New X-Men General Discussion

Nomad X · Post by **Nomad X** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:44 am

That was Morrison's last issue, right? So it's safe for me to add the title back to my pull list, now?

Magik the Darkc · Post by **Magik the Darkc** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:26 am

Yes, issue # 154 was GM's last. I actually liked HCT. It might have a lot to do with it being an future alternate reallity and so not important to the 616....Next up are the Austen 2-issue fill ins, and then we get Austen on a regular basis (I know, sound weird huh?).
I loved Austens first couple of issues on Uncanny, but I found them getting worse by the issue. Come reload, I'll try his first X-men arc, but if it is not to my liking, I'm dropping the series.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:05 pm

I'm quite skeptical about one thing. Just because Cyke quits the X-Men, everything falls apart ? Come on ! The X-Men are stronger than that. In Morrison's mind, it seems Kurt, Ororo, Kitty, Warren, Bobby,... don't exist ! Henry wouldn't have been alone to run the school.

Some good news : Now, with this explanation, it seems we'll be able to see Jean Grey again -yes, she's now a goddess flying along with her new "phoenix people" friend, BUT she prevented this dark future to happen. It will take a long time to see her again, but now I've high hopes. Her daughter Rachel came back to the present. She can also do it !

Same story with Magneto -WHAT has Jean changed exactly ?? Perhap's she has somehow resurrected Magnus too.
Yeah, I'm a dreamer...

Concerning Sublime, it's like : Haha ! Cassandra Nova did it all... no, wait, it was Magneto !... No, wait once more, it was really Sublime who controlled everybody and who was in fact a virus... Pfuh !

msgt · Post by **msgt** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:52 am

New X-men sure had its load of mystery.

I will miss GM a whole lot. I really enjoyed his stories. I can honestly say that I enjoyed every issue of his run (yeah even the stuff people didn't seem to like so much like Fantomex and Assault on Weapon Plus).

I can't say that about any other x-run. Usually there are just parts of run that I really like, but with GM I've enjoyed them all.

His issues are re-readable and everytime you read through them you find something you didn't notice the first time you read the story.

I also liked what he did with Jean. He really put the Phoenix back in with Mrs. Jean Grey.

Now the Scott and Jean story has a new hurdle.. but I'm glad it seems to be ongoing (so says the Letter Page).

So maybe Jean will show up in Astonishing? I don't know.. but I do know one that I was surprised about [spoiler] Rachel being back[/spoiler] I was hoping she was a thing of the past.

I hope I enjoy Astonishing as much as I have enjoyed New.

Mike

Sister Midnight · Post by **Sister Midnight** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:00 pm

Any word on where Jubilee will be appearing? The only thing I've heard is that Claremont says that she's "spoken for".

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:04 am

Not having read the last issue personally, I'm going on what reviews I've read. The entire Xorn/Magneto issue still makes no sense...did a disembodied Magneto some how possess Xorn? How did Magneto (as Xorn) do some of the things that he doesn't have the ability to do?

Plus, now knowing that according to Morrison/Marvel editiing, Magneto was possessed by Sublime, why didn't the Phoenix go that extra few steps back in time and avenge a murdered person? Face it, Wolverine murdered Magneto. Something should be done about that . I know that Magneto wasn't in his right mind, but murder is still murder. Magneto is a neccessary counterpoint to Xavier, storywise and a very popular character in the on-going mythos. You would think that in its omniesent wisdom the "Phoenix" would have seen fit to return to life some one who was wrongefully murdered.

oh well....

mightiest_mortal · Post by **mightiest_mortal** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:19 pm

Originally posted by Panz
Not having read the last issue personally, I'm going on what reviews I've read. The entire Xorn/Magneto issue still makes no sense...did a disembodied Magneto some how possess Xorn? How did Magneto (as Xorn) do some of the things that he doesn't have the ability to do?

NAh Xorn was Magneto all along. He never actually healed anyone.. apart from the micro sentinels.. and Charles spine ( but that was with the sentinels)
Even the issue with his monologue where he went around healing was written as a letter to Xavier. If you reread the whole run its all there.. just nobody realised it was him before then.

msgt · Post by **msgt** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:58 pm

Hi Panz,

What was explained with the last issue was that Kick was actually a form of Sublime.

So all those who used it was infected by Sublime.

Wolverine tells Jean that "Magneto killed ya.. under orders he never understood."

If thats not the exact quote its pretty close. I don't have the issue in front of me.

Mike

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:09 pm

Ok, thanks you guys...my bank account can't put up with me getting all of the titles

so I end up doing a lot of guessing from what other people say online.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:41 pm

Originally posted by Panz
Not having read the last issue personally, I'm going on what reviews I've read. The entire Xorn/Magneto issue still makes no sense...did a disembodied Magneto some how possess Xorn? How did Magneto (as Xorn) do some of the things that he doesn't have the ability to do?

There never was really a Xorn. It was Magneto pretending. And yeah, it was pretty clearly planned all along, as the evidence is all there when you go back and read the issues before it was revealed.

