Excalibur General Discussion

The X-Men! Spider-Man, Iron Man, the Hulk, the Fantastic Four, Thor, Captain America, and more!
User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 711
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Paty »

:mags
I don't doubt that Morrison wants the Scott/Emma adultery to continue. He broke up a longstanding relationship between Jean and Scott vicariously so that he could put his girlriend ...who apparently bears some resemblance to Emma... into the book...and he determined to pair her with Scott...whether Scott was a fave character or an alter ego for himself, is questionable.. but what is not questionable is that to do this pairing,he had to destroy the one longstanding male/female relationshiip in the X books! and he did it without a backward glance or respect for creators or characters! He did it for his own self satisfaction and agrandizement.
There was no excuse for this. and it shouldn't be kept if for no other reason than that writers must learn you don't screw up a character to stroke your own ego, impress your girlfriend, or pander to your own self -gratification. These are not your characters to screw with...you treat them wisely and gently and return them whole and unblemished.
Morrison did none of the above...with anybody!
paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto
User avatar
LoneWolf21
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:39 am
Location: Huntington Beach California

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by LoneWolf21 »

Well it's not like this is the first marriage that Scott has screwed up, although if X-Factor hadn' coe up I presume he would have been hapily ever after with Maddie.

Actually, come to think of it, wasn't there some back-up in X-Men classics or something where Chris wrote Jean Grey having an affair with Logan? I think I remember hearing that somewhere...

Oh, and on that Avengers thing, basically it's been speculated that Marvel wants tot urn ito more of a JLA type thing, with the iconic chracters, like Cap, Thor, Wolverine, Thing, Daredevil, Spider-Man, and people like that, Phoenix included. It's just a rumor though.
User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 711
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Paty »

:mags
Hmmmm...
Haven't heard it...ut that is no surprise. I haven't followed the Avengers for years.

Ahhh, tis a sad day indeed when Marvel has to "follow" DC!
LOL

Yeah...Scott didn't have a good record with his women. But his problems, quandries etc in the past were because he was in love with Jean!!! No one else...Jean!!! A bit obsessive, if you ask me..but...
He was married to maddie and had a child by her and off he went when the REAL Jean came back. NOW... did he actually obtain a divorce from her? If not, he is a bigamist as well as an adulterer...not very heroic, Scotty...
I never believed the whining, puling Scott, either...it was a shallow effort to give Scott reason for cheating on his wife of ...how long??? NOT LONG AT ALL..at least in X time..sigh!
So, OK, Scott is no innocent..but until now, his peccidilios were "Jean-related". He was obsessed with her...now he can't wait to get away from her???Noooo..that doesn't work for me...sorry...
Bad characterization...bad storytelling. tsk...tsk...

Did they ever clear up the Maddie situation and the kid? I dunno...I lost track when the eyes blew and i couldn't read comicx for literally years! I didn't get all the X books when I stillcould read, either...so if it happened in a related book, I don't know it...but I bet some of our correspondents here do know it.
Anyone? what happened with Scott's former marriage? Is he a bigamist? What happened to the kid? is he a gutless, heartless, absentee father? ...among other sins?
sheesh...this is getting convoluted. More chos...just what we need...
LOL

Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto
The Drastic Spastic
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1846
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:01 am
Location: ROK

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by LoneWolf21
Actually, come to think of it, wasn't there some back-up in X-Men classics or something where Chris wrote Jean Grey having an affair with Logan? I think I remember hearing that somewhere...
It was written by... oh I'm pretty sure Ann Nocenti. And was not an affair. It was the two of them battling some kind of sewer monster, and Logan taunting Jean about how he was the only one... animal enough for her. Something like that. They may have kissed at some point, or it may have just been the tentacles of the sewer monster binding them into an awkward position.
Und die Sonne spricht zu mir
Nightcrawler ZERO
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: Home= MA School= GA
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

Originally posted by Paty
:mags
Did they ever clear up the Maddie situation and the kid? I dunno...I lost track when the eyes blew and i couldn't read comicx for literally years! I didn't get all the X books when I stillcould read, either...so if it happened in a related book, I don't know it...but I bet some of our correspondents here do know it.
Anyone? what happened with Scott's former marriage? Is he a bigamist? What happened to the kid? is he a gutless, heartless, absentee father? ...among other sins?
sheesh...this is getting convoluted. More chos...just what we need...
LOL

Paty
:mags
Paty- the Kid is Cable. Apocalypse infected him with a techno-organic virus, and to save him, Scott had to hand him over to a time traveller.
User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 711
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Paty »

:mags
Ummmm... OK.. then why does Cable look like Magneto? He doesn't look like Scott or Maddie... he looks like MAGNETO!

wondered where this cable dude came from...LOL Obviously a book I don't have...sigh...

so... what happened to Maddie? Is she divorced? Married to Scott? Dead? Alive and living in...?
Scott's still not off that hook in my book...not yet he isn't...

Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto
User avatar
fuzzy yukon
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:28 pm
Location: cape cod

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by fuzzy yukon »

she's dead ( I think she is. but they might have brought her back) she went all "goblin queen" during inferno and I seem to remember her getting fried, by a demon. however at this point my memory is failing .. so maybe someone else can take the reins on this topic..........
User avatar
msgt
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 1:50 pm
Location: Jenkins KY

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by msgt »

Here are some of my thoughts on the recent revelations

[spoiler]

At first I was really surprised about Magneto being back. I also was sorta surprised by Xorn being back as well.

Like many here know from my posts, I've been a big fan of Grant Morrison's New X-men.

So I'm hesitant about all this. I will definitely have to wait to see how it is explained that Magneto is alive.

If he was still the guy who was infected with Sublime and did all those things in Planet X -then fine. Maybe they healed him.. maybe his head wasn't chopped off.

But why would Xavier heal someone who killed all those people..? Someone who killed what.. Three of his students.. and someone who killed Jean Grey ??

That is what confuses me.

But if it wasn't him at all.. then I don't like it. And I don't understand it.

The Xorn thing surprises me because it was so soon. I know that Bamfette had told us a replacement character was coming... but I didn't expect Xorn (I expected a Colossus-like character). I thought a writer would eventually bring back Xorn.... but on down the road ( like years from now).

I agree with Crawler and Bamfette that undoing Grants run so fast and so soon (in what I mean by undoing is changing elements of Planet X).. then it just doesn't look good. I agree in that who would want to write X-men if this is how its done?

