SPOILER: He woke up during issue 1 of "Aftermath" where everybody is greiving for Xavier. Is there anybody out there who think Xavier is really dead? He probably has a clone he is going to download his psyche into or something bizarre like that. (see X-Men:The Last Stand for details :P ) This is just a way to get the team out from under his influence for a while. How many times did Xavier "die" or play dead for either the first team or the second?

EDIT: Especially with what I just read about in issue #81

I, for one, think this is an awesome idea. Get Kurt away from the rest of the team (bucha scene-stealers) and introduce the Ultimate Morlocks at the same time. The question is, will Kurt find acceptance from these underdwellers? I think probably not. But just imagine the battles. I can see it now....(BAMF! :bamf BAMF! :bamf BAMF!) Kurt should kick some major butt, if the annual was any indication. I just hope he doesn't kill anybody.

EDIT: I like the new duds. Very Errol Flynn-Pirate-like.

[Edited on 17/2/07 by stupidusername]

[Edited on 17/2/07 by stupidusername]
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Post by anamenotreserved »

New Member here, finally decided to delurk and join. We may all soon regret it. :)

SPOILER SPACE







Glad to see Kurt leave the Mansion, regardless of the circumstances. It seems to me that the X-People never really cared much about him. I could see when Xavier was alive that they would defer to their leader keeping Kurt down
since Xavier claimed to be trying to help him.

But with Xavier gone, it should have been time for them to step up and actually make an effort to help him. Leave their own little pools of self-pity for the sake of another. Get into the nitty-gritty of how non-mind controllers try to help each other.....talking, caring, help from professionals, patience, etc.

You know, have Storm drop the Miss Drama Queen/playwright thing to actually speak kindly to the guy she once meanly called a furry blue freak. She never even apologized for that even though Kurt called it the cruelty it was.

Maybe Wolverine could stay around to help somebody who is not a teenage girl............won't hold my breath on that at all! ;)

Kitty, well, she never had anything to do with Kurt in the first place so I guess it makes sense that she is happy to run off to Spidey and leave Kurt to an imposed unconscious state filled with nightmares he isn't allowed to wake up from.

Bobby never had anything to do with being a friend or enemy to Kurt and never seemed to be the sharpest tool in the drawer, so no help there.

Rogue? The one who took pride in viciously murdering a bridgeful of people, always made sure that nobody would forget that Kurt looks like a demon, got upset with Kurt because she lost her Gambit powers in the fight with him and can't be the big slut anymore.......and so decided to call him a monster while he couldn't defend himself. Yeah, another one who really gives a darn about anybody but herself.

Peter is not going to drop that how-dare-a-kidnapped-tortured-teenager-who-can't-even-go-out-in-public (like Northstar and I can) not-respect-my-sex-life thing he has going. Sorry, but I am tired of the angle that Kurt should be more accepting of what Peter DOES because Kurt has been treated badly for how he LOOKS.

Peter cares more about his pride than wanting to help a person who is obviously suffering himself to be reacting like that to gay people.

And a big part of Kurt's negative reaction to Peter's coming out seemed to be more that Kurt felt deceived. All the times that Kurt was giving his TRUTHFUL feelings of loneliness for a female friend to Peter and here was his "friend" pretending to be in the same boat or at least not being truthful that he and Kurt did not have the same problem.

Who else? Henry McCoy did not seem to be close to Kurt in his last life, so I have no hopes for the next one. Angel comes to send off Xavier and does not even ask about or visit Kurt? Does Angel now hate Kurt for what he did to Dazzler? We know that Dazzler hates Kurt now and privately called him a snarky name even when she believed he was trying to save her life.

I have not seen the complete issue yet, but in the whole houseful of people there to send off Charles, does ANYBODY even ask about Kurt? Does Emma offer to help him? Has anybody even called his family?

Scott is pretty much a lost cause when it comes to stuff like this, and is another one who never really seemed to give a hoot about Kurt one way or another.

Jean was my one hope to be a helping friend to Kurt. She helped him at Weapon X, they seemed to enjoy each other's company and she could certainly keep him from teleporting away so what would be the problem with letting Kurt wake up and speak for himself? Jean did not seem to find it therapeutic when Xavier had HER mind-zapped and locked up.

Now I read she has some power-restraint on her to keep the Phoenix thing down but I did not notice anything on her when she went to the room to keep Kurt like Terry Schiavo for the rest of his life. And if she had enough power even with the restraint bracelet to do THAT to Kurt, she certainly could help him like she did when they first met.

