Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

See, I always understood mutancy in a way that the "purer" the mutant, the more powerful....i.e. a third gen would be more powerful than a second, which would be more than a first....so TJ and Kurt having more powers makes sense....though Im not sure if it works with other second+ gen mutatnts (Pietro and Siryn for example)

Yeah, god forbid they make decisions on what stories to tell when rather than vetoing a part of a character and making it impossible for anyone to do it. And jesus, god forbid the read and learn what TJs powers are before they decide to veto them for the wrong reasons...
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by chicory »

If every succeeding generation is more powerful then the last where will it end? In five or six generations everyone will be a Phoenix or an Apocalypse!

I'd prefer the idea that there's a range of power potency and how much a mutant gets is just a roll of the dice. Though in a case like Nocturne when she's getting the gene from both parents (theoretically) I'd accept that she'd be likely to be more powerful.

I guess the X-gene isn't meant to obey real-world genetic laws, but I don't get how a gene would increase in effect just because the grandparents and the parents both had it. That is the grandson of a hemophiliac won't be a super!hemophiliac, he'll just be a hemophiliac like his grandfather.
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Well, trying to apply our sciences to this world is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.....it ain't gonna work.

But..what I meant was thinking of mutantcy as a race. When two people of the same race, who come from stock that is untouched by any other race, produce a child, that child represents that race at a very pure form..and will be effected to a fuller extent by all aspects of that race, pro and con....Mutancy as we've seen in the books is very non-pure. Most mutants (that we know) are born of humans and therefor do not show mutancy in a purer form. However, mutants born of mutant parents (especially where both parents are mutants) like Nightcrawler, exhibit far more severe/powerful levels of mutancy. And Nocturne, who not only has two mutant parents, but also three mutant grandparents..and thats only as far as we know, would then, exhibit more powers in turn.

Maybe it is meant for all mutants to eventually evolve to super crazy power like the Phoenix or Apolcalypse...if thats what mutancy is in its purest form. I mean, for a collection of characters who have been described as "the next step in evolution", we can't think its the last step.

Of course, this is all just my speculation based on psuedo-science and what I have seen in the books. None of it is true in canon, but it's what I came up with that I think makes sense from what I have seen....
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by Blue_Demon94 »

I'm not sure if it's just the genes or what, but all of Scott's children have been like God-like mutants and all his kids were with mutants (with Jean's genes of course).. aide from Scott's kids and Nocturne, I can't think of any mutant-mutant child, but from just them, I think Nacht has a point..
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Post by chicory »

Because it's just a comic book, I'm willing to accept the whole idea of X-gene mutants following a path to some higher purpose destiny. But, it still bothers me how Marvel represents science - in real life evolution is species adapting to their environment. It's not at all like climbing a ladder.

Pseudoscience is still fun to speculate about though - even if it can't possibly be tied to RL rules. When you say race, are you saying that mutants are originally of diluted genes (human parents) and the only way to 'purify' a mutant to get closer to what they're meant to be you need to concentrate those genes and hope they're activated in the following generations?

And just for arguments sake, Magneto's the one who insists that X-gene mutants are Homo superior. But, who's to say that isn't as frakked up as the nazi's claiming that 'aryans' are a master race? The only way for them to become a separate species is if they choose to isolate their unique genes by breeding exclusively with other mutants. Red-heads could isolate themselves from the rest of humanity and over time be considered their own species - but if they instead decided to keep their genes in the gene pool and intermarried with 'normal' humans then some of their children would show the trait and some wouldn't - but they'd all be considered human.

That's why I think the X-men made a terrible mistake when they started talking about themselves as 'homo superior' instead of insisting that they are all human. (Someone with Down's Syndrome may look different and someone with sickle cell anemia may have differently shaped RBCs, but they're still human)

Heh. I've thought about that way too much, but I can't help thinking sometimes that there's something just off about the core concept of all the X-books.
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by Angelique »

Well, Marvel "science" and real world genetics have this much in common. We still really can't predict what would result based on Mendel's charts. A child of mutants might be more powerful than their parents, might be as powerful, less powerful, might not exibit a mutant trait, or might not even carry an X gene. We do have some real-life examples of such genetic wild cards. Even in something as mundane as eye color.

(I like to use my parents as an example when people try to oversimplify genetics. They both have hazel eyes. Not only do none of their children have hazel eyes, but three of those four probably don't even carry any gene for that trait.)