Retcons aren't so good. I think that its better to try and not use them. It makes things harder to follow and it is how things get muddy.


Now, I have to wait and see before I really know what to think about Magneto being back.

Though in Grants Run he had Magneto state many times that he always comes back.

And Wolverine told Jean in the future that "Magneto killed ya under orders he never understood"

You could almost take that to sound like Magneto had come back and didn't know why he had killed Jean. That might be stretching though.

The first thing I thought when I learned both Magneto and Xorn were back (and two different people no less!) was where's Jean!?

I wonder if she will pop up pretty soon or if it'll be awhile before she shows up again. There have been some rumors, but nothing substantial.

So my big thing with this is how they explain how Magneto surived. I thought maybe wolverine just wounded him and that he wasn't decapitated and that Xavier healed him somehow (Warren's blood?).

Warren and Paige were rumored to appear in this book, yes?

Those are my thoughts.

[/spoiler]

Mike
Crawler
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:05 pm
Title: I'm Back, Baby!
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Crawler »

Paty, you state all that as if you KNOW. As if it's hard facts. As if you've heard it first hand, but it's all just hypothetical. It's what you want to believe. It's not FACT. It's not even rumour. It's just your opinion.

That doesn't make it invalid, but it also doesn't make it the truth.

Yeah, there's politics at Marvel. There's politics at every company. But knowing Marvel 25 years ago is not knowing them now. There is very very few people that are still there from that time, so you can only speculate, like the rest of us.

Given that Morrison's stories all tied in an built up from the beginning and that there were things that only added up if he had them planned all along, I find it much more likely that it's MARVEL being petty and destructive now than it is that he was trying to wreak as much havok as possible.

You're angry because "your" character was the one most effected. That's understandable. But it's coloring your opinion to the point where you're irrational. Grant did "bad" to "your" Magneto, so everything he put to paper is invalid. Now it's not even enough for you to have Magneto back through a plot with big assed holes...you want EVERYTHING Grant did to be wiped out.

That's PETTY.

And the fact that no plot point has really been sacred does not make a total and swift wiping of the past 3 years worth of plots right. It does not make it any less damaging to Marvel's reputation within the creative community.

And he "ran for his life" not because of any fan backlash or fear of not being able to "clean up his mess." If you're scared like that, you don't do it. From what I can gather of Grant's character, he's not one to run or to apologize for his work.

It seems likely, from what I know of modern Marvel, that editorial interference frusterated him to the point that he left. And I'm sure that big BIG BIG bucks from DC certainly helped him to make his decision.

And invincible villains cease to be interesting. If the readers know they're sacred, that they wont change and can't die, then why care about them at all?

And people are hypocrites for being mad that all changes are being changed back...because the changes back are still changes? HUH? I guess walking backwards is just as forward as walking forward, eh?

Basically, in the end, you're happy that things you didn't like are getting undone. You don't care how they're undone, as long as they're undone.

And you didn't like the things you didn't like because of WHAT was done, not HOW it was done.

Nevermind that the Scott/Emma relationship developed quite believably and pretty naturally...you don't like it, so obviously it's WRONG.

And, BTW, Jean is DEAD. That means it's no longer adultery, by definition. "Til death do us part..." She's DEAD. You may expect her back, but she's still DEAD. No adultery because there is no marriage.

I'm sick of this. Your argument is the same ham-handed argument that's making everything revert to 5 years ago. It's what's keeping people from telling good stories. Why even put effort into something if it's not going to matter?

It doesn't matter HOW something is told, it only matters WHAT happens...and if you don't like it, then get someone to undo it...and it doesn't matter HOW it's undone, as long as it's undone. You want to confuse people, you tell them that everything they've read for the past 3 years never happened and give some convoluted explanation.

And Marvel "wants new readers..."

And, when you're the writer, the characters ARE yours to screw with. You're the writer, you're the God of the characters' world. That's how it is.

Do you really want to read about a bunch of characters that do not change and have no real threats because they must stay "unblemished"? That makes them invincible and stagnant and I just wouldn't care.

Or do you just not want them to change in any bad way? Who's to say what's good or bad? And eventually, if they only change in good ways, they'd all be living perfect lives, right? Again, where's the interest in that?
This message brought to you by the letter C.
Zack: I'm pretty sure our soul is composed of a series of toy commercials that ran from 1984-1988. When we die Hasbro does with us what they please.
solomon
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:34 pm
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by solomon »

First off, I want to say that normally my reaction to something like this is that immediately retconning another writer's story smells of a big "FUCK YOU!!!" I - like many other people - believe you have to build on what comes before you, no matter what. Otherwise, you have an unruly mess.

As much as I don't like it... I can understand exactly why it is being done.

The rumor I've heard most often is that Marvel essentially screwed themselves by signing Morrison to a contract where he would not be subject to any editorial AT ALL. They couldn't contact him. They couldn't change anything (during his run). They couldn't tell him to change his direction. I'm all for writer freedom, but look at what happened...


1.) Emma Frost - fiercely independent, predatorial, Boston-born and raised - suddenly developed a British accent out of nowhere.

2.) Cyclops - ALWAYS the tactician, despite everything going crazy around him - taking a back seat to Jean Grey.

3.) Jean Grey, the most powerful telekinetic in the world - who has flown for light years in outer space without a suit OR a "cosmic entity" and stabilized a STAR - can't fly herself and Wolverine out of an asteroid that is veering toward the sun.

4.) Jean Grey - who flew inside and telekinetically stabilized a star - cannot screen out the intense heat of our own sun.

5.) The Phoenix - who reformed itself and Wolverine on the edge of the sun which radiates magnetic energy that makes the earth look like a raindrop - is killed by a magnetic pulse to the brain.

6.) Jean Grey had no clue Cassandra Nova had taken Prof X's place... or that he was inside of her body. Even when Cassie Nova left the solar system.

7.) The Phoenix "White Hot" room... I'd best not get started.

8.) Magneto - who was not only paralyzed, but vaporized - reappears walking in the Planet X saga.

9.) NYC gets trashed and the Avengers, Spiderman, Daredevil, and the Fantastic Four still don't have a clue.

10.) Beast/Sublime turns telekinetic by injecting himself with Phoenix blood.

11.) Magneto - now a psychotic drug-addict with a split-personality who can read magnetic fields - gets blasted in the face and decapitated by the X-Man who is most vulnerable to him.

