X-Men General Discussion Reload

black mamba · Post by **black mamba** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:48 am

many of my problems with austen was his treatment with stacy. he wrote her extremely out of character the point to where she was nothing more then a cheap x-whore who tried to sleep with everyone. i even hear he had a whole sexually charged story for stacy x revealing her shocking/sexually explicit backround. which scared the ediotors so much the decided to get rid of stacy altogether.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:01 pm

that is just patently ridiculous. that's not what happened at all. infact, you know what Chuck's original plan for Stacy was? to have her revealed to be a virgin. over compensating with the big talk. yeah. some sexually explicit background, there...

I'd also like to add Stacy was a very new character so had almost no history, she was almost a blank slate. and her racy prostitute background was provided by Casey, not Chuck.

it says right in the rules, do not state rumor as fact. please follow this next time.

KurtnMeggan · Post by **KurtnMeggan** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:08 pm

So, any characters people want to see Milligan keep/drop/bring in to the book?

Personally, I'm hoping he wants to keep Iceman around and correct his personality. he's been quite a chore to read for a while now. Otherwise, I kind of don't care, though I'd like to see Havok, Juggernaut and Polaris hang around too.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:11 pm

well, it's only "correction" in your opinion. There's plenty of pre-existing reasoning to make him as he is, so one could argue that the current Iceman is the "real" one.

But bascially I've really liked what had been happeneing with Iceman over the last year or so. It made me want to read about him and it brought interest to the book by reminding us that when you get that many people sharing space and spending all that time together, there's going to be some people that simply rub you a little wrong.

For a long time, Bobby was just kinda "I'm here if you need good powers, but don't serve much of any other purpose" in my opinion. I don't see how that's better than this.

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:41 am

Originally posted by KurtnMeggan
I kind of don't care

You've just summed up my opinion on Milligan taking over. Didn't like X-Statix, haven't read anything else he's written. Maybe if he had some characters I'd actually be interested in reading about I'd check it out. Otherwise... meh. Iceman has always had a lot of potential, but he's never interested me as much as I thought he should. He's written either boring or just stupid.

KurtnMeggan · Post by **KurtnMeggan** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:31 pm

Crawler, please don't read into my statement. I know you are super-defensive of Austen's work and assume that people are intending to insult him. I never implied this Iceman wasn't real, though, so that's a really poor word choice, on your part.

The fact of the matter is simply that I prefer the way Iceman was before Reload and would like to see that Iceman return, complete with a sense of humor and a level of maturity reflecting that which he had in OZT not too long ago. He's become really petty of late, especially in the latest X-Men issue, and it's not something we've seen from Bobby in a LONG time.

And I found the entire argument between he and Juggernaut last issue to be a tedious affair. I don't mind if they don't get along, but they could both act like adults about it instead of children.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:05 pm

I'm not super-defensive of Chuck's work. As I've admitted many times, I have problems with some of his work and some of the issues I downright hated.

And I know you just want the "old" Iceman back. But you used the word CORRECT, which implies that you think that the way Iceman is currently being portray is WRONG, which I have to take exception with, regardless of who wrote it.

It's only WRONG if there's no reasoning to support it, and there's plenty of that. Most of Bobby's current actions and attitude are based on old ones, which weren't written by Chuck.

And Bobby and Juggernaut were never the most mature X-Men.

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:28 am

Crawler, that's really not entirely accurate. Austen himself admitted the only reason he made Bobby the way he is now is because he's got "cold" powers, so he should have a "cold" personality. He based it upon one issue of X-Factor that was over 20 years old and really can't be considered applicable anymore, since Iceman has acted nothing like that since then.

And I don't buy him getting all depressed for turning all-ice, since the exact same thing has happened before, and was fixed by his friends. Even if this current change was irreversible, I still don't see why he hasn't at least asked his buddies for help, nor why he only confided in Annie the supernurse. It just... doesn't make sense. I know people will probably jump down my throat shouting that its just a comic or something, but still... it doesn't make sense. And that's what's irritating so many people about his current characterization, I believe.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:34 am

My only point was that calling it "wrong" is wrong. It's not wrong unless there is no support...and there IS support.

