Astonishing X-Men General Discussion

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Post by Lysistrata »

I loved the first six issues of Astonishing, even though it was far from my choice of team. The second arc seemed a little contrived after the wonder that was the first, but the characterizations kept me picking it up time and again.

The cliffhanger at the end of # 12 was great. It ensured I'll be picking up # 13, whenever they get around to it. I wonder if Emma was talking to Shaw at the end of the first run when she said when the time came, they'd have to deal with Kitty first.

Personally, I find Emma a character I love to hate. I'll miss her when she's gone. She really is a ghastly person, and Joss writes her brilliantly. I think it takes a lot of skill to pull off a really interesting but unpleasant character without also making them a villain. And as for whether she's an agent or double agent, well, I wouldn't put it past Emma to try and play both sides to her own advantage.
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Post by Paty »

:magneto

Absolutely. I think if we say Emma is "evil" we really have to define that. To me, "evil" is a total egocentricity and a willingness to do anything to further oneself... no mater who it hurts ...or HOW!
To me, Emma has character flaws that are either intrinsic... yes, I can believe that some are born with this kind of character flaw... this need to be the one and only... the biggest, the best no matter what or who they destroy...or she developed these flaws over time because of her experiences as a child.
This wouldn't be the first time that childhood trauma has been used as a basis for anti social behavior in the adult. take Magneto, for example.

I think the difference for me between the two of them is that she is egocentric and selfish.. while he is not. Yes, he wants possibly to establish the mutants as a power ...if only to guarantee their safety. I don't think he goes after power just to satisfy his own ego or needs...unless those needs are security based. He is, in many ways, still the frightened child... But, he is not selfish and petty.. and I believe Emma is... and this makes all the difference for me.

I equate evil in humans with selfishness and self aggrandizement. doom is more evil than Magneto. But doom has been a good ruler within his domain... as long as people toed the mark. Not unlike a horrible person, count Vlad Dracul, otherwise known as Dracula, ... the historical one, not the fictional one... if you played by his rules, were honorable and true and honest, you lived without fear of incursions by enemies and had a safe haven in your village at all times. This was unknown in the middle ages, which was a very dangerous time to live in. We have no choice about WHEN we live... and damn little choice about WHERE... and less then than now. so safety within one's village was heavenly... and Dracula was something of a hero in his time... even if he was a terror to the outside world. I sorta equate Doomsie with Dracula ... in many ways. there's good and bad there, too.

But Emma is different. she may not be a world conqueror...but she has a streak of evil selfishness that is palpable... whether it is her own or whether it is being directed by a greater evil force. Actually, it would be grandly ironic if the great puppetteer, Emma, were, herself, a puppet of some greater force... such as the shadow king. How humiliating for her.
I can see her manipulating and brainwashing Scott.. simply because she wanted him and he was married to his life's love...Jean. The rivalry between the two dominant females was interesting to observe when Emma came to the school... and I can believe that Emma would have gone after Scott simply to take him away from her rival...thus proving HER superiority.. at least in her eyes...over Jean. she's not in Jean's power league but if she could steal her husband, she could feel superior to hJean in at least one very important way. and I think this was a motivating factor in Emma... especially at first.
the irony would be that she actually falls in love with Scott. If she doesn't maintain control, he might wake up and see what has happened. He may wake up anyway...he shows signs of chafing at the bit she has placeced in his mouth, as it were. scott is a planner, a director, a natural leader... and she is stealing this from him.. so sooner or later he is gonna break free... and this is what she fears and works to stop. But if she curbs him too much, she will break his spirit and he won't be the man she fell in love with... so she is caught in a grand and viscious cycle. .. a spinning wheel she cannot get off of in one piece... either physically or psychologically.

And Emma's ego won't take that...either the thought of Scott breaking free of her control or the thought of losing what she has come to value.

A rather nasty plight for Emma. Bad enough if she is controlling the whole thing. Worse, if she isn't... because, then, she is a puppet, too... and her ego could not take that....not at all.
there is an occasional glimmer of hope for Emma... and that is her guilt for the deaths of children she has used. If that guilt is real, then she is not evil through and through. If it is feigned, she is as evil as they come. Onlly time will tell on this one.