12.) Magneto - a leader whose philosophical views were gaining credibility - blows it all to get a cheap attack on Xavier and raze New York. And WHY?

13.) Genosha which contained the highest mutant population in the world was wiped out in the morning by a sentinel attack and not only did no one see it coming, but they had no defenses whatsoever.

14.) Cassandra Nova - a miscarriage - develops outside of the womb. Mind you, Xavier is in a cloned body that is YEARS younger, but he looked exactly the same age as she did. Without any training, practice, or allies whatsoever, she's formidible enough to mess over two of the world's most powerful telepaths. She not only understands sentinel technology, but she knew the keys to it. Well... not to mention the whole thing about her being around for HOW LONG and Xavier didn't have a clue she was around?

Grant's run doesn't smack of editorial interference. His stories got to play out. Joe Kelly and Steven Seagle had to abandon the Psi-War and change EVERYTHING in the middle after they had already set the seeds in place. On Claremont round two, he started the Neo and in the MIDDLE of the story had to drop it and do something else because they didn't like the direction. Mind you, the beginning had already been out and published. Kitty was being taken to the Neo. He didn't get to finish any of that. He never got to explain the Jean Grey/Betsy Braddock switch. That was all CHANGED on him.

Even Lobdell - and mind you, I didn't like his writing - had planned to have Magneto come out of nowhere at the end of Zero Tolerance and start World War III. I didn't like Lobdell's previous use of Magneto, but you can't deny that Zero Tolerance - funded by the U.S. Government - attacking and killing mutants for no reason would be enough to get him coming out with guns ablazing. Well, that was stopped and we got the anti-climactic ending where Bastion just gave himself in. And Jubilee having been captured and messed with was just brushed beneath the rug. Again, change in direction.

I've seen no evidence of anything like this in Grant's run. Where he should have got his shirt tails yanked, he DIDN'T. Either that was because an editor wasn't doing his/her job or because the editor could NOT do his/her job because of the contract with Morrison.

This isn't to say I didn't like any elements of Grant's run whatsoever. Xavier and crew being outed and forced into the spotlight was probably the best idea ever, because they actually had to deal with society and public perceptions head on rather than behind the scenes which they had been doing for years. The implications of the Genosha massacre (regardless of how it was handled) had GREAT potential which is only now starting to be realized. And mutant nation or not, the world's governments would be DAMN scared if a weapon like that were unleashed and would no doubt have been hunting down the source. The logical step would be a realization that sentinels were more dangerous than ever. (Well... not to mention that there was also a sizeable human and mutate population that was wiped out as well.) Some of his ideas were damn good... but the execution - while "fresh" and "different" - was flawed.

Xavier's main enemy - whose view was not even necessarily in conflict with his own - was taken out in a completely implausible and out-of-character way in a story that defied all logic. His prize pupil was wiped out even worse. And this Xorn/Magneto business without any explanation whatsoever... and while I won't go to the point of saying that it was deliberate sabotage, it does look AWFULLY fishy when the X-Men's greatest enemy dies in such a manner inconsistent with his characterization and continuity. If it were a well-detailed, well-thought-out story where Magneto's death had meaning - other than to make Sublime look more like a badass - then I might have a problem... But Magneto's death had nothing to do with his viewpoint or his relationship to the X-Men or the "dream." I can understand exactly why it is considered character assassination. Morrison can write MUCH better than this, but chose not to. That's what irks me.

So, as far as I'm concerned, I don't mind Marvel saying "Fuck You, Grant" and doing whatever they need in order to get some kind of sense out of the whole thing. They have to adjust things where they CAN move on and get the franchise back in order. And really, I think it is too soon to say for good "They're undoing everything in his run..."

Emma and Scott are still together, Genosha's still a crater, the X-Men are still more public than they've ever been, Mutantdom is in the public's face, and the kids are still at the school. Even with the change to Magneto and Xorn - which I still feel is justified - the effects of Morrison's run will be felt for years to come.
The Drastic Spastic
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1846
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:01 am
Location: ROK

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

If you're going with the idea that the only characters that matter are Xavier, Magneto, and Jean, yeah, I can see why Marvel would "have to" straighten things out. But come on, they've all three of them been done to death. Literally, on numerous occasions. I could happily read X-Men until the end of my days without ever seeing any of them again. Been there, done that. Let's freakin' move on already!!

The whole mutant concept has SO MUCH POTENTIAL and here we are reading fucking reruns. I think THAT is why Morrison did such a thorough job on killing Magneto, and set it so Jean couldn't return for 150 years. "Flawed vision" or not, and even though the change didn't bloody take the guy's got a point. When the book at the top of the sales list is as stagnant and boring as X-Men it's got to be having an effect on the rest of the industry. ENOUGH ALREADY. Excalibur could have been a neat little spin-off, but now it's just going to be another reprint, with a new artist and slightly tweaked dialogue.
Und die Sonne spricht zu mir
solomon
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:34 pm
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by solomon »

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
If you're going with the idea that the only characters that matter are Xavier, Magneto, and Jean, yeah, I can see why Marvel would "have to" straighten things out. But come on, they've all three of them been done to death. Literally, on numerous occasions. I could happily read X-Men until the end of my days without ever seeing any of them again. Been there, done that. Let's freakin' move on already!!

The whole mutant concept has SO MUCH POTENTIAL and here we are reading fucking reruns. I think THAT is why Morrison did such a thorough job on killing Magneto, and set it so Jean couldn't return for 150 years. "Flawed vision" or not, and even though the change didn't bloody take the guy's got a point. When the book at the top of the sales list is as stagnant and boring as X-Men it's got to be having an effect on the rest of the industry. ENOUGH ALREADY. Excalibur could have been a neat little spin-off, but now it's just going to be another reprint, with a new artist and slightly tweaked dialogue.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Hold on. I never said that I thought Grant Morrison's vision was flawed. On the contrary, I thought his ideas were great. I thought his EXECUTION of those ideas was flawed. As I and others have pointed out, there were plotholes and major continuity gaffes so huge that a sentinel could fly through.

It's not so much THAT Magneto died, but HOW he died. For a character so significant to the entire X-Men mythos, his death had nothing to do with what he represented or his side of the dream. The only reason Magneto and Jean died was for the SAKE of them dying and to make Sublime look like one sneaky son of a bitch. As the "other pole" to Xavier, that was a slap in the face to everything. His death made about as much sense as Fantomex walking up to Xavier and shooting him point-blank between the eyes with a plasma cannon. The only reason to do something like would be to 1.) kill Xavier and 2.) make Fantomex look like a badass.