And, to my memory, there was no resolution to Bobby being a jealous jerk from the earlier days. He was mostly convenient powers for a long while.

Plus him being a jerk had even more reasoning within CHuck's issues. Suddenly he was dealing with not being an incognito mutant anymore. Sure, he had sorta dealt before, and you have to reckon that any plea for help from Beast or whoever happened off panel.

Why did he confide in Annie? Because he knew she'd be as disgusted as he was, really. She doesn't like mutants but lives among them...and so does Bobby. He's a self-loather when it interferes with his normalcy.

E.M.S · Post by **E.M.S** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:57 am

Iceman was mature before Austen took over. I have read issues with Iceman that range from the original X-Men days, his 'teamless' days (where he just made appearances), Defenders, X-Factor to Austen. In those issues Bobby has joked around, been a serious student, a shoulder to cry on, and a devoted teammate. Besides CCs’ “First Night” I’m not sure at the other behavior you mean Crawler but regardless Bobby had matured since that story. OZT being a prime example.

Heck he even got along with Cain during X-Men forever! (I've heard some people say that's not canon but the X-Men guide said it was so that’s why I mention it.) I admit Bobby hasn't been completely off character, as he did drop his "oh why me" brooding in favor of saving Warren and Paige. That is Bobby.

But to have him keep his S.M. a secret from his friends, people that could have helped him and understood him--that does not fit. As for Bobby trusting Annie? I can't see why he'd do it either. He was clearly uncomfortable with her fear of mutants. He even prefered Xavier fixing him up over her. I think it would be far more likely if he just went to Hank instead. Even if it was just a panel it would show that Bobby was actually trying to get help. What does Annie know about mutantions? She could never hope to help him.

After years of development, and many writers trying to break Bobby of his “immature” label he’s been reduced to a whiney brat. As a matter of fact that was the whole point of the second limited series, the writers wanted to help break Bobby of this label. Frankly I don’t think changing a character because he’s too much like Kurt or that he’s made of ice are good reasons for doing so. I was upset when Kurt was made into a brooding priest because I felt the direction felt too pushed, I feel that what has happened to Iceman is far worse.

I was so excited when I read Austens' first interview where he promised to help Bobby find what 'was missing.' So yes, I am disappointed.

KurtnMeggan · Post by **KurtnMeggan** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:40 am

Frankly, there is a considerably larger amount of support going AGAINST his current characterization than IN FAVOR of it. Both in canon and among the masses of fans who have followed the character intimately.

And I am not asking for the old Iceman back. I am asking for an Iceman that makes sense. Which the pre-Reload one did, mostly. Note that I personally don't have much of a problem with Austen's handling of Bobby before Reload (except that killing/dehydrating stunt in Draco). It's this stuff lately that just hurts me to read as it diminishes the character of all the progress and forward-moving he'd done since his inception.

mightiest_mortal · Post by **mightiest_mortal** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:41 am

I like Bobby now. I hate to say it but OZT is the only time hes done ANYTHING at all in 10 years if not a lot longer. People keep saying about OZT and that one issue with him and Rogue on the Beach, It doesnt really say a lot about a character thats been around for 50 years when people only really remeber him doing anything interesting in about 5 issues.

Iceman is annoyed and Whining a lot but he does have good reason, for one the whole turning into ICe, and secondly Havok coming back onto the team, as team leader especially. When it comes down to the crunch he still shows concern for Havok, like in the latest issue where he wants to stay behind to protect him... but aside from that hes just a bit bitter. I think hes somewhat Jealous of Juggernaut being there aswell, and being at exaclty the same Status as he is already. Iceman is one of the original team and has been around the mansion for a long time. By all rights he should have progressed more in the X-Men and should at least be a team leader by now, but he hasnt because other people, like Havok get apointed above him and so hes left with no better standing or weight in the X-Men than a reformed criminal that joined the group a month ago. ITs no wonder hes pissed off at them all.

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:27 pm

Originally posted by Crawler
My only point was that calling it "wrong" is wrong. It's not wrong unless there is no support...and there IS support.