I am still totally against the relationship. I see it as manipulative and false and it started with adultery... which is in no way condoneable in my book. If you are married, you have made a commitment. You don't go fool around until you get UN married... or separated and not living together prior to dissolving the marriage. and if you DO elect to carry on... you don't do it under the nose of a spouse and/or children... for they are NOT blind or stupid and will surely find out sooner or later... and this wil hurt them more than if you just left and lived apart from them. That the cuckoos told Jean of Scott and Emma's affair tells all. It would have been bad enough for Jean to have found out on her own recognizance... but to have the children tell her... heh... no... that was the kicker.

So... emma is selfishly evil in my book. she is a true bitch. she may don a veneer of civility when it will get her what she wants... but underneath she is just a spoiled, selfish little brat. Not as intrinsically evil as Cassandra Nove, mind you... that character was the one brilliant thing Morrison did to and for the X Men... and he tried to destroy his own briliance in the "future" arc by making her a very unlikely heroine.PTUI!

Can't even leave his own good stuff alone.. sigh...

I wanna see the shit hit the fan when the real Phoenix... Jean... comes back. LOL... and she WILL... it is what Phoenix's DO... it's HOW they live...
Heh heh...

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Post by buri103 »

I love how able you are to analyze personalites like this Paty, even though, you know, authors come along give these characters crazy actions to act out....

And what you wrote about Emma makes me feel better about not really liking her...ok, loathing her. :)

She seems to go to too extreme lengths to insult/alienate everyone around her. Like she has to let the WORLD know "I'm Emma, I'm a badass, and powerful, blah, blah, blah and look how mean I can be."

I never really liked Jean, but at least she seemed to care about others and having common human courtesy. Emma is lacking...

It's just sad to witness and doesn't really contibute to Xavier's dream at all, at
least to me...

At first I thougt she was a sassy, new protagonist and then her cutting barbs just got annoying...now, I can't stand her...it's actually quite sad, she would have been pretty cool, I've always liked sassy, powerful, witty women.

But's she's just a bitch.

Oh, well. Maybe she will die. :surprise

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Post by Paty »

:magneto

Ha... not a chance, I'm afraid. while Emma was the white queen at the Hellfire Club, her nastiness had the kind of bite to it that you expect from a true vilainess. Coming into decent company and the civil courtesy of Xavier's, she really doesn't fit in. this is why her sarcastic, snappy tough girl bullshit doesn't work there and gets old really fast and very annoying. she is like a spoiled brat in genteel company... totally irritating and without socially redeeming value.
supposedly, Morrison did the Scott/Emma pair up because he wanted Emma, who apparently looked like his girlfriend of the time, to represent her. With Emma's nasty demeanor, I think I would have been insulted if I was the girlfriend... unless she is as total a bitch as Emma is. I dunno...

I have heard that Morrison got married... don't know whether that is true... and don't know if whoever he married is the same girlfriend that he modelled HIS Emma after. the Morrisonites want the Emma/Scott relationship to continue so at least SOME of what their little god-writer did will survive, now that his ploy of making the mutants the majority of world population has been busted down to nothing. Big surprise there, but
that whole thing was as destructive to XMen basic concept of underdogs fighting for their place in the sun as the Planet X crap was to the personality of Magneto...although, thankfully, Quesada had stated personally to my old friend Cliff Meth, that the Planet X Magneto was an imposter! Hopefully we can beieve this.. cuz Joey has lied boadfacedly to us before. I am hoping for the best on this cuz Joey hasn't seen hell, yet .. but if he goes back on this... he will..he will...