This isn't to say that things should not change. Of COURSE they shouild change. (And Morrison DID make some lasting changes.) There has to be a REASON for the change. Just killing Magneto and Phoenix for the sake of killing them - and removing that opposing viewpoint for good - is NOT a reason, especially given the extraordinary circumstances and that Magneto wasn't even acting as himself at the time.

Psylocke died protecting her teammates. Colossus died to save mutantkind from the Legacy virus. (Even though it would have made more sense to sacrifice a Madrox clone.) Phoenix/Jean died in order to keep her lack of control and corruption from destroying everything she held dear. Cypher died trying to protect Rahne. There was a REASON.

Magneto - a more significant and symbolic character than any of them - died for the sake of change and to make another villain look like a badass.

As for Excalibur, it was never meant to be "just a little side book." It was meant to be Xavier stepping out of his school and taking his dream from behind the desk/wheelchair to the people MOST in need of it - the survivors of the Genosha massacre. Even before the slaughter, they had never really had it brought to them. Now, Xavier is trying to do it and seemingly without help from anyone else on any team (for now). This direction is bolder and stronger than anything X-Men has EVER taken, especially with the star being the guy at the center of it all who had mostly stayed inside of his school and directed everything behind the scenes. Now he's down in the thick of it.

And regardless of whether or not you agree with the return of Magneto and Xorn, you cannot deny that the premise and idea behind Excalibur is something that has grown DIRECTLY from Grant's run. Xavier's disillusionment with his own dream, his need to take it to the very people ignored and left out, and his doing it on his own is something that could not have happened AT ALL had the events of Morrison's run been undone, as people are claiming it is.
The Drastic Spastic
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1846
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:01 am
Location: ROK

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

The second paragraph wasn't so much directed at you, Solomon. ;)

Excalibur not meant to be just another side book? How many people are actually going to read it? I'd be surprised if it sold as much as X-Treme did. I always considered X-Treme to be a side book even if it was actually a core title.

And I guess the whole Magneto thing comes down to how important you think he is. It's one of those agree to disagree situations. I can just shrug off the "character assassination" cause I've never found him particularly interesting. I didn't see anything wrong while I was reading it. He was cracked out on drugs. Bound to be a acting a bit nuts, a bit less than a criminal mastermind.
Und die Sonne spricht zu mir
Rivka
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:59 pm

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Rivka »

Originally posted by Crawler
Paty, you state all that as if you KNOW. As if it's hard facts. As if you've heard it first hand, but it's all just hypothetical. It's what you want to believe. It's not FACT. It's not even rumour. It's just your opinion.
Well, I'm not Paty, and I hope I remember how to work the typing commands, but I'll answer.

What Paty says is highly informed opinion. You and Bamfette and others in your Morrison-worshipper club are being fed just as many falsehoods and hype and personal opinion. You don't know what Marvel politics is. And your source is sadly misinformed about a lot of things. Stop bashing Claremont.

Yeah, there's politics at Marvel. There's politics at every company. But knowing Marvel 25 years ago is not knowing them now. There is very very few people that are still there from that time, so you can only speculate, like the rest of us.
You don't know them either. YOu think you do, but you don't. All you're doing is trashing anything that is done by Marvel, or published by Marvel, that isn't Grant Morrison.
Given that Morrison's stories all tied in an built up from the beginning and that there were things that only added up if he had them planned all along, I find it much more likely that it's MARVEL being petty and destructive now than it is that he was trying to wreak as much havok as possible.
That is simply silly. What in the heck does whether or not Morrison planned everything all along, (which he didn't) have to do with that ridiculous assertion Marvel is being "petty and destructive"? The current Marvel writers are many and varied, and they are contributing to the Marvel Universe, which is still a shared universe. They are going to produce the best work they can, and tell the best stories they can. In order to do that, they have to fix some of the mess that Morrison left behind.

There is no other way to tell good stories in the future, about the X-Men, other than to undo what Morrison should never have been allowed to do in the first place, destroy the very core concept of the X-Men.
You're angry because "your" character was the one most effected. That's understandable. But it's coloring your opinion to the point where you're irrational. Grant did "bad" to "your" Magneto, so everything he put to paper is invalid. Now it's not even enough for you to have Magneto back through a plot with big assed holes...you want EVERYTHING Grant did to be wiped out.
I can't answer for Paty, but I don't want everything Morrison did wiped out. And not everything is being wiped out. In fact, much of the structure Morrison left is being respected and played off of. Other things he did are unworkable, destructive of the X-Men core concept, or don't fit in with the shared universe, and are being fixed.
That's PETTY.
Actually, the most petty people I've ever seen are Morrison followers who refuse to move on, now that he's left the X-Men. But Paty is never petty -- she's looking at this from the point of view of Marvel, and what needs to be done, in her opinion, to make the books viable again. If I understand her correctly.
And the fact that no plot point has really been sacred does not make a total and swift wiping of the past 3 years worth of plots right. It does not make it any less damaging to Marvel's reputation within the creative community.
But no one is wiping out all of Morrison's contributions. On the contrary, I think the current writers should be commended for playing off of some difficult material very well. If you want to look at destruction, look at what the Harras/Nicieza team did to Claremont's work of 17 years when he left a dozen years ago.

Claremont is respecting Morrison's ideas MORE than Morrison did! Morrison threw out stuff, to see where it hit the wall, but Claremont took a lot of this and is making a gourmet meal.
From what I can gather of Grant's character, he's not one to run or to apologize for his work.
You don't know anything about Grant Morrison's "character." One of the things about some of Morrison's most fanatic followers is how they call him by his first name, "Grant" like they know him, and claim to know what he thinks. He himself has said that he's amazed at all the crap he's read about himself online, and he doesn't mean just from his critics, either.
It seems likely, from what I know of modern Marvel, that editorial interference frusterated him to the point that he left. And I'm sure that big BIG BIG bucks from DC certainly helped him to make his decision.
Then, you know nothing about modern Marvel. Your current source of information is over-emotional and feeding you a lot of hooey. Grant Morrison had NO editorial interference. None. The editors were forbidden to do a thing, though they finally did start inserting things here and there after Morrison left, but while his final two story arcs came out. Morrison had NO one telling hiim what to do. When management saw "PLanet X" -- especially the part about the "crematoria" -- they were shocked, and as one said, "I wanted to hit someone." But no one stopped Morrison from doing whatever he wanted.