So until we know more about genetics in general, I'm content to believe that the X-gene would behave as a sort of wild card gene. Mutant parents may have a child at least as powerful as themselves. Or they may have a Graydon Creed.

And excellent point, Chicory. The whole concept of "homo superior" is frakked. Leave it to Mags to coin the term, of course! :D

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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by chicory

Pseudoscience is still fun to speculate about though - even if it can't possibly be tied to RL rules. When you say race, are you saying that mutants are originally of diluted genes (human parents) and the only way to 'purify' a mutant to get closer to what they're meant to be you need to concentrate those genes and hope they're activated in the following generations?


TRhats exactly what I'm saying :D
And just for arguments sake, Magneto's the one who insists that X-gene mutants are Homo superior. But, who's to say that isn't as frakked up as the nazi's claiming that 'aryans' are a master race? The only way for them to become a separate species is if they choose to isolate their unique genes by breeding exclusively with other mutants. Red-heads could isolate themselves from the rest of humanity and over time be considered their own species - but if they instead decided to keep their genes in the gene pool and intermarried with 'normal' humans then some of their children would show the trait and some wouldn't - but they'd all be considered human.
Accutally I think one of the main points of Mags "Homo Superioir" thing is to make it comparable to Hitler...Mags went through the atrocities of the Holocaust, and saw first hand what creating a superior race can do, as well the horror of genocide. And in trying to stop anything genocidal from happening now to mutants, he has taken his cause so far that he is sounding very much like Hitler did....I always took it that that was the way it was supposed to be read.....

I think my brain is farting..because I am having trouble getting things out exactly as I mean them..but I think I got the point across...
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by Nandireya »

[quote]Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
See, I always understood mutancy in a way that the "purer" the mutant, the more powerful....i.e. a third gen would be more powerful than a second, which would be more than a first....so TJ and Kurt having more powers makes sense....though Im not sure if it works with other second+ gen mutatnts (Pietro and Siryn for example)[/quote]

I can kinda field that one...

TJ and Kurt are 'pure' mutants, that is both their parents were mutants, whereas Pietro (and Wanda) and Theresa have only one mutant parent...all could have inherited their parent's power, though only Theresa appears to have done so, and all could manifest their own, unless you count Kurt and TJ's blueness as an inherited trait...they could develop their own, which seems to be the most common occurrence...or they could do both...like Rachel (another 'pure' 2nd generation mutant) who inherited her Mum's telepathy and telekinesis but also possess the rarely use chronological manipulation ability...

Though I have to say the idea that Kurt and TJ had to lose powers because they were too powerful is quite ludicrous. Put them side-by-side with mutants like Storm, Phoenix, Polaris, Magneto, Wanda…and tell me THEY’RE the powerful ones…
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Post by Blue_Demon94 »

If we're going to really look into how the gene is passed down, look at a family like the Guthries. Both parents seemed to be human, yet a large majority of their children were born mutants. With such powerful traits, it would seem that their children are more likely to have 'pure' offspring than say, Iceman, whose parents were both human I believe..

As for the Homo Superior thing, I believe Magneto thinks that way because they are the first humans who excel the abilities of normal humans in the past. Their abilities give Magneto the assumption that they're better than baseline humans, whereas let's say a redhead is only affected as far as their appearance goes, not their actual abilities or limitations and such.. Not really sure if this made any sense, but I happen to think that Magneto was right in calling them the homo superior..
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Post by Angelique »

Well, there's more to being a separate species than just having different abilities. From a standpoint of biology, Magneto was wrong to assert that mutants are anything other than human, let alone generally better than human.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

I'm gonna split this if it's ok with Nandi and the rest of you. We're just way off topic and rather give it its own thread than stop everyone from discussing....
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

I don't know where this "purity" thing came from. Has a mutant in canon ever fathered/given birth to a non-mutant child? It doesn't seem to matter if both parents are mutants... there might be a greater variety of mutations but power levels are looking pretty much arbitrary.
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Post by chicory »

[quote]Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
I'm gonna split this if it's ok with Nandi and the rest of you. We're just way off topic and rather give it its own thread than stop everyone from discussing....[/quote]

I'm glad this topic got it's own thread :)

[quote]Originally posted by Angelique
Well, Marvel "science" and real world genetics have this much in common. We still really can't predict what would result based on Mendel's charts. A child of mutants might be more powerful than their parents, might be as powerful, less powerful, might not exibit a mutant trait, or might not even carry an X gene. We do have some real-life examples of such genetic wild cards. Even in something as mundane as eye color.