Whether Xorn was Magneto under Sublime's influence or if that influence came later is still up for debate.

I'd like to believe that the swing in Xorn's behavior that lead to the revelation that he was Magneto was the point where Sublime gained control and that Magneto originally had something else planned as Xorn.

Plus, now knowing that according to Morrison/Marvel editiing, Magneto was possessed by Sublime, why didn't the Phoenix go that extra few steps back in time and avenge a murdered person? Face it, Wolverine murdered Magneto. Something should be done about that . I know that Magneto wasn't in his right mind, but murder is still murder. Magneto is a neccessary counterpoint to Xavier, storywise and a very popular character in the on-going mythos. You would think that in its omniesent wisdom the "Phoenix" would have seen fit to return to life some one who was wrongefully murdered.

Well, for one thing, why would Morrison end his run with a "Oh yeah...and everything I ever wrote never happened." ? He wouldn't, and that's why the Phoenix only undid the future part of his run.

Pretty clearcut and logical line, IMO.

And I don't believe that the Magneto-posessed-by-Sublime thing was because of any editorial pressure. If you read the run from beginning to end, it all makes pretty good sense and seems to be planned all along.

It took forever to get to it, and you kinda had to be patient, especially if Weapon Plus and Planet X kinda lost you like they did me. (Lost me in the attention/interest department, not the knowing-what's-going-on department)

And it's HARD to seem like you planned something all along, even if you actually DID plan it. So many things get left out or edited out or changed that plans, especially long, drawn out ones like this, often never see fruition in any satisfactory way.

A lot of the people pissed at how out-of-character Magneto was are now pissed that it was explained well. Don't get that.

I just think that the whole run was rather nicely tied up at the end and made room for Whedon rather neatly. Pretty satisfying end, in my opinion. And believe me, I had some BIG doubts about where it was all going over the past year or so.

The Drastic Spastic · Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:57 pm

Say... who/what is Sublime? I don't think I've seen this answered anywhere, maybe it's really obvious and I just forgot. And yeah, kinda odd that I only just realized I have absolutely no clue.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:31 pm

:mags:
Hi guys and gals...
sorry I have been away from the board...got fifty thousand boxes to unwrap, open and find places for before the "hot" season comes in!
LOL

I did manage to riff through New X Men 154. Beautiful Silvestri art...the rest was incomprehensible blather trying to tie up storylines and explanations that should have been whole arcs in their own right. typical...fractured and puerile...explaining nothing. At least it's retconnable...plotlines with such gaping holes are easily dealtwith by competent writers.
And I hear corporate reaction to the Planet X arc has been rather explosive itself. The movie people must be livid..and rightly so. The movies, wildly successful... are based on the Claremont ...eighties... X characterizations. Now this radical drek comes out when they are releasing the tapes and DVDs and they cannot reconcile the movie characters with the ones in the books.
I have been in this business since the mid seventies...and I have never seen such an unholy mess. From every angle.
Thank goodness it is over. Morrison is gone to DC...and I weep for DC. They better watch themselves over there...and not give him enough rope to hang a flea! Or they will be sorry.
I am sorry, people...you all know where I am coming from...I will never forgive Morrison for Planet X. I will never forgive the people who let him do it either...or the ones who helped him to do it...for there are factions at marvel who wanted the eeevil Magneto ...and got it in spades.
The witch is heartily displeased. Woe betide them.
I do look forward to whatever new teams take over on the books. Nothing could be as horrivble as the last tow arcs...or as destructive. If Marvel continues to be this uncaring of it's properties, it deserves to go down in flames...and will do so without a doubt.
I just hope they wise up a bit and let Claremont rebuild the X Empire he helped to create and maintained for close to twenty of Marvel's most lucrative years!
And you know something? That is what drives it all. Money. Not sotrylines...not characterizations...Money! Unless Marvel realized that the continuity of it's characters and the continuity of their characterizations is paramount, then Marvel will not have anybody to sell that wonderfully lucrative merchandise to! A huge part of the fans who stayed with their fave characters for over thirty years have left...with good reason. With a little luck and a lot of publicity, they might get them back. I don't know if corporate Marvel is intelligent enough to recognize the fact that they need them. But they do. The older fans have the bucks to buy the merchandise for their kids as well as themselves.
I wish I could say that Marvel has the financial acuity to understand this...but but I cannot say that. They have proven they are clueless. Now we can only wait and see what they do at this critical juncture.
I am hopeful...but cautious in my hoping...it's Marvel, after all. If they can screw it up...they will. History has proven this, if nothing else!
Paty
:mags:

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:02 pm

:mags:
Well...didn't the Prof and Kurt have a nice little chat in one of the panelled rooms of the mansion during the time of the HCTF issues? at the end of the Draco arc? So when was this supposed to have happened? before the mansion got rubbleized? or after? or during the rubblization? C'mon, give me a clue here...
since GM didn't choose to clue anyone else in on his plans for the destruction of the X men, no other books reacted with any degree of continuity with this story arc...not to mention the incongruity of the art throughout the arc...which leads me to believe that the arc is bogus...the storyline flawed so badly that it has to be retconned for Marvel to continue to be able to use the highly merchandisible characters...like Jean and Magneto. Marvel cannot do anything else logically...not and still retain the use of these characters and repair the image of the other characters that Morrison trashed.
He didn't drag Kurt into it until the future arc, but he tried to trash his image too...or hadnn't anybody noticed? At least from what I can gather...those "nightcrawler demons" weren't the nicest of guys, were they? sigh...
the whole Planet X thing made me sick to my stomach and had no socially redeeming value whatsoever...not even as a story....a fantasy nightmare! That Morrison tried to seal it in concrete and hamstring the writers that followed him by immediately segue-ing into the future a century and a half so that the characters he trashed so royally couldn't be used again for that time span opened him up to massive retconning.
Subsequent writers will want to use the characters he killed or trashed...and management has said that these characters are to be brought back into proper line. The problem is not readily fixable if it is fixable at all. If Marvel wants to cut it's losses they will have to retcon the whole mess...start over with the characters at a point at least before Planet X or even farther back...undoing or radically changing what the Morrison fans think their leader was trying to mumble.
such widescale "fixing" is gonna make Morrison junkies irate as hell, you betcha! It was OK for him to "change" everything...but all of a sudden, "change" is verboten! bad! cuz it is happening to "Grant's characters!"
Which , of course, they are NOT! His characters, that is. In the run of X history, he is an abberration...a cery destructive flash in the pan whose work cannot hold a candle to long years of character development put in by other, more talented writers. Yeah...the run had shock value...it also had schlock value..or devalue. But to bemoan others changing GM's work when he so radically and destructively changed the work of others who had formed these characters before him is ludicrous at best and obsessive and crazed at worse. change happens in the biz.
As the old say ing goes..."MARVEL MARCHES ON!!!"
Yay! so now the fans who were gnashing their teeth throughout the Morrison run are smiling and hopeful and the Morrisonites are bemoaning their fate ...or at least the fate of the Morrison gospel. Of course, they have no one to really blame but Morrison...cuz he is the one who left them high and dry in X ville...now, didn't he?
Y'know, way back in the prehistoric days of Marvel, we had fans who were passionate about certain characters...the Dr. Doom Lady, the Jean Grey fans, even the Vision and Hawkeye lovers. then when Claremont gave Mags a real backstory and a reason for doing what he was doing you had a whole slew of people who gravitated to this charasmatic portrayal of a controversial figure...and storylines that had shades of gray and complexity of real life intruding that made them sooo interesting.
These days I see cults forming around the writer...the charasmatic or offbeat writer. This is weird to me. It's not about the writer or even the artist...although either can turn you off to a story ... or ON, as well... the whole thing is about the storylines and the characters...the ongoing story of these characters and how their lives unfold...how they deal with the problems thrown at them and how the lessons learned in these stories can be brought to bear on problems the reader is facing...or to broaden the reader's understanding so that if a similar problem pops up in their life, they can approach it having thought about the similar storyline and it's conclusions ...and could Those problem solving approaches work in real life?!
there was nothing positive about the Planet X arc..or even the future arc. They were both destructive to the Nth degree. Yeah, they changed a lot of things...but all they taught us in the end was how stupid Marvel was to let it happen. It was a blueprint for how to destroy a solidly built universe..how to create as much havock as possible and then skip out.
A blueprint for literary terrorism.
Admittedly I haven't see chuck Austen's interim issues of New...but I look forward to reading something coherent for a change. I know that stability cannot be reached overnight...you still have piles of improbable rubble to explain away or deal with...but having hit the lowest point possible...short of Marvel closing it's doors forever... you have only UP to go as a directional choice. You could sit an elephant down at a typewriter and go UP from Planet X!
Here's to a brighter, more readable future for the X folks. Here's to the REAL Magneto showing up and saying "What the F...?"
the real X future dawns brightly...perhaps not as brightly as some of us would wish...heh heh...but much better than the dank pit we have just crawled, kicking and screaming, out of.
I for one, look forward to Austen's New issues. they may not be all I would like...but if he tries to fix ANYTHING that is better than nothing...and if he succeeds in writing as well as he can write, the story should be interesting and readable, if not a total balm for our wounds suffered at Morrison's hands.
what goes around, comes around...it is an old country saying...and never more true than right now in X dom. Change happens kiddies...you can like it or bemoan it...but it is gonna happen whether you like it or not...and this is a great lesson for everyone to learn. so now we are back on track...doing what storytellers are supposed to do...teach life lessons.
And that's what it's all about...
Paty
:mags:

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:22 am

A retcon isn't change. Its sloppy writing, and one of the biggest reasons why comics aren't taken seriously today.

Going back to the way things were five years ago isn't change either. Its stagnation, and its bullshit. At least Grant and Casey and at times even Claremont attempted to write new stories over the past couple years, but that's all being thrown out in the face of "classic greatness".