Claremont, on the other hand, was interfered with FAR MORE THAN Chuck Austen, no matter what the latter thinks. He had characters yanked away from him, , he had whole story arcs changed, moved, cancelled. If Chris Claremont has more freedom now than he has had since his glory days on the title in the 1980s, then MORE POWER TO HIM. He deserves it! He's the best writer to bring Marvel back old readers and recruit new readers.

I don't however believe Marvel will let him do whatever he wants. They won't give him the freedom they gave Morrison, more's the pity.

The anti-Claremont bashing you get from his fellow creators is worse than from the fans. It's a lot of BS, I'm telling you. I've been through this before, since 1998 and onwards. I've known my share of Marvel pesonnel and I don't care how cuddled up with the INSIDERS you think you are, you are NOT. Because you are wrong about what's going on.
And invincible villains cease to be interesting. If the readers know they're sacred, that they wont change and can't die, then why care about them at all?
Don't know what this refers to.
And people are hypocrites for being mad that all changes are being changed back...because the changes back are still changes? HUH? I guess walking backwards is just as forward as walking forward, eh?
No, sweetheart, Morrison fanatics have been attacking people for the last three years whenever anyone complained about the changes Morrison was making, by saying, "Change is good. You people are old-fashioned. You people are stupid and stuck in a rut. You can't accept change." Now, a new writing team, a new direction for the X-books comes along, and Marvel has every right to change what the previous teams did, and Morrison fanatics are screaming, "Oh, the horror, how dare you change one thing that the great Grant Morrison did." It's complete hypocrisy.

If you want to follow the X-books, live with the changes. Live with the fact that Morrison is gone. Otherwise, drop the books and go away and shut up about it. I've had to live with changes for years I couldn't stand. Are you saying, that Paty and I and others who have really suffered for over a decade with the way our favorite characters have been portrayed, let along with the anti-Semitism that existed under the Harras regime, can't have a time when things go our way for a change? Live with it. Deal with it. This is the way the X-books are now, and for a lot of us, indeed for thousands and thousands of fans who were driven off by years of horrible X-books, RELOAD, and the new EXCALIBUR are the best thing that has happened in years.
And you didn't like the things you didn't like because of WHAT was done, not HOW it was done.
Says who? Paty usually is very consistent, not only do we not like what was done to the Marvel universe, the characters, and the books, but the way it was done as well -- the decline in storytelling skills. Morrison simply ceased to be an effective storyteller for general-age superhero comics by the end of his run. His last arc was nearly incomprehensible.
I'm sick of this. Your argument is the same ham-handed argument that's making everything revert to 5 years ago. It's what's keeping people from telling good stories. Why even put effort into something if it's not going to matter?
Whoa, the only people keeping writers from telling good stories is the writers themselves, who can't tell good stories. Nothing is reverting to the way it was five years ago. Whedon, Claremont, and the others are all building on the good things from Morrison's run, and changing those things that don't work. One of the worst things Morrison did, and it was NOT what he originally planned on doing with the character, was what he did to Magneto and New York City.

Charles Xavier was made into a complete fool by Morrison. I do not see at all the reaonsing of some in this thread about Xavier and Magneto, if Magneto is alive and something else is going on with Xorn.

Read the entire story-arc before you make your pronouncements about what is going to happen. There is nothign more important, relevant, and magnificent to the X-books than the Xavier-Magneto relationship and dialogue. Magneto and Xavier are the yin and yang of the X-Universe, the fulcrum around which the entire X-Universe revolves. Morrison had no patience for it, he wanted to remove it altogether. But that was wrong -- and Marvel and Claremont are going to fix that.
It doesn't matter HOW something is told, it only matters WHAT happens...and if you don't like it, then get someone to undo it...and it doesn't matter HOW it's undone, as long as it's undone. You want to confuse people, you tell them that everything they've read for the past 3 years never happened and give some convoluted explanation.
No one is undoing all of Morrison's run. Geez. If Paty wants that to happen, it's her opinion. It's not going to happen, so calm down. And as to the importance of "how" something is told, I couldn't agree with you more. It is important "how" a story is told, which is why Morrison failed so badly as a writer on X-MEN. He progressively became more and more dense and incomprehensible and his writing became more and more flawed. For exapmle, I think if he'd written "Planet X" better, without all the plot holes and stupidities and lack of logic, there wouldn't be such a need to change and fix things. You have to plug those holes -- future comics need these things to be fixed.
And Marvel "wants new readers..."
Yup, and they're going to get 'em too! Comics need to be understood by the general public. They need to celebrate superheroes and the X-books need to celebrate the X-Men core concept of shared humanity, at the same time dealing with the issues of human interaction, and the definitions of "good" and "evil" and other subjects Claremont (and Lobdell, Kelly, Seagle, Davis, and many other writers) have handled so well.
And, when you're the writer, the characters ARE yours to screw with. You're the writer, you're the God of the characters' world. That's how it is.
No, when you are the AUTHOR, and have created those characters. When you work for a company that owns pre-created characters, you have to follow certain company parameters. It's the way it works. If you want to work on a company-owned project, you should expect some constraints.
Or do you just not want them to change in any bad way? Who's to say what's good or bad? And eventually, if they only change in good ways, they'd all be living perfect lives, right? Again, where's the interest in that?
Well, I want Magneto to be restored to a complex, important, noble man beset by personal demons -- that's who the character is. He goes through changes all the time, though, and I think Claremont is going to tell us why in future issues.

I also want to see Charles Xavier as the complex man he is as well! He is not a saint! He is a great man, a hero, because he has a dark side as well. Claremont knows all this, Claremont is going to write one heck of a great book with EXCALIBUTR!
Tatu
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:02 pm
Location: deadworld.

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Tatu »

Originally posted by Rivka
You and Bamfette and others in your Morrison-worshipper club are being fed just as many falsehoods and hype and personal opinion. You don't know what Marvel politics is. And your source is sadly misinformed about a lot of things. Stop bashing Claremont.
You are also so sadly misinformed and blind it isnt even funny had you payed any attention to anything that had happened on this board you might have actually noticed .. that oh I dont know .. Neither C or Jill are "Morrison Worshippers" .. Actually I believe they've done everything to defend Chuck and other creators FROM THEM. So before you go on about others why dont you get your facts straight first?