Since the whole Scott/Emma thing started with baldfaced adultry, I should think Marvel will have no choice but to shitcan it sooner or later. The tenor of the country under the Bush regime is becoming straight laced and puritanical again... so this kind of blatant libertine-ism is gonna come under censure. After all... comics ARE for the kiddies, aren't they?
Marvel had better start watching what some of thesee idiot editors and writers are doing. Of course, I have issues with the maturity level of the editorial staff, too... cuz if there was a mature brain there most of this garbage wouldn't be sullying the pages of Marvel mags!
LOL... but that's another rant, y'know...LOL

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Post by Nandireya »

My God but Wolverine's a slut! He probably knew Kurt had feelings for Ororo, but it didn't stop him flirting with her...he locked lips with Rogue...and now this?

The man's a pig!
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Post by Confizzle »

Originally posted by Nandireya
My God but Wolverine's a slut! He probably knew Kurt had feelings for Ororo, but it didn't stop him flirting with her...he locked lips with Rogue...and now this?

The man's a pig!
Let's face it, the marvel people give Wolvy anything... Jean...sure, Storm...sure...Rogue...sure... Emma...sure...crossovers with various people...sure...your own movie...sure...etc.
The only thing I see that could be good about it is Scott being cheated on... of course it's Logan so he may be used to it by now.:rolleyes
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Post by Diablo »

Cyke and Logan get all the girls. :(
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Post by chicory »

Whoa! :shocked That was unexpected. Please tell me it's a mind-control or AU thing because Logan/Emma is just too much!
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Post by Confizzle »

If Emma wanted body hair she should have gone for Kurt or Hank... :scratch even though Logan could give them a run for their money.
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Post by Nandireya »

Originally posted by chicory
Whoa! :shocked That was unexpected. Please tell me it's a mind-control or AU thing because Logan/Emma is just too much!
I'd say there's something behind it...the Hellfire Club had showed up just before Joss took all those months off, and they'd been whispering in her head for some time before that...maybe it's all part of their master plan...something to get Cyke and Wolvie to take each other out...
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Post by Shadow_Dancer »

Not only does he get to be in just about every X-book at once, but now Wolverine gets all the women too?

Unbelievable. :shakeno
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Post by Blue_Demon94 »

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... gi?id=6461 There's more info about the new run at that link, including some sketches from issue 13
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Post by Confizzle »

Well I enjoyed the twist in issue 14 of the "Wolverine" kissing Emma. I really am enjoying Astonishing, hell, it's even made me like Cyclops, even though I still prefer Emma from her Gen X days.
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Post by kamizzi »

uh, i love logan after meeting with c. nova...
he's such a little kid... :)
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Post by stupidusername »

It seems like this thread has stalled. As you may know by now, the "Logan is a slut" stuff is steming from some of Emma's mindgames where she breaks Scott down to his core, leaving him a veggie without access to his power. (So his eyes are blue, like mine :) ) The more I read about Scott and Emma, the more I understand it. Sure, Scott and Jean were cute, like the high school couple who got married and call each other soulmates. But a lot happened in their lives that interfered with their "happy ever after" including Jean's death, Phoenix, Dark Phoenix, Phoenix's death, Maddy Pryor, Jean's rebirth, his stupid mini-series, and their marriage.

People who like to idolize Cyclops forget that he once abandoned his wife and child for Jean Grey. (See X-Factor) I don't care that Maddy was a clone of Jean or not, she was a person and Scott left her and his son behind. What good, outstanding man does this? Why didn't send for them as soon as he realized he was going to start up X-Factor? Because he didn't want Jean to know about Maddy and Maddy to see that he was still in love with Jean.

Yes, Emma is a b@#tch. She has good reason to be. Her background is a lesson in dysfunction. She used her powers to control her own destiny. She has exploited people and used them for her own purposes. But she also has cared for people, particularly her students, the Hellions. But Emma ultimately looks out for Emma, because she believes no one else will. In Scott, she found the one person she knows she can rely on. The sturdy dependable one. But she also knows his dark side and that appeals to her as well.

For Scott, Emma represents everything Jean was not. Emma had to fight from the bottom, is self-reliant, makes mistakes and has to live with them. Jean was, for lack of a better word, perfect. Her continual rebirth was an aspect of this. Brains, Beauty, Power, Morals, in all things Jean was foremost. At first it was cool, because he felt special for being chosen to be the object of her affection and that she was like him and had to constantly control her powers, but when she started to let go as Phoenix, he realized she wasn't like him at all. She was more.