So why even read anymore? This title will never, ever change. I could read the next issue, or I could come back a hundred issues from now, and the same damn characters would be in the book. The same stupid storylines would be repeated over and over again. And no writer will be able to truly write the way he wants because editorial bullshit will force him to adhere to the story in another book that he's not writing, or force him into the latest crossover of the week.

X-Men is not worth reading anymore, not because of what Grant did, but because of how readily Marvel is willing to ignore his, and anyone elses ideas for how to move this franchise forward, rather than keeping it mired in the past. I've dropped all X-titles, and I highly doubt flashy costumes are going to be what brings me back.

The Drastic Spastic · Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:14 am

Originally posted by Paty
Y'know, way back in the prehistoric days of Marvel, we had fans who were passionate about certain characters...the Dr. Doom Lady, the Jean Grey fans, even the Vision and Hawkeye lovers. then when Claremont gave Mags a real backstory and a reason for doing what he was doing you had a whole slew of people who gravitated to this charasmatic portrayal of a controversial figure...and storylines that had shades of gray and complexity of real life intruding that made them sooo interesting.
These days I see cults forming around the writer...the charasmatic or offbeat writer. This is weird to me. It's not about the writer or even the artist...although either can turn you off to a story ... or ON, as well... the whole thing is about the storylines and the characters...the ongoing story of these characters and how their lives unfold...how they deal with the problems thrown at them and how the lessons learned in these stories can be brought to bear on problems the reader is facing...or to broaden the reader's understanding so that if a similar problem pops up in their life, they can approach it having thought about the similar storyline and it's conclusions ...and could Those problem solving approaches work in real life?!

People don't die in real life? Completely leaving out the "character assassination" angles, how is bringing them back like real life? Yeah, it sucks if it's someone you like but in real life, they're not going to just come back the same as they were before. So why should they in a "lesson for life"? What we need here is better memorials and more showing how characters deal with the deaths of people close to them. What are people going to learn from a retconned resurrection?

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:11 pm

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw

So why even read anymore? This title will never, ever change. I could read the next issue, or I could come back a hundred issues from now, and the same damn characters would be in the book.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. X-men is a serial, relying on familiarity to keep readers coming back for more. To turn it on it's head would alienate those readers which keep the title alive, and should only be done in the most desperate of circumstances.

And no writer will be able to truly write the way he wants because editorial bullshit will force him to adhere to the story in another book that he's not writing,

That's the way the world of comics works. The marvel universe is one univers, with all the characters reacting to major events in that universe. Dow we ignore the Holocaust because "America' is a different book than "Europe"? It's unrealistic to have people in the same world ignore the major events of that world.

And it even gets more complicated when you consider that some books share characters. Should Amazing Spiderman ignore events Spectacular Spiderman, because acknowledging what happened to THE SAME CHARACTER in a different book may not fit one writer's vision? Also, with three X-men titles coming out of the mansion, would it be okay if two didn't focus on the fact that someone destroyed the mansion, went on to conquer New York, and then killed a major member of the X-men before finally being taken down?

Do you complain that TV writers are required to keep their scripts down to 21 minutes? Or that movie writers can have their works edited by directorial and budget mandates?

Writing in a collaborative media, especially using characters owned by a third party, means that sometimes the writer's vision does have to be adjusted to meet the needs of their patrons. If you don't want to deal with that, stick to novels, indy films, and self-published comics.

Winged Outlaw · Post by **Winged Outlaw** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:14 pm

Originally posted by Nightcrawler ZERO
Originally posted by Winged Outlaw

So why even read anymore? This title will never, ever change. I could read the next issue, or I could come back a hundred issues from now, and the same damn characters would be in the book.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. X-men is a serial, relying on familiarity to keep readers coming back for more. To turn it on it's head would alienate those readers which keep the title alive, and should only be done in the most desperate of circumstances.

So lets say, hypothetically, that readership was in the millions about a decade ago. And now, equally hypothetically, the very top selling books are selling in numbers that would have gotten these book cancelled back during those times? You think that's at all desperate?

This familiarity crap has only hurt comics in the long run. Without new stories that allow for new readers to gain interest in the books, more and more people will just stop reading after they get to a certain point and there's gonna be no one to replace them. The endless recycling of stories is absolutely killing the comic book industry, and while purists who dont want anything to change will be happy in the short term, in the long term sales will suffer and more books will be cancelled.

And no writer will be able to truly write the way he wants because editorial bullshit will force him to adhere to the story in another book that he's not writing,
That's the way the world of comics works. The marvel universe is one univers, with all the characters reacting to major events in that universe. Dow we ignore the Holocaust because "America' is a different book than "Europe"? It's unrealistic to have people in the same world ignore the major events of that world.

No one should have to read every book in the Marvel U for them to enjoy a story. Its possible to let things happen without tearing things out of other books. Anyone who actually does go through each book and marks down every inconsistency... needs to get a life.