I didnt even LIKE New but its there, it exists, it was written.. you know what.. you said it best yourself "If you want to follow the X-books, live with the changes. [...] Otherwise, drop the books and go away and shut up about it."
Call me King!
Crawler
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:05 pm
Title: I'm Back, Baby!
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Crawler »

Originally posted by Rivka
Well, I'm not Paty, and I hope I remember how to work the typing commands, but I'll answer.

What Paty says is highly informed opinion. You and Bamfette and others in your Morrison-worshipper club are being fed just as many falsehoods and hype and personal opinion. You don't know what Marvel politics is. And your source is sadly misinformed about a lot of things. Stop bashing Claremont.
I said nothing to bash Claremont. I didn't even mention him in that post. I'm defending creators' rights by saying that wiping out everything a creator did is a bad idea. Creators' Rights are something that at least Dave should feel strongly about...

I am not a Morrison-worshipper. I've critiqued his work heavily, in fact. And I've also thumped quite a few of the people that think you're not allowed to like anything else if you like Morrison. So your little label doesn't apply.

You're trying to impose a bias on my to take wind out of my argument, but it wont work because it's UNTRUE.

How, exactly, is Paty highly informed? If she can tell me who tells her things and how close they are to the CURRENT company, then you've disproved my argument. But the sheer wildness of her conspiracy theories leads me to believe that she is no more informed than anyone else. Prove me wrong.

And I'm not being fed ANYTHING. I do have sources within the company and have their views of company policy and politics. It's not completely unbiased, since no second-hand information is...but it's CURRENT and accurate as those people see it.

My sources ARE NOT sadly misinformed simply because what they say doesn't line up with illogical and outlandish conspiracy theories.
You don't know them either. YOu think you do, but you don't. All you're doing is trashing anything that is done by Marvel, or published by Marvel, that isn't Grant Morrison.
I'm not thrashing anything. I'm asking Paty to be responsible. She has power here because of who she is. It is IRRESPONSIBLE to spout theory and hypothesis as FACT.

And I don't claim to know exactly what's happening at Marvel. Paty does. The fact is that we're probably somewhere around the same level of knowledge as to what's going on inside the company. And my info may even be a bit more up-to-date.
That is simply silly.
No. A huge anti-semitic conspiracy involving half of Marvel is silly. Thinking that a writer could have planned ahead more than an arc is NOT silly.
What in the heck does whether or not Morrison planned everything all along, (which he didn't) have to do with that ridiculous assertion Marvel is being "petty and destructive"? The current Marvel writers are many and varied, and they are contributing to the Marvel Universe, which is still a shared universe. They are going to produce the best work they can, and tell the best stories they can. In order to do that, they have to fix some of the mess that Morrison left behind.
They're not fixing it from a lot of our perpectives. Yes, Morrison left some really bad loose ends. He destroyed New York. That's HUGE.

But they're not really tying that up. They're erasing a lot of what Grant did. And "Oh...that never happened." is an unsatisfactory explanation to me.
There is no other way to tell good stories in the future, about the X-Men, other than to undo what Morrison should never have been allowed to do in the first place, destroy the very core concept of the X-Men.
How the hell did he destroy the core concept of the X-Men? It was about tolerance and acceptance...and, so far as I can tell, that hasn't changed. He destroyed NOTHING.

And you're saying that the writers are varied and talented...yet can't figure out a way to start from where the books are NOW...they can only start from where the books were 3 years ago?
Actually, the most petty people I've ever seen are Morrison followers who refuse to move on, now that he's left the X-Men. But Paty is never petty -- she's looking at this from the point of view of Marvel, and what needs to be done, in her opinion, to make the books viable again. If I understand her correctly.
Again, I'm not a Morrison follower. And I am fine that he's gone. I don't believe that his work was the end-all-be-all of the series or anything. I outright disliked some of his work on the series.

I'm saying that cheering people on for undoing someone's work and for taking a step back instead of moving forward is NOT what the books need to stay viable. Making creators not want to work for you is not making the books viable. Convoluted explanations to undo something you didn't like is not making the books viable.

More later.

And, again, I'm not bashing Claremont.

I'm saying that moving backward is silly in a company that sees itself as progressive and that this will come back to bite them in the ass.

And that Paty is stating theory and rumour as fact and that is irresponsible and unacceptable.

Maybe I was a bit blunt or a bit harsh, but I'm sick of every thread turning into Paty spouting off about how Morrison sucks or how he clearly wanted to destroy not just Magneto but Marvel.

PATY is the one that wont let it go. I thought that this would all stop went Grant was gone, but she STILL rants about how horrible he was.
This message brought to you by the letter C.
Zack: I'm pretty sure our soul is composed of a series of toy commercials that ran from 1984-1988. When we die Hasbro does with us what they please.
solomon
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:34 pm
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by solomon »

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
The second paragraph wasn't so much directed at you, Solomon. ;)
Man... I feel like a class A moron! D'OH! I understand your point, though. X-Men has suffered from YEARS of stagnation. To undo elements of an author's run is definitely a regression. (And the constant regression has been a reason for the comics not moving forward...) In my opinion, though, the Magneto change is a necessary one... in order for things to get to a point where it can move forward again. I think that part right there is where most of us disagree.
Excalibur not meant to be just another side book? How many people are actually going to read it? I'd be surprised if it sold as much as X-Treme did. I always considered X-Treme to be a side book even if it was actually a core title.
Well... only one issue has come out. Keep in mind X-Treme took a little while to get its stride. And to be honest, I considered X-Treme more of a core book than Uncanny was. (Um... no offense meant to Austen and supporters...) When X-Treme first came out, I remember reaction being pretty... evil at first. I think once Excalibur picks up, the fan base will as well.
And I guess the whole Magneto thing comes down to how important you think he is. It's one of those agree to disagree situations. I can just shrug off the "character assassination" cause I've never found him particularly interesting. I didn't see anything wrong while I was reading it. He was cracked out on drugs. Bound to be a acting a bit nuts, a bit less than a criminal mastermind.
Yeah... You're right. It's a case of agree to disagree. And to be honest, the last GOOD Magneto I read was before Fatal Attractions and all that mess came about. (Well... AOA Magneto was pretty good too, but he's not the one that counts!)

Of course, I'm probably the only one out there who is still pissed at the New Mutants (vers. 1) for treating him like $#!+ when he was their headmaster!