When he was with her, he had to be, too. So he became perfect, like Jean, the perfect leader, the perfect boyfriend, and eventually, the perfect husband. But Perfection is a heavy burden to carry. Most people who try to be perfect end up saying, "screw this!" And that's exactly what Scott did. Maybe he felt guilty when he was messing around with Emma, maybe he didn't. But it is like he told Wolverine, with Emma he can say anthing and she is not shocked. He doesn't have to be perfect with her. He can have doubts, he can second-guess himself, she doesn't think less of him because she has failed as well. Many times, in fact. Jean may have said she would accept him but there were many things a Jean Grey wouldn't understand, couldn't understand.

When Jean was confronted by her darker side, she created a split personality, the Dark Phoenix, instead of learning to deal with those emotions and thoughts. So Jean/Phoenix could stay morally perfect while Dark Phoenix could destroy and kill. Jekyll and Hyde, anyone? And no matter how much you love someone, how can you be at peace, knowing that under the surface lies this monster? Or deal with the fact that your wife is perfect and can't relate to you, to your growing feelings of inadequacy? So Scott started to shut Jean out. They grew distant.

Enter Emma. Like her or not, you have to admit, there is something sexy about a self-confident, aggressive woman. Think Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct. Michael Douglas knew she was trouble and fell for her anyway.
When she wants something, she goes for it. And Emma is more practical. Is Emma ever gonna make Scott marry her? Heck, no. But is she gonna fight to be the most important woman in his life? You bet.

Like I said, the longer I read X-men (Astonished, X-men, Uncanny) the more I understand the whole Emma/Scott thing. Even after the last few issues and everything that happened, I think Emma Frost is growing on me. Maybe it was that teen Emma Frost series I read. (one of my guilty pleasures, along with Spiderman loves MaryJane) Maybe it was rereading my New Mutants comics or reading her reaction to M-Day in New X-Men. She is a very complicated woman and I for one am interested to see where she goes. Will she ever be a Rogue and completely reform? Nope, I don't see it. But she may end up a Wolverine and control her evil impulses and be an very interesting hero.

What do you think?

[Edited on 30/1/07 by stupidusername]
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Post by idsunki »

I think you pretty much hit this one on the head. Well put.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Excellent post. Kudos!
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Post by stupidusername »

Spoiler alert: Destination-Breakworld

So now we know that the X-man destined to "destroy Breakworld" is none other than our favorite tin man, Colossus. :colossus (It's a few issues old so I don't feel bad about revealing it) Ironically, it is the character that was just resurrected that is the completion of the very first story arc. I guess it shows that Wheldon always planned on bringing Peter back.

But here's my question: just how is Colossus supposed to destroy Breakworld? I mean, he is just a super strong guy with an armored body. How is HE supposed to destroy an entire planet? He isn't Phoenix. :phoenix

What do you think? Just how many different ways could Colossus destroy an entire world? Or is it that everyone is wrong and he is not really the one?

Let the speculation begin!!!!! (I really want to hear your opinions, so pls respond)

(And by the way of nothing, the newest Astonishing X-men TPB is out!! If you didn't read all of the last six issues, pick this up. I think it is called Torn or something like that. reprinting Issues 13-18)

The Astonishing X-men:
:cyclops :emma :hank :kitty :wolvie :colossus

[Edited on 3/2/07 by stupidusername]
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Post by idsunki »

I don't want to spoiler tag my whole post, so if you haven't read the first three story arcs (available in trades at a comic shop near you!) then go ahead and not read this post either. Unless you don't mind a few spoilers.

He could totally punch the planet until it exploded.

More likely we'll get a Greek Tragedy ending to it all - the psychics all predict that an X-Man will destroy their world, so they send Ord to go ahead and 'cure' those pesky mutants.

Ord goes ahead and grabs Colossus's body, resurrects him, and starts testing on him to get the cure (hey, no one else was using him, so...). Colossus is then rescued (in one of the coolest scenes in comics ever) by Shadowcat and then goes back with the X-Men.