And it even gets more complicated when you consider that some books share characters. Should Amazing Spiderman ignore events Spectacular Spiderman, because acknowledging what happened to THE SAME CHARACTER in a different book may not fit one writer's vision? Also, with three X-men titles coming out of the mansion, would it be okay if two didn't focus on the fact that someone destroyed the mansion, went on to conquer New York, and then killed a major member of the X-men before finally being taken down?

So wait. Do you want every book to be perfectly in sync or not? I'm confused. I dont care that the events in NXM didn't correspond directly with all the other books. Mostly because NXM 154 was written a lot earlier than the other issues. I dont see why Grant should be under any obligation to conform to what the other books are doing. Xtreme has its team in a different part of the country altogether, and Uncanny is probably in hell again or whatever.

I find it even better that NXM didn't have to warp its stories around UXM or XXM because at the time, I wasn't reading those books, because in both the writing either bored me or sickened me (guess which is which). All books should be individually accessible. That way, I dont have to put up with a book I dont like to understand a book I do like.

Do you complain that TV writers are required to keep their scripts down to 21 minutes? Or that movie writers can have their works edited by directorial and budget mandates?

Apples and oranges. I'm not talking about the length of a comic book here, I'm talking about it being new and creative. There are plenty of TV shows out there doing just that. Movies too. Granted, not as many as I'd like, but that's neither here nor there. Budget and time constraints are no excuse for putting forth the same story over and over again.

Writing in a collaborative media, especially using characters owned by a third party, means that sometimes the writer's vision does have to be adjusted to meet the needs of their patrons. If you don't want to deal with that, stick to novels, indy films, and self-published comics.

So if I want to read X-Men, I'm forced to read the same crap again and again? That's like buying Pay-Per-View for re-runs. Writers like Joe Casey and Grant Morrison told some of the best stories of the last two years by trying to do something different. And lets not forget, the reason X-Men is so successful today is because Chris Claremont came in, threw away all the old rules, and came up with something immediately unique and enormously entertaining. X-Men got the readers because they wanted to see what Chris would come up with next.

By your logic, all we need to do that is rummage through the back issues.

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:16 am

Well, I the majority of that post was in response to your comment that writers shouldn't have to conform to continuity from other titles. The impression i was getting was taht you were saying writers should be able to ignore things that they didn't write, even if it logically should affect their characters. I also agree that we shouldn't be required to collect 10 different titles to complete a story arc, but when major, world changing events strike the marvel universe, they should be treated as such, and recognized in other titles. The Planet X comments was to put things in perspective- You are obviously a big fan of Morrison's, and I propsed that as a question to you- what if his most status-quo-shattering arc was ignored by writers who didn't think it meshed with the stories they wanted to tell? What if the X-mansion was whole in Uncanny and X-Treme, Charley was still running the show, and Jean and Magneto were sipping Tea in the Cerebro/a chamber?

My other comment about not wanting to see characters change- we watch the X-titles go through extreme highs and lows, in art, writing, and editorial- but what is it that keeps us coming back? Strong characters that we care about. Imagine being stranded on a desert island for 5 years, and then returning to find that the X-men have been killed off, and the new team consists of Wolverine, Beak, Dust, Carter, and Slipstream. Not saying these are bad characters..... and they could even be X-man material with a few more years of development. However, without Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Storm, and all of the other great characters created throughout the ages, would you come back? Things should change, but there should always be something constant, to keep it familiar, and give us a base for lifelong fandom. And I think that is the characters. They should remain true to their core, no matter what changes they go through- and there should always be some classic characters who have stood the test of time ready to greet fans every month.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Sat May 01, 2004 3:45 am