Now if only I could get Claremont to write Jubilee again, then I'd be one really happy guy....
User avatar
Gambit~Iceman
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:14 pm

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Gambit~Iceman »

Forget about bashing creators, we're bashing each other's heads in. We all have different opinions, and ideals. However that's our opinion and we are alllowed to have one. Except when someone has an opinion that doesen't jive with ours, the first thing we do is bash them. Instead of agreeing to disagree, we just bitch about it like hate mongers. At the end of the day these things are nothing more then pictues and words on a piece of paper. It's a flipping comic book for crying out loud. We all have our favorite creators, and not so favorite. Just as we have favorite story lines, and not so favorite ones. And my favorite creator may not be yours, and yours most likely isen't mine. But why complain about it? Who cares, I think everyone needs to step off and take a breather. Things are currently happening, some people like it, and some don't. But you don't have to bash the ones that do, or the ones that do you don't have to bash the ones that don't. End of story.
You can be pushed just so far, until one day the man has to claim what is rightfully his!
Bamfette
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 3278
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Bamfette »

C wasn't bashing anyone. see the rules: TheRules.php
6. Rumors and Fact are different things. Please don't state rumors as fact...and really all you have to do is qualify your statement with an "I heard that..." or a "I think that maybe..." Believe me, it'll save us some confusion.
Paty, and i don't have anything against her, was not doing that. We've let her conspiracy theories go in her and Dave's forum, that forum is hers to do with as she wishes. but she comes into the main forums, she has to abide by our rules, one of which is that you must qualify something like saying Marvel or Morrison is intentionally destroying a character with proof and sources, or saying it is your OPINION, and not FACT.

and I am NOT a "Morrison Worshipper", so don't try and paint be with some bias which i don't have. I dropped the book during Assault on Weapon Plus, for crying out loud. Though i did really enjoy other stories, like Riot. and i don't get this taking sides attitude, anyhow. even if i was a huge fan, why does that negate me liking the other writers? why can't i like Grant, and Chuck AND Chris for what they as individuals bring to the books? their approaches all differ, but each has things I enjoy. each has things i don't enjoy. that's the way of things. I AM however pro creator. wether i liked some of his work or not, Morrison had fans. a lot of them. they don't deserve to have stories they enjoyed summarily erased 2 issues after his run is over, any more than any other fans deserve to have their favourite run erased. just because YOU don't like it does not make your opinion more valid, you're on the same level as them. Morrison also has the right as a creator to not have his work undone. now there's writers out there seeing this happening, and thinking to themselves that they wont work for Marvel until management is changed because they don't want the same thing to happen to them. If i was a writer, i sure as hell wouldn't want to work for them. why bother even trying if they're just going to erase your work the second you're out the door? that's bad business for Marvel.

and you say Chris has had stories yanked, characters yanked etc, like Chuck HASN'T? what-ever. every single point you list and more has happened to Chuck and to others as well. and i am not saying it is Chuck alone, either. I'm not trying to paint him as a victim of the company, since it happens to everyone there. some have had it a lot worse than him, and it's been made quite public. some have had it better. but it's just that's the only first-hand source of information i have. though yes, Grant had more freedom than most others because of his contract, and i am sure Whedon probably has a similar deal. but Joe Casey had the same kind of contract as Grant, and believe me, Marvel exercised their right to control the books under his run. It wasn't iron-clad. It happens all over. Marvel, (especially the X-Offices) is extremely heavy-handed, editorially. especially when you hold up DC (specifically the Superman offices) for a comparison.
The Drastic Spastic
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1846
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:01 am
Location: ROK

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by solomon
Well... only one issue has come out. Keep in mind X-Treme took a little while to get its stride. And to be honest, I considered X-Treme more of a core book than Uncanny was. (Um... no offense meant to Austen and supporters...) When X-Treme first came out, I remember reaction being pretty... evil at first. I think once Excalibur picks up, the fan base will as well.
But... but the issue numbers of X-Treme were so much smaller! :toothy
Und die Sonne spricht zu mir
solomon
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:34 pm
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by solomon »

*ROFLMAO* Well... yeah... when you put it like that... teeheehee...
User avatar
Dark Bamf
Lookout
Lookout
Posts: 791
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:00 am
Title: The Creator
Location: Belton, South Carolina

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Dark Bamf »