But your "support" is only a very small volume of outdated sources. By your logic, the next writer could make Wolverine a sickly little wuss and "support" it using the first two issues of Origin. Obviously, things have progressed since then.

And, to my memory, there was no resolution to Bobby being a jealous jerk from the earlier days. He was mostly convenient powers for a long while.

Try X-Men: Forever or Operation: Zero Tolerance. There admittedly is not a large amount of Iceman goodness out there, but these sources are much more up to date than the issues Austen is basing his current characterization on (issues that are probably older than I am). I mean seriously... "I still love you Lorna"??? Its been how many decades since they stopped putting them together? Lorna was quite well established with Havok as Iceman went through a number of relationships, most seriously with Opal Tanaka (who, based on the info in his Icons mini, he was deeply in love with). In any case, Lorna and Bobby are ancient history even by Marvel time. And that's just one of the areas where Austen seems to have messed up Bobby.

Plus him being a jerk had even more reasoning within CHuck's issues. Suddenly he was dealing with not being an incognito mutant anymore. Sure, he had sorta dealt before, and you have to reckon that any plea for help from Beast or whoever happened off panel.

And once again we see that the only way to accept much of Austen's work is to assume a whole bunch of important stuff happened off panel, events that have not been alluded to in the slightest in the text. Um... no, I won't be doing that. If Austen has enough time to show Jubilee lusting after a dead guy, he has enough time to show Bobby at least trying to find help, especially since this has happened before. Not sorta, it was the exact same thing, just from a different source. A problem his firends were able to help him solve almost immediately, not to mention the fact that Emma Frost was also in the mansion, who had also helped him with his powers in the past. This whole thing is just Austen making excuses for characterization that doesn't make sense.

Why did he confide in Annie? Because he knew she'd be as disgusted as he was, really. She doesn't like mutants but lives among them...and so does Bobby. He's a self-loather when it interferes with his normalcy.

Um... ok. That's actually kind of deep, but once again it's completely out of line from his previous characterization. Even within the realm of Austen's own plots, Bobby expressed that he only really trusted the original five X-Men, plus Xavier. So whether you look at what came before Austen, or whether you look at what Austen himself wrote, it still doesn't make sense.

It seemed more likely to me that Austen was trying to justify Annie's pressence in the book as well.

E.M.S · Post by **E.M.S** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:10 pm

[quote]Originally posted by mightiest_mortal
I think hes somewhat Jealous of Juggernaut being there aswell, and being at exaclty the same Status as he is already. Iceman is one of the original team and has been around the mansion for a long time. By all rights he should have progressed more in the X-Men and should at least be a team leader by now, but he hasnt because other people, like Havok get apointed above him and so hes left with no better standing or weight in the X-Men than a reformed criminal that joined the group a month ago. ITs no wonder hes pissed off at them all. [/quote]

His anger towards Cain for being a former enemy doesn't make much sense. Bobby brought Marrow to the mansion, a girl who was a known killer. I seriously doubt he'd be this upset over Cain. And getting jealous over status? Iceman did get respect from his teammates in the past. He was doing important undercover work and in one of the unlimited issues Austen wrote showed he was involved in important meetings with Xavier, Scott and Jean.

The thing that really bothers me is that Austen did not change Bobbys' character for a good reason. He did so because he didn't understand how a man made of ice could be lighthearted. And that Bobby was too much like Kurt. That's like changing Cyclops into the class clown because Logan has the brooding/angst label. Or making Kurt evil because he looks the part of a demon.

Iceman and Nightcrawler both joke around but they are different . Kurt (looks like a demon) is a confident ladies man that has faith in God. Bobby (could change back to human form) was the underdog with unlimited potential, who had the worst luck with love and never showed as much interest in either of his parent’s religions. So much could have been done with Bobby, instead we get a bitter, selfish, man, not Iceman.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:45 am

and Chuck said as much in an interview. he said how their senses of humor and personality were different, stating pretty much what you said above. that's not why he changed his personality. he changed it to create internal conflict.