(I like to use my parents as an example when people try to oversimplify genetics. They both have hazel eyes. Not only do none of their children have hazel eyes, but three of those four probably don't even carry any gene for that trait.)

So until we know more about genetics in general, I'm content to believe that the X-gene would behave as a sort of wild card gene. Mutant parents may have a child at least as powerful as themselves. Or they may have a Graydon Creed.

And excellent point, Chicory. The whole concept of "homo superior" is frakked. Leave it to Mags to coin the term, of course! :D [/quote]

I like the idea of the X-genes being an unpredictable wild card where human parents can give birth to mutants and mutant parents can have human babies.

And absolutely, the X-men are wrong to be adapting Mags philosophy about what mutants are. How do they expect to ever realize a peace with non-mutants if they go around saying (and teaching their students) that they are the representatives of the new master race?

[quote]Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
Accutally I think one of the main points of Mags "Homo Superioir" thing is to make it comparable to Hitler...Mags went through the atrocities of the Holocaust, and saw first hand what creating a superior race can do, as well the horror of genocide. And in trying to stop anything genocidal from happening now to mutants, he has taken his cause so far that he is sounding very much like Hitler did....I always took it that that was the way it was supposed to be read.....

I think my brain is farting..because I am having trouble getting things out exactly as I mean them..but I think I got the point across...[/quote]

That's an excellent point about Magneto being written to sound like Hitler - that the writers are doing that intentially and it's a big part of the character that he lived through the holocaust, wanted to prevent another one, and adopted the tactics of the oppressors to accomplish that.

Course that's another reason why Xavier's people shouldn't be listening to him. I think it was one of the first Astonishing issues where Shadowcat comes back to the mansion and shows up late to the student orientation meeting in the auditorium just in time to see the simulated sentinel attack on the student body. Way to inspire the hate and fear ( and commit another generation to continue the war).

[quote]Originally posted by Nandireya
I can kinda field that one...

TJ and Kurt are 'pure' mutants, that is both their parents were mutants, whereas Pietro (and Wanda) and Theresa have only one mutant parent...all could have inherited their parent's power, though only Theresa appears to have done so, and all could manifest their own, unless you count Kurt and TJ's blueness as an inherited trait...they could develop their own, which seems to be the most common occurrence...or they could do both...like Rachel (another 'pure' 2nd generation mutant) who inherited her Mum's telepathy and telekinesis but also possess the rarely use chronological manipulation ability...

Though I have to say the idea that Kurt and TJ had to lose powers because they were too powerful is quite ludicrous. Put them side-by-side with mutants like Storm, Phoenix, Polaris, Magneto, Wanda…and tell me THEY’RE the powerful ones…[/quote]

Nightcrawler and Nocturne seem to have just the right amount of powers without losing any. They're not nearly as powerful as the so called alpha class of mutants. (They can't create black holes, warp all reality, be mistaken for cosmic beings)

I think it makes sense that mutants with X-genes (whatever those are supposed to look like in the universe) from both parents would potentially have more abilities. But I don't like the idea of mutants separating themselves along purity lines (makes me wonder what the house of m world must have been like). And then there's the conflict of mutants dividing themselves along whether they can pass for humans or not (but I'm not sure which books were talking about that :?)

If we're going to really look into how the gene is passed down, look at a family like the Guthries. Both parents seemed to be human, yet a large majority of their children were born mutants. With such powerful traits, it would seem that their children are more likely to have 'pure' offspring than say, Iceman, whose parents were both human I believe..

[quote]Originally posted by Blue_Demon94
As for the Homo Superior thing, I believe Magneto thinks that way because they are the first humans who excel the abilities of normal humans in the past. Their abilities give Magneto the assumption that they're better than baseline humans, whereas let's say a redhead is only affected as far as their appearance goes, not their actual abilities or limitations and such.. Not really sure if this made any sense, but I happen to think that Magneto was right in calling them the homo superior..[/quote]

The red-head example was just one of a visible trait and I was trying to say that they'd have to make a conscious decision to isolate themselves (and it would take many generations if they wanted to be a separate species.