:mags
deary me...what a brouhaha...and me wih my comute down and having o use Dave's Imac...pray for me...
I am never petty or irrational. I am highlly opinionated and analytial. knno how Marve works I know i's intrigues and it's politics. and I tlk to people wh hae been there recently...even if, admittedly, I he not. It hasnnn't chnged.
Now, yes my opinins are my oopinions. I see clearlly what is being done and has been done ad I ty to understand not oy what was done but how and why...because youkno what? It immpacts a company I loved and stilllove. Not just one character...the whole company! And particularlly the X books since Dave and i have a history with them.
But I hellped to protect Marvells interests when I was there...it was part of my job...and old habits die hard.
I never said that I haated everything Morrison did. I have stated often that his creation of Cassandra Nova was brilliant...she was an omega class villain! But he couldnn't even leave that alone... he tried to do aClaremont on her and make her "cassie" a good guy...yeah...
Do I wish Morrison had had more of a sense of corporate responsilinty with the charactes he gutted? sure.Do I think that a lot of what he did needs to be changed...yeah, I do...just as HE thouht characters needed to be changed. well, he had his chance...and blew it so badlly that it has to be fixed. He dealt a lslllicinng blow too Marvel's carotid artery...the X books... and you want Marel to smile, and go on, ignoring the amage until it bleeds to death? Obviously the powers that be think some surgery is necessary to save the patient.
So do I. And not everything is gonna be changed. Most of Morrison't stuff is still extant. The ollly thing thathas really changed is that Magneto...the REAL one, is back! That most of the books are ignoring what he did to NY isn't Claremont's fault...or mine...it is Morrisonnn't ...for not coordinating with the other books in the shared universe.
What is done in the books is nowhere as immportant as HOW it is done! I have aways said that you can do anything with any chaacter...as long as it is in character and logical. I have always said you can change a charaaacter...as long as you do it logicaly and plausibly...Moorrison didn't. He changed arbitarily and wantonlly. A lo o people...not onlly I,... have problems with that.
Yes, I am Jubilant tht Mags is back. I think that one change was absolutely necessary to salvage not only Magneto but Xavier...whose character I donn't particularly like... as well. there ae other characters I think need to be brought back into line, too..only time will tell.
And Crawler...it is only YOUR opinionthat the steps that have been taken are steps backward...not forward. Marvel is moving o..as it always does. If a writer builds well and constructs diligentllly...as Cllaremont did for eighteen years, it is harder to tear down their strucures...but people hav tried to do it. .. starting from the moment he left. That he had not left them gapiing plotholes to use to do so is a testament to his ability as a writer. that Morrison left so many plotoles that all writers have to do is spin a bottle or fllip a coin to pick one is a testament to Morrioonn's skill as a writer.
I have always said tht I thought Morrisoon is perfectllly capable of telling good stories. I just donn't think he bothered to do so on at least half of his run. The first half maade some interesting inroads and stirred uup interesting pathways that, if pusued well, would have or could have enriched the X mythos. Cassandra Nova was brilliant. and ultimatelly stupidlllly abused by her own creator. And Yeah...that's my opinion.
You don't agree? Fine...your choice.
I don't try too put words iin your mouth or twist what yoousaay to make it seem you are saying something else.
That''s a plooy of the Morrisoon followers over myriad boards.
We donn't play these silly games. We are too old for them....That's the royal "we"" , kiddies...Crawler seems o hink for some reason that my word carries more weight than anyoe eslses here. I don't. I have certain experiences, learned certain tuths in my life which I try to bring to bear to understand not oonly what is happening but how and why.
Yes, I am naking some guesses...bt they are educaated guesses. Sorry if they ofend people's sensibilities...happy if they make sense to others who may have snippets of the same experiences and may be drrrawin he same conclllusions...or nearlly so.
But in the end, the snarling and growling at each other is moot. We don't do the books...Marvel does. and Marvel will do what it wants...or needs... to do. The people who were once jumping for joy while others cried ane now crying and moaning hile he former weepers are singing and throwing confetti.
So what the hell is new?
Just doon't ccallme irrational and petty... I am neither. And I am never emmmotional as some others...I am good with trauma..I get real cold and analytical and I take field notes for later consideration.
Plllanet X was trauma for me. I got emotionnal for a day. then I got analytical about what happend, how it happened and , possiblly, WHY it happened. I a sstillexploring the latter. Coldly... anallytically. For marvell's sake.
Morrison doesn't matter...he's gone. In all probability, sooner or later a lot of his ftuff will be changed because it was destructive to the corporate image built up for certain charaters. I am onlly unhaaappy thtt it happened to begin with...but that doesn't make me irrational or petty...it just makes me concerned for Marvel's well being as a company whose main function is to tell stories and entertain people...not shock them..not pllly them with sex and violence and goor... entertain...as in make you laugh, make you thrill to heroics, make you cry, make you think and debaate and ulltimatelly understand a concep you hadnn't previously.Conntinuing ccaped soap oopera...fun and heroics...not blood, sex and bigger explosions.
Ijust want comic books back..and I finally think I see 'em coming...
Excallibur 2 is onlly a month away! A month is forever...

Paaty
:mags
...sson't worry, Crrawler, I won't muck up your OPEN forum for a while.. my computer is down and typing on Dave's is an exercise in masochismI will not repeat often...I'm not into that kind of self abuse...
'I'm in love, I'm in love with Atilla the Hun--
Atilla the Hun, Atilla the Hun.
He may pillage your village and kill everyone
but I still love Atilla the Hun.'
--Atilla's Hunny
Crawler
Navigator
Navigator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:05 pm
Title: I'm Back, Baby!
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Crawler »

Paty. It is an open forum. It is.

But you have power here because of who you are.

Do I really need to quote Uncle Ben?


I may have been a little harsh and a little reactive in my post...but I was just fed up with it.
This message brought to you by the letter C.
Zack: I'm pretty sure our soul is composed of a series of toy commercials that ran from 1984-1988. When we die Hasbro does with us what they please.
Shadow_Dancer
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Seventh Heaven

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Shadow_Dancer »

Originally posted by Rivka
If you want to follow the X-books, live with the changes. Live with the fact that Morrison is gone. Otherwise, drop the books and go away and shut up about it. Ive had to live with changes for years I couldnt stand. Are you saying, that Paty and I and others who have really suffered for over a decade with the way our favorite characters have been portrayed, let along with the anti-Semitism that existed under the Harras regime, cant have a time when things go our way for a change? Live with it. Deal with it. This is the way the X-books are now, and for a lot of us, indeed for thousands and thousands of fans who were driven off by years of horrible X-books, RELOAD, and the new EXCALIBUR are the best thing that has happened in years.
I second Rivkas opinion. I gave up the X books for a while, after being a long-time reader, because I simply didnt enjoy them anymore. They are supposed to be a form of entertainment. I took them back up again because I had been assured that my favorite character (Nighty, of course) was going to be returned to the personality I once loved. I patiently waited to see if Austen would do it, but I found the Draco arc a complete disappointment. I look forward to CC doing what Austen failed to do, and that is bring back the swashbuckling charming Nightcrawler.

Although I am not a Magneto fanatic, I have always found him one of the most intriguing villains in the whole of comic books, more of an anti-hero than a true villain. Morrison completely lost that take on Magneto, and with it his uniqueness. Somehow the X-Men would just not be the same without him.

Now Claremont is back and restoring things to the way I enjoyed them years ago. You can say I’m in rut as well (and I couldn’t care less), but at least reading these books is entertaining again, and I wouldn’t mind my own teenager reading them as well. I can’t truly say that for some of the issues that have been printed in the last couple of years.

My opinion is that if Marvel wants an edgy, controversial book that consistently pushes the envelope in every issue, then they should start another title and not use one of the core books of the X universe, particularly Uncanny. I do understand there are those that like it that way. Then provide them with a title that gives them what they crave, but dont mess with a classic.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream." Mark Twain

Shadow Dancer's Fanfic Archive Image
User avatar
Lord_Magneto
Lubber
Lubber
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 5:07 pm

Excalibur General Discussion

Post by Lord_Magneto »

I finally read the issue and I have to say I loved it.
Chris gave us a great insight to what truly drives Xavier and if it really is [spoiler]Magneto on the last page, it only makes it better. I hated "Planet X" and the way Morrison wrote Magneto, and I hope Chris will bring back The REAL Magneto who has been hiding ever sincer
X-men #3.[/spoiler]
"I know … something of grief. Search throughout my homeland, you will find none who bear my name. Mine was a large family and it was slaughtered – without mercy, without remorse. So speak not to me of grief, boy. You know not the meaning of the word!" Magneto, In Uncanny X-men #150
Post Reply