E.M.S · Post by **E.M.S** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:08 am

I remember him saying so in his first interview, stating that their humor comes from different places, but in the one I was referring to was one of his later ones. The one where he stated that he didn't get how Bobbys' upbeat personality went with his powers.

I understand that a writer needs some conflict but my question is why did Austen always have to use Bobby? He could have easily used Northstar as the team jerk when he was under his pen. JP could have been getting on Warrens' case about his failing as a businessman (I would have loved to have seen more of this), been rude to Bobby to hide his feelings, snapped at Cain. JP has trouble with letting people close, other than his sister, and it would have been great to see.

And Lorna could be the real internal conflict on the team. More so than Iceman is now. Alex dumped her for Annie on her wedding day. She's been though hell and doesn't have time for 'stupid people.' It would be interesting to see Logan try to be the cool-headed one.

As for what he could have done with Bobby? I would have liked to see what was "missing" and have him earn more control over his powers, even deal with somethings in his past. I read so many recaps of Kurts' origin where he is almost killed by a mob but not one about Bobbys' origin. He's one of the few Marvel heroes that has both parents, what do they think of their only child risking his life? So much potential.

Northstars Love · Post by **Northstars Love** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:30 am

Originally posted by E.M.S

I understand that a writer needs some conflict but my question is why did Austen always have to use Bobby? He could have easily used Northstar as the team jerk when he was under his pen. JP could have been getting on Warrens' case about his failing as a businessman (I would have loved to have seen more of this), been rude to Bobby to hide his feelings, snapped at Paige, and been annoyed with Cain. JP has trouble with letting people close, other than his sister, and it would have been great to see.

I disagree. Northstar is an egotistical jerk at times but some readers tend to relate that attitude with his homosexuality. He's an asshole because he doesn't get any or he's gay therefore he hates woman. He would have been a guy most readers loved to hate if his attitude was unbearable to his teammates. And his homosexuality would have been to blame by some readers. Bobby will always survive. He has his fans. But Northstar still has to prove himself to some readers.

So instead Austin wanted to do something more positive with him. Give a love life and a reason to exist. Making him part of the X team and giving gay readers someone to relate to. But now that he's off the X-books that may never happen. Making him more hated would have been a bad move on Marvel's part. They already killed off one gay character, Sunfire in Exiles. Why do injustice to another great character?

KurtnMeggan · Post by **KurtnMeggan** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:34 am

I agree that JP, given his history and past characterization, would have been the ideal choice to play antagonist and hard-ass on the team, much the same way Emma worked in Morrison's New X-Men run. It worked because it made sense with past continuity. And Emma became perhaps the most popular character of that run because of her button-pushing among her teammates. I don't see why thsi would hae adversely affected JP. I would expect Quicksilver to be the disagreeable one on any given team he's ever on just because it's a role he played for years and continues to play.

And I can't fault Austen for making Bobby upset about Alex's return and role in the new team, but Alex has been back for several years now, all of which under Austen's pen, and the issue was barely addressed. The window to address it appropriately has passed and now it just doesn't make sense.

And the sad fact about Northstar is that Austen did not do anything positive with him following his first issue starring him. Afterwards he became a fairly stereotypical flaming gay man, which doesn't agree with his history either. It was a noble ambition, and it's too bad nothing really came of it (much like bringing Jubilee back from limbo). Hopefully he'll get the treatment he deserves in New X-Men: Academy X as Nunzio and Christina like him and he is still on staff at the school...

black mamba · Post by **black mamba** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:29 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
that is just patently ridiculous. that's not what happened at all. infact, you know what Chuck's original plan for Stacy was? to have her revealed to be a virgin. over compensating with the big talk. yeah. some sexually explicit background, there...