Mutants have all these amazing abilities but you could say that it's just a trait, like red-hair, and it doesn't necessarily make them less human (unless something else is going on). So, to say that they are superior to all humans is just an opinion and not neccessarily true.

So, I think it's wrong for them to go around calling themselves Homo superior - but at the same time I guess it works as a tag-line for selling comic books...

[quote]Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
I don't know where this "purity" thing came from. Has a mutant in canon ever fathered/given birth to a non-mutant child? It doesn't seem to matter if both parents are mutants... there might be a greater variety of mutations but power levels are looking pretty much arbitrary.[/quote]

Drastic Spastic: Mystique + Sabretooth -> Greydon Creed - (I suppose he could be a latent mutant though... but I like him better as human)
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Post by Angelique »

I like to equate mutant abilities with other abilities for which one can inherit an aptitude. Someone could inherit genetic potential to excel in music, or wrestling, or maths, et cetera. But just because they may be better at one thing or another, and just because that potential may be connected to a genetic trait, it doesn't make them inherently better in general.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by chicory
Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
I don't know where this "purity" thing came from. Has a mutant in canon ever fathered/given birth to a non-mutant child? It doesn't seem to matter if both parents are mutants... there might be a greater variety of mutations but power levels are looking pretty much arbitrary.
Drastic Spastic: Mystique + Sabretooth -> Greydon Creed - (I suppose he could be a latent mutant though... but I like him better as human)
I don't know how I forgot about him. But still they're both mutants, so... purity theory?

When you really think about it, kids in the MU exist purely as plot devices so looking for a pattern could be tough.
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Post by chicory »

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
I don't know how I forgot about him. But still they're both mutants, so... purity theory?

When you really think about it, kids in the MU exist purely as plot devices so looking for a pattern could be tough.
:whistle true. Sometimes I wish the writers were as obsessive as the fans are. I imagine Joss Whedon is that way, but the majority don't seem to care about being consistant with the little details. I suppose the only thing that matters really though is telling a story.

(Er - where is your quote from?)
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by chicory
Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
I don't know how I forgot about him. But still they're both mutants, so... purity theory?

When you really think about it, kids in the MU exist purely as plot devices so looking for a pattern could be tough.
:whistle true. Sometimes I wish the writers were as obsessive as the fans are. I imagine Joss Whedon is that way, but the majority don't seem to care about being consistant with the little details. I suppose the only thing that matters really though is telling a story.

(Er - where is your quote from?)
Whedon is that way about his own stuff, not sure what he can do for consistency with the already established MU though.

(Googled it and found it on this random IT guy's site, attributed to himself. *adds credit*)
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Post by Blue_Demon94 »

I could imagine Whedon being that way.. he's already trying to establish Hisako as a character (on a sidenote, was anyone else confused about her powers.. was it an ability her whole family had or is her power derived from her ancestors??)

Anywho, the way I see it is the same way it was told to me in like 8th Grade Science.. there is a whole colony of frogs living along a stream, they're all the same species. Over time, however the stream grows bigger and bigger until it's a river and the frogs are separated into two colonies. The frogs on one side remain the same as the years (decades, centuries..) pass while the other frogs mutate into a new species. Are they still frogs? Yes, but they're a completely new species of frogs, much like the mutants are a completely new species of human.

They're still human in a sense, but they've evolved from beyond being just Homo Sapiens to becoming what Magneto has affectionately called the Homo Superior. As it's true in the animal kingdom, I'm sure the moment humans begin sprouting wings, tails, or extra appendages, they should be considered more than humans.. Homo Sapien literally means something along the lines of "modern human", so I believe mutants don't quite meet that classification, seeing as how they're not what you'd consider "modern"..
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Post by Haver »

In an RPG I'm plot mastering for, I am taking a slightly different take. 73,000 years ago the Toba supervolcano near the island of Sumatra errupted, causing mass extinctions from the resultant nuclear winter effect. Humanity was reduced to an estimated 5,000 population. (this part is real, not made up).

It is typical for small, isolated populations to genetically diverge - this is called the island effect. It is even possible that human consciousness evolved at the same time but I can't immediately confirm it (think I may have read it somewhere).

So for the game I run I claim that mutant abilities evolved during this period. Eventually, however, the genes for this became recessive or became disabled through genetic switches (since many mutations would be non-viable or have disadvantages this too, is feasible through natural selection. Many genetic traints are turned on or off by the action of genetic switches which enable or disable them). A few lines may have become dominant and been passed on early, and from this is where we get the legendary stories of gods, ancient heroes, and biblical figures with extraordinary lifespans. Eventually these lines die out or otherwise become recessive.