:mags:
Absolutely.
We know what robin Hood stood for...who he WAS. King Arthur, guinevere, Lancelot, merlyn...we know them all. the details of the stories swirling around them may change our perspective, but they don't change the characters. They have core concepts that remain the same even if you change extraneous details and points of view. The same story told from Arthur's point of view is going to be different told from Lancelot's.
but the character's are old friends...we know them and invite them back into our lives time and again.
It is the same with the X men. The characters have core personalities. You can tell stories around these characters...you can let them see and understand new truths...but they must react as their core personality dictates...and all the avant guarde writers in the world do not have the right to arbitrarily destroy the core of the characters.
scott, for example, is an icon of strength, loyalty, purpose. Now it is concievable he would get tired of being the one in charge all the time...but it is inconcievable that he would take up with a slut like Emma...committing adultery . He would suffer in silence..he might talk to the Prof...but he would never so betray his friend and lover of many years, Jean...whom he has loved since he met her and whom he finally won. they only got married a short while ago, Maaarvel time, y'know. Unless... he was subverted and coopted by Emma's power. Now, Emma's character was a manipulating bitch as the white queen of the hellfire club...and she hasnn't changed at all. She is still a conniving, unprofessional...as a counselor or therapist...maneuvering, greedy little bitch. And this comes through very storngly. So what is any writer doing pairing Scott with Emma? Except that RBM wanted his girlfriend in the comic in a major way...
PTUI
Change in a character's life is a constant. But the long time readership wants the reactions of the characters to ring true to what they know of these characters. Their reactions to individual threats and their interactionwith each other only make sense if their core characters remain constant. If you don't know how a given character reacts, how can you play a different menace against him? How can you build any story around him? You CAN change a character...slowly and logically. Morrisondid none of these things. He whopped us over the head with change for change's sake as if he were laying about with a two by four!
If a character simply would NOT do certain things...like Scott committing adultery ..under any circumstances...then to make him do it for stupid reasons or no reasons at all is merely destroying a character...not making him grow. this isn't storytelling...it is character assassination. A smart company will not let a pipsqueak like Morrison destroy their bread and butter characters...Marvel is stupid...monumentally so. and the only way to salvage the situation which they have apparently realized, at last, that is out of control is to do some heavy fixing. A smarter move would be to make it an unreal thread...a seperate reality...a fever dream of Xavier's...a bad pizza dream of Hank's...or some such.They are not, for some obscure reason, doing this..so we will have to live with the "fix" but that is gonna CHANGE things too, isn't it?
Now, I wonder why people who scream for change are so adamantly against change when it happens to what their fave writer has done. It's change, isn't it? It may be change back to what it should have been all along...but it is change...so what's the beef? huh?Oh...it's change to YOUR ideas of what's right...not ours...
but guess what...thousands upon thousands of fans who had been loyalfor thirty years and better left because of Morrison. Marvel wants those fans and their money back...since a good percentage of the Morrison groupies will follow their little tin god to wherever he goes. A good number of them will no longer be buying X books because the wonderful Morrison isnnn't writing them. good. Go away. good riddance. Maybe we can get ten times the fans back now that some sanity is returning to the books. We'll see, won't we?
It may take time because Marvel, for some unknown reason ,isn't doing it's giant hoopla dance and word will have to spread and the characters will have to start acting like themselves again...instead of crazed freakoids...but with any luckat all, some of those fans will come back. Let's hoope so. Let's hope irrepairable damage hasn't been done to the fabric of Marvel in general and the X books in particular.
Paty
:mags:

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:06 am

I brought up the entire question of is Scott still married to Jean or not on ComiX-Fan today and got quite a few people discussing it, eventually Chris (Claremont) did come on and add his well spoken two cents to the topic, which I think, Paty agrees with what you and I are saying somewhat.

(quote from Chris Claremont)
Actually, it's my understanding that the generally accepted requirement -- in the absence of a legally valid death certificate -- if 5 to 7 years before a person can be declared legally dead. And isn't it only unconsummated marriages that can be annulled?

In Scott's case (or Jean's, depending on perspective), you'd need a legal determination of death (which, given the history of the Phoenix, might prove a real wrangle) or a petition for divorce (abandonment, mental cruelty, the "A"-word).

Hope this helps.

Cordially,
Chris Claremont

I haven't like Scott much since the whole Maddy episode. I wonder where Whedon is going to take him.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:20 am

:mags:
Yeah... I have heard that he favors the Scott/Emma thing...but cannot say for sure. I hope not.that whole thing is still adulterous...I don't care what anyone says. and doing it in front of children...the cuckoos knew about it, for cry eye! they're the ones who alerted jean to the infidelity... I mean.. I could understand if they had been married for a while... drifting apart... that sort of thing. but how it was done really sucks.. no pun intended...sigh...
I would like to see blame put right were it belongs... at Emma's door. scott is not an innocent in this... he did participate...but i think emma's power had a lot to do with it and he was emotionally vunerable and she took unprofessional advantage. she is a real sicko character in my book. she wants what she wants... she'll get what she wants and it doesn't matter who she hurts.... In this case, Scott is the one who will get it up the old wazoo...don't ya know?
Paty
:mags:

Panz · Post by **Panz** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:41 am

Well, sadly, the man is usually the one that takes the blame, even when it is patently not thier fault. I am a little surprised that they are letting this thing pass. Marvel has made some noise about the "new" direction that the company is heading and the return to an all ages format, and I am by no means a prig, but Scott playing tonsil hockey with Emma all over the place while still married to Jeannie (Who we all know will be back before the summers out

) is kinda un-cool and I wouldn't want my pre-teen kid to get the idea that it was ok to do that. I know that Grant wanted to include his girl friend in the book but couldn't he at least had Scott file for divorce? legal seperation? I dunno...sure, people make mistakes, grow apart etc....but I would NOT like to see Scott go running back to Jean next time she's alive...he is becoming either the most callous, shallow flaky jerk in the universe, or he is really really needing some SERIOUS psychological help. As it is, he isn't acting much like the leader of a team of super heroes.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Sat May 01, 2004 12:43 pm