Ord escapes, the psychics finally figure out which X-Man is going to destroy Breakworld - Colossus. Ord makes a mad dash back to his planet, the Astonishing X-Men follow him. I'm sure they have some sort of crazy technology they will employ to try and kill Colossus as soon as possible.

So they'll have Colossus targeted with their Giant Death Ray Laser, he'll dodge it (or Kitty will phase him or something), and then the Breakworld guys will be like "Oh snap he was standing on our planet, and he dodged, so there goes our planet. Kaboom."

Tying it back into Greek tragedies, the Breakworlders are trying so hard to avoid this destiny that they end up causing it to occur - a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will.

(hey, at least this has a better chance at happening than when I predicted the big wedding in Uncanny awhile back would be for Juggernaut and Northstar)
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Post by stupidusername »

My favorite part of that post was the "oh snap" part. :D

Greek Tragedy, huh? I'll see your "Greek Tragedy" and raise you a "Superman" plot.
Colossus fights with the leader of Breakworld and by beating him in single combat, he opens the door for revolution which fundamentally changes their society forever and therefore "causes" the metaphorical destruction of their world. How many times has the Big Blue done exactly that? Beat up the leader of the aliens and set them on the path of democracy and freedom.

Or the "Dexter's Lab" plot- "ooo, what does this button do?" Doomsday Weapon, curious older sister, receipe for destruction.
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Post by Slarti »

I’m happy to see this thread resurrected. I’m a bit of a latecomer to Astonishing, after swearing off all the X-books a couple years ago. I actually started picking it up and playing catch-up at few months ago based on Id’s recommendation. Thanks, Id!

My sneaking suspicion also is it’s a metaphorical destruction -- this is Joss Whedon, after all. Either a societal shift on a large scale, as you suggest, or, something that we wouldn’t even consider to be a large-scale change but somehow to this alien world is -- the whole butterfly flapping its wings in China thing. Since he’s one of the most physical of the X-Men, I could see Joss liking the juxtaposition of him using his brains to ‘destroy’ the world.

If Joss has done nothing else with Astonishing, he’s at least made me like a couple of characters I’ve never been fond of – Colossus and Cyclops. Poor old Petey has just always been so boring to me. Nothing but his namesake tin soldier, he was dour, dumb, boring and angsty by turns – I never did get what Kitty saw in him, even when she was a kid. At least in Astonishing his intensity is understandable and we’re finally seeing the end (beginning?) of the thing with adult Kitty.

As for Emma and Scott, I think you’re spot on. I’ve never been fond of either Scott or Jean, specifically because they were boringly perfect in many ways. The few times I have liked Scott is when he’s being a dick, like in X-Factor. Being with Emma (who is a great character) has finally allowed him to be something of an interesting person again. I have to admit I was honestly impressed when I turned the page to the “I don’t have any claws” bit. I appreciate this series is showing us why people actually would follow him as a leader, and that he can be just as strong (if a little nutty) without his powers.

Oh, and in my copy I swear his eyes are brown. I thought canon Cyke had always had brown eyes, it’s just the movie version who has blue?
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Post by JSherlock »

Originally posted by Slarti
Oh, and in my copy I swear his eyes are brown. I thought canon Cyke had always had brown eyes, it’s just the movie version who has blue?
Something I can answer! Yes, Marsden has blue eyes, and every comic book I've picked up has shown him with brown eyes. (Well those comics that show his eyes.) Even the Evolution comic that I have show his eyes are brown. ((So that means I need to change Scott's eye colour in the rp...))
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Post by Slarti »

Originally posted by JSherlock
((So that means I need to change Scott's eye colour in the rp...))
Noooes! Angel likes them blue eyes. :P
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Post by stupidusername »

I stand corrected. They are brown. (darn! I was hoping they were like mine...) So when do you think Scott's going to get his power back? 1 issue? 2 issues?

And where is Cassie Nova? in the blob? In Blindfold? In Hisako?
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