So why would mutants re-emerge? With the increase of genetic damage from environmental toxins, the genetic allos the surpressed genes to re-emerge. Since genetic damage is random, everything appears totally random...and perhaps over all this time, some of those repressed genes found a way to become dominant again once the lid was taken off.
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Post by chicory »

Maybe its not worth getting into a discussion about, but... Blue_Demon94, that's a good point about the frogs separated by a river. But humans and mutants aren't isolated unless they choose to be, and furthermore humans and mutants can still have children together (making them all the same species).

If the river were diverted before the frogs had mutated so much that they could no longer interbreed, then the two groups would mingle and their unique genes would be shared throughout the population.

Haver, that's an interesting idea for the game you're running. I've always liked the idea that aliens used a select group of humans for genetic recombinant experiements and somehow those 'special' genes ended up contaminating the 'wild' population. (I think that might be canon, something about the Celestials?)

I'm not convinced that humans are any more 'conscious' than bonobos, blue jays or botlenose dolphins. So, I don't think its fair to speculate when (or if) that event ever occured.

I'll have to look that up about the volcano - I never heard of that before.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by chicory
I've always liked the idea that aliens used a select group of humans for genetic recombinant experiements and somehow those 'special' genes ended up contaminating the 'wild' population. (I think that might be canon, something about the Celestials?)
Hahaha!! That's canon? I just think it's funny because that's a fringe theory on where humans came from. Aliens combining alien and monkey DNA. I'm rather fond of that theory and it's nice to see it getting out a bit.
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Post by Haver »

//responding to Chicory//
Volcanoes have played a pretty far-reaching role in our history, actually. At one point in the Earth's lifecycle, an ice-age reached the tipping point where it bacame a self-reenforcing cycle and the earth was totally frozen. It took massive volcanic activity to break that cycle.

We know about the one in 1200 B.C. that bought a collapse to much of the ancient world and was responsible for the Atlantean story. The Phillistines from biblical fame supposedly originated from this event.

In the seventh century (A.D., or C.E. for the politically correct) Krakkatoa (spelling?) was principally responsible for bringing on the dark ages (contrary to popular belief - the barbarian successors to Rome actually kept things running for a good long while, just not as well). In Europe it created a nuclear winter effect which lasted for three years running. It allowed barbarians to overrun China, was an instigator for the rise of Islam, and stressed Bynzantium to a point where it almost collapsed - In fact, it never fully recovered.

When Mt. Aetna blows again its just going to bury Naples.

...and then there's Yellowstone. It took a long time to recognize that there's a volcano under all that, just because its so massive. People just aren't used to a volcano which stretches 50+ miles in each direction. The last time it blew up there was ash fall 12 feet thick 500 miles away!

Too much scary stuff on the Discovery channel.
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by Angelique »

Definitely 50 plus miles, emphasis on the plus part. The magma chamber that powers Yellowstone is almost as big as the entire state of Wyoming. In the event that that thing blows, I'll be waving bye-bye on behalf of Idaho Falls, because we'll be the first town with a population over 50,000 wiped off the map.

[Edited on 12/3/06 by Angelique]
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Nandireya
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by Nandireya »

Okay…I think I can answer the Greydon Creed thing…maybe…but only if the mutant gene is the dominant gene…it’s the blue eye/brown eye thing…

The first generation mutants are unlikely to be PURE mutants…that is they have a mutant gene and a human gene in their chromosomes…because in order to become mutants that gene would have had to mutate because if they inherited it then one of their parents would have shown mutant ability IF the mutant gene is a dominant gene…which it has to be for this theory to work…

When Raven got together with Azazel, her mutant gene and Azazel’s mutant gene were both passed on to Kurt so he got phenomenal mutant powers…but when Raven got together with Vic…her human gene and his human gene were passed to Greydon so he got diddly squat, except maybe their combined egos, making his enormous…
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Angelique
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Homo superior, mutant "purity" and the like

Post by Angelique »

Well, real genetics is rarely as simple as Mendel thought in his day. And if a mutant X gene was dominant, it would stand to reason that more of Mystique's children would be mutant. Is Gloria Brickman a mutant?
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