:mags:
No, he isn't. As long as he is still married to Jean, it is still adultery. the committment had been made. this is one reason why you generally do NOT marry off your superdoops. It brings grown up legal issues and hassles into fantasy lala land. Even kids can understand that. they can understand disloyalty when they see it. some of them are going through that all the time in real life. they don't want it in their fantasy life. they want heroes they can depend on.
scott isn't acting much like the hero we know he is...or should be. when you gut a character's core concepts like RBM did, you had better either trash the character or give him a damn good reason or out for his actions. Two Outs come tomind. unreality...it didn't happen at all...which we are told it did... since everything in RBM's run is not being retconned out of existance...or two, he was in duress vile because of Emma's power. since we cannot have the first, apparently...and I still thinkthat is a mistake compounding a mistake...they gotta give us the second just to salvage the situation and return a modicum of honor to this character.
Of course, that would make Emma something of an untrustworthy villainess again...especially if she did this on purpose. Personally I can believe it of her. She is still, to me, the White queen. she is not a therapist. She is not a teacher. she is not a hero. She is not even a responsible person... and the cuckoos know it if Marvel does not. They got shut of her. so should the Xavier Institute.
And what of Xavier? In this time of travail, where is he? The parents of the children have every right to sue him! For abandonment. He may not be headmaster if he did resign..but if that happened, it happened off panel as so much of RBM's stupid storytelling. We are left to wonder did he resign or did he not? if Not, where the hell is he? If so, where the hell is he? The mansion is trashed and he takes off?
Dead cod time again,folks. He may not be headmaster, but he still owns the buidings, the lands, He is still responsible for the safety and well being of the students entrusted to his care and he should be there to oversee the rebuilding and housing of the students until the institute is up and running again in new quarters.
He's not there...he is in Genosha. OK. Irresponsible of him at the very least. Personally, I don't expect any better of Xavier...but then, I never trusted him in the first place. He creeps me out.
but there are people out there who did trust hem...did see him as the ultimate father figure, and they should be screaming about this gutting of Xavier's character. He is supposed to be the great father figure making every thing right...so where is he? He leaves a fractured group/team of former students to handle the mess and takes off to the other side of the world to bury and eulogize the person who ostensibly did this. Selfish, if you ask me. Maybe he put directives in place...maybe he arranged for the housing, schoolrooms and such before he skipped...but I doubt it. this is a glitch that has to be covered if his characterization is to be salvaged. Even so.. the children would look to him to be there for them...not be an absentee parent. He was in loco parentis of all of those kids! Legally!
The more you get into what Morrison did...and what a misguided Marvel is continuing to propagate by not retconning that run ...or the majority of it ...out of existance...the more the whole thing stinks.
If Marvel truely wants the status quo back. Morrison's crapola has to go. Completely! I am sorry...it just is not fixable!
It ain't happening ...for whatever demented reason... and Marvel will one day rue that decision. Guaranted.
Dammit...I feel like Cassandra jumping up and down andyelling her head off and no one listening. I did that twenty years ago at Marvel. I prophesied the bankruptcy.. no one listened. I am not a prophetess. I am looking down the road to where allthis story crapola will take Marvel. they are hoping people will forget it...but they won't. it will e a point of contention as long as there are continuity archiveists and fans who can quote you page,panel and word balloon. And there's a lot of them...all arguing about the effets of Morrison's run...pro and con. but it will get stale pretty quickly and all anybody will e left with is the sour taste of ruined heroes... Camelot truely shattered. what a pity.
Paty
:mags;

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Sat May 01, 2004 7:12 pm

1. Maybe it's legally wrong for Scott to be with Emma NOW (not before Jean died, but NOW) but he knows Jean is dead. Emma knows Jean is dead. Everyone else knows Jean is dead. So I'd make the case that it is not morally wrong. Currently.

2. The blame for adultery lies with whoever did the cheating. Whoever was in a committed relationship, and cheated. In this case, Scott. Scott is the one who should have said, no no, we can't do this.

Originally posted by Panz
Well, sadly, the man is usually the one that takes the blame, even when it is patently not thier fault.

If he had a wife, and he slept with someone else, it's his fault. Period.

3. Emma did not use mind-control on him. She exploited a weakness in the relationship (the weakness being, Scott was miserable) which isn't a great thing, but saying she used mind-control... when Jean is way more powerful in that area... and when Jean didn't just remove the irresistable attraction to Emma and promise to pay more attention to him in the future when she found them out... Scott was with Emma because he wanted to be. Not because she made him want to be, but because he actually wanted to be.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Sun May 02, 2004 4:13 pm