I'd also like to add Stacy was a very new character so had almost no history, she was almost a blank slate. and her racy prostitute background was provided by Casey, not Chuck.

it says right in the rules, do not state rumor as fact. please follow this next time.

if you read my post properly you would have noticed me say "I HEARD" not "IT IS". i'm very glad chuck intended for stacy-x to be a virgin which would have followed with caseys original plan. stacy may have been new but what little was established about her austen basicly threw out the window.

black mamba · Post by **black mamba** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:34 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
and Chuck said as much in an interview. he said how their senses of humor and personality were different, stating pretty much what you said above. that's not why he changed his personality. he changed it to create internal conflict.

and that's not a good thing bamfette. i mean the fact that bobby had these cold as ice powers and this warm loving personality was what made him intresting and different. but that just flew right over chucks head and he wanted to make his personality as cold as his powers. he said that in the interview.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:29 am

Out of curiousity, where is this "warm loving personality" shown? I honestly can't remember Bobby acting in a way that really made that aspect apparent.

And it's kinda cliche', don't you think?

And what, exactly did CASEY (not you, not your guesses, or reading into things) reveal about Stacy that Chuck threw out? And where was it stated that having Stacy be a virgin was Casey's original intent?

I'll concede your points to you, if you can give me examples, but I honestly don't remember these things and I usually read pretty carefully.

black mamba · Post by **black mamba** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:21 pm

not as cliche, as being literrally cold with a cold personality to match aswell. sub zero anyone? or being as hot headed as your hot powers johnny storm anyone?

casey had an interview while back where he talked about his depature and drug addiction etc anyway he mentioned in it plans for stacy-x's virginity to be revealed. as for chuck handling of stacy he had her all wrong, for instance in an issue of uncanny nightcrawler had been passed out and stacy used her powers to revive him yet when austen gets a hold of her not only is she all panicky and oh so useless she just huddles warren. he had stacy CONSTANTLY running her mouth saying things in extremely unappropriate situations, although caseys stacy was quite rude she was alot more reserved and wasn't half the attention whore that austen made her. austen then had stacy constantly trying to hump the legs of the closest x-man it became so pathetic she even hit on kurt of all people. also, by the end of caseys run it was clear stacy was going to make a turn around when chuck made her do a complete 180 back to her miss rudeness personality. i could go on but i think i've said enough.

E.M.S · Post by **E.M.S** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:10 pm

Originally posted by Crawler
Out of curiousity, where is this "warm loving personality" shown? I honestly can't remember Bobby acting in a way that really made that aspect apparent.

And it's kinda cliche', don't you think?

I don't have all the issues in front of me but I can give you a few examples of Bobbys' warm personality. Pretty much anything written in the 90's shows this, like him going on the road trip with Rogue. He was worried about her so he tried to be a good friend and help her deal with it.

Or his relationship with Chris Brandley (Bolt.) Even when the kids' temper got out of hand Bobby didn't lose his cool and was there as a friend. Another good 'warm' moment is in the two-part X-Babies arc where he has a heart to heart with Jean. He even shows concern over Dazzler and her baby. As for cliche', I'd have to agree with Black M, it would only be cliche for him to act cold. Heck even CC made a comment about this in Black Sun #3 where Bobby stated that he had a 'warm heart.' To which Lorna agreed.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Wow, I just loved issue#162.

A dark, terrifying story of trust and lost friendship.

I guess [spoiler] Juggy isn't a "bad guy" again and I'm sure he didn't kill Nocturne.-or so I hope.

What did he say to her ?... "Stay down or they'll kill you ?" ??
The scene between Black Tom, Sammy and Caïn was almost unbearable. I love it when tragedy and death strike when you're not waiting for them.
It's the worst and the best way to end the excellent relationship between Squid Boy and Juggernaut.
Man, when Caïn cried, I sweared my comic-book screamed !![/spoiler]

Best X-title this month for me -and I'm a HUGE fan of Claremont and Davis's Uncanny - , along with the Nightcrawler first issue.
I can't wait to see where this story will lead.
I hope it will be the great end of a run I particularly enjoyed.
Chuck, we'll miss you so much...

See you in Action Comics. -yeah Bamfette, I bought issue #819 today.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:19 pm

I understand Sammy had a bit of a cult following for some reason, bet they're pissed, but... gotta break some eggs and all that. this was what he was created for, sadly.

Originally posted by Diablo

See you in Action Comics. -yeah Bamfette, I bought issue #819 today.

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