OK, I realize that the characters I have just dumped on have their own serious reasons for being the way they are and their own problems but doesn't it seem so odd that nobody wants to put any effort into helping Kurt?

It would be great if some future writer took the angle that a big part of Kurt's breakdown came AFTER he realized on some level that, for him, the X-Men were basically Weapon-X lite. People who kept him around for what he could do for them, not caring friends. That maybe Rogue was right and the X-Men did see Kurt as a "monster" who was welcome to risk death for their sakes but never thought for a minute that Kurt was good enough to join their mating/dating games.

Hmmmm, maybe in running away from Xavier's bunch, Kurt is running TOWARDS sanity, not going further away from it?

Maybe someday the "more passably human looking" mutants of Xavier's group will have an After School Special Issue where they realize that they have been guilty of treating some of their own kind as second class beings. Then they can apologize to Kurt! :)

Until then, Kurt should be having his own adventures, growing up, getting a little more worldly, and healing his mind by himself (or with the help of real friends). People do manage to go through horrible experiences, suffer and then learn how to tap their inner strength to heal. Kurt should not have to be "fixed" by some other mutant mucking around in his mind.

Besides, that would be the most horribly boring way to make Kurt "better" that I can think of! Do it the real-life hard way and give us months or even years of good stories! This is my hope for the Ultimate Nightcrawler. (sorry this got so long-winded)
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Post by idsunki »

Hey, don't apologize for being long-winded. And welcome! Enjoy your stay!

That's a pretty good analysis of what's going on, and some good points about Rogue especially. I think we have some hope for what's coming down the line for Kurt in the future. As I put eleven posts up, Kirkman recognizes that Ultimate Nightcrawler has some really good story potential, and he's not about to waste that.

I think the coma was a bit of a nod to regular continuity when he was incapacitated after the Morlock Massacre and in a coma for ... some time. I don't remember the specifics, but he didn't wake up until after the X-Men had 'died' and went on to help found Excalibur with Shadowcat. Who knows what he'll do now that he's woken up from this coma after the X-Men have 'died' this time?
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Oh dear, I hope he isn't going to join the Morlocks and just disappear.

Edit: Not that I'm not excited about seeing the Ultimate Morlocks. I am!

[Edited on 20-2-2007 by The Drastic Spastic]
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Post by Singe »

Like it or not, the crazy was a long time in coming. That was one thing that bothered me about this incarnation, where he was all jumping around, happy go-lucky, and it's not really touched on, the fact that hey, wasn't he, you know, physically and mentally tortured for a pretty fair piece of time? Yesh, plus the no friends, no feeling of support from anyone, and I think the idea of sexual abuse in his background is a pretty valid point. This was bound to happen.

But yeah, I think it could have happened a little more delicately. I just don't feel like the whole "you're a monster" thing works unless Rogue's biases are all that's putting it there. His very first arc shows him at the end of it stopping someone from killing someone who had it coming, lest they become a killer. He knows what it's like, he doesn't want that pushed off on anyone else.

All the same, angst. Lord, I tire of angst. And nothing says angst like Morlocks.

Seems like Kurt gets sent off on assasination missions by illegal government agencies in a lot of incarnations.
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Post by stupidusername »

Can you blame them, Singe? If you were a government who needed to "eliminate" certain elements off the record and had access to a person of Kurt's abilities, wouldn't you try to use that to your advantage? Forget about the moral implications. Most governments in RL as well as in comics seem to be perfectly willing to check their morals at the door when it comes to either holding onto their power or acheiving their objectives. (Edit: Pardon my cynicism)

Kurt is a acrobatic teleporter. With his wall climbing abilities and ability to blend into shadows, he is almost ninja-like. The only reason Wolverine and Sabretooth are ranked higher (Weapon X and X2, I assume since Sabre took Wolvie's place) is because they have healing factors and so can endure more. But never underestimate a teleporter. What we have seen so far from "X3" is just a drop in the bucket of what he can possibly do, or has already done, most like.

Those Morlocks better look out. They have no idea what sort of "demon" ultimate Nightcrawler can be. But they're going to find out.

[Edited on 24/2/07 by stupidusername]

[Edited on 24/2/07 by stupidusername]
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Post by Nandireya »

I think Kurt was X3 because he was their third 'recruit'...
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Post by stupidusername »

Nandireya, you are right. When I went back to look, it wasn't a rank, it was a designation. The third weapon X. But, does that mean he was there at Weapon X longer than Rogue, Juggernaut, and the others that attacked the mansion?
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