:mags;
Yes, the adultery is scott's. Maybe he committed it of his own free will andmaybe he didn't...we still don't know, do we? If Emma says she didn't use her powers; you gonna believe her? I'm not. Neither are the cuckoos! they have seen where she leads and found it wanting.Emma is morally bankrupt.
If you are living in a familial relationship...as all the X folk in the mansion are, then you know not to interfere in a marriage. The husband comes to you for emotional counselling, you counsel...that's it! Or, better yet, you set up an appointment with an outside counsel, because you are too close to the situation not to be involved yourself. That's the professional thing to do.
emma knew better. This is professional malfeasance...professional malpractice! she knew what she should have done...and she elected to seduce scott instead of helping him. Why? does she hate Jean? yeah, maybe. Is she merely a self centered little bitch wanting what she wants no matterwho it hurts? Most certainly.
scott was vunerable. By his own admission, he could not talk to Jean. who, except maybe Xavier, could? she is, with the Phoeniz power, virtually immortal. Logan could...he knows what Jean is gonna face...the death of all her friends, sooner or later, the death of her husband...changes upon constant changes around her while she stays the same...immortality can be a curse instead of a blessing. Logan knows better than anyone there what she will face as an immortal.
but scott??? the glorified boy scout? He didn't have a clue! A babe in arms when he married her...because he either didnn't realize hhow really powerful she was or chose not to realize it. then, when all shields are down, in the intimacy of the wedding bed, he has a problem when he realizes she is so powerful and all of a sudden, the girl he fell in love with back when she was a semi telekinetic wimmmp who always needed rescuing is this all powerful force that can create or destroy worlds! A goddess...and he is supposed to tell her his doubts. Right! Suuuuure he could! she's suddenly so tight with the Prof that they are always together and Scott is sorta displaced as favorite son/child. He's gonna tell her that??? she's too powerful for him to talk to in that kind of way. It would be a matter of pride with him.
Well, pride goeth before a fall...and boy, has he fallen from his heroic mold. And that's too bad. the group needs a straight man and scott was it. Now they got nothing...literally.
Yeah... Scott is the literal adulterer. He was the one who was married. and Marvel should not have allowed one of it's heroes to do this...I don't care what kind of God Morrison thinks he is...or what kind of looney toon contract they signed whith him. This is character destruction...not only defamation, but destruction of a horrendous degree. It threatens not only the fabric of the X Men...but it threatens the fabric of Marvel...especially if it is allowed to continue.
Jean is dead...yeah, so what? she's the Phoenix...she'll come back. so she's not really dead, is she? she's on a cosmic time out...an ethereal sabbatical. Unless the Phoenix comes back as ..say, Quentin Quire, for example...bad example but... and thus the Phoenix force has chosen another host, meaning Jean is dead and gone forever...which ain't gonna happen and you know it... scott is still married ... no matter how long Jean takes as sabbatical. Sheeeeee's still out there, kiddies...
Sheeeeee'll be backkkkkk... just wait.
So unless Scott files for separation or divorce, he is still morally culpabable. And Emma is still a conniving bitch...any way you want to look at it. She doesn't belong in the X Men...she belongs back with the other conniving bitches and astards of the Hellfire Club.
she may have psychological problems of her own that need addressing...if so, Xavier is at foult for bringing her into the fold and not working out the glitches before subjecting his students to her wiles and machinations.
she is, across the board, a bad actor...and she has killed students with her ineptitude and egocentric tunnel vision. I cut her no slack. I did at first. After all, other writers have successfully modified and rehabilitated characters from total villany to sympathetic particiipants. Chris with Mags...although later writers tried to change this, it didn't work..not even morrison could shake the foundation chris laid... and chuck Austen with Juggernaut...which was very interesting and well done. Both those characters had bad backstories and became much more sympathetic as we found out what they were about.
But emma, while seemingly sympathetic at first, has shown her true colors...and she is a totally worthless bitch in my estimation. she took advantage of a FRIEND...of a lot of FRIENDS!!! For nothing but her own self-gratification!!! Not even a cause!!! You just don't DO that and retain the appellation "friend" or "heroine" or even good guy...or gal" as the cse may be. she stepped over the line with Scott. she stepped over the line with Jean.
She stepped over the line with the cuckoos.
three strikes and you are out, babe.
And she should be. Only destruction and internal chaos can come to the X men while she is there. If not because of Scott and what they both did to the Scott/Jean relationship...then because she is a destructive and disruptive element with the students...if only because of her own needs and desires and wants that seemingly take precedence in all she does.
this is not how a team member works...destroying from within...and she needs to be excised from the body of the X team...or,like a cancer, she will destroy the whole body.
Teams as well as marriages need TRUST. and she has proved beyond doubt that she is the most untrustowrthy of all...helping to tear down what she should have been building up. she can spout all the wonderful retoric that idiot writers want to put into her smarmy mouth...but what she has done speaks so loudly, I cannot hear what she says...and what she has done has been to plant seeds of dissention, and suspicion and mistrust.
Hellfire Club for sure.
If a writer wanted to make a heroine out of emma, he couldn't have gone about it in a worse way.. Because of her actions in the Scott matter, she has firmly planted her feet...her ridiculously highheeled feet... in the enemy's camp. Let her go back there. Heroines do not entice their friends, other heroes, into legal and moral wrongdoing.
Scott was wrong.
Emma was wronger...uh..more wrong?
there is such a thing as personal recognizance...and they both have failing grades, here...scott's was an F+; Emma's was an F-.
Paty
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