Uncanny X-Men General Discussion

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Post by zati1 »

i definitely disagree with that.

how can you compare turning havok into a female with purple hair and renaming him "dame edna" with lorna going through natural character shifts because of her surreal experiences regarding the deaths sixteen million people around her?? at least her mild psychosis is justifiable...at least i'd say witnessing millions of people dying at your feet is pretty traumatic and i'd worry if she DIDN'T get a little weird afterward.

but havok just randomly turning into a woman and with different powers? it seems like you're confusing character progression with whimsical disregard for characterization. so i'm not quite sure that you're drawing a comparable comparison between the two.
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Post by Miles Teg »

Originally posted by zati1
okay but at least he's doing SOMETHING with her. an appearance in a plot even YOU don't like is better than no appearance at all.
This is what you said, the analogy is quite valid. Because you prefer ANYTHING over Limbo.
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Post by Lorna_Dane »

A lot of plotlines were resolved over a decade ago, but are still being revisited and altered today. Jean and the Phoenix, for one. That is what plot is, twists and turns. I can confidently say I am one of Lorna's biggest fans, and I am ok with the whole storyline. If anything I think it elevates the importance of her character and will help keep her out of limbo.
Hey. anyone know the issue of X-Men Unlimited that this fill in artist on UXM worked on? I want to preview his art.
:lorna :northie :havok :bubbles :icey :dazzler

What a fun team!

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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

As far as the issue of this being settled in the 60's, Iceman's research proved that Lorna was not Magneto's daughter legally- I doubt he had the time for a DNA test. That was enough proof in the days where all marraiges were iron clad and everyone slept in seperate beds like on "Leave it to Beaver", but Lorna was the first one to try to find proof that was beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Post by Bamfette »

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Originally posted by zati1
okay but at least he's doing SOMETHING with her. an appearance in a plot even YOU don't like is better than no appearance at all.
This is what you said, the analogy is quite valid. Because you prefer ANYTHING over Limbo.
but you're blowing this up to the point of ridiculousness. you know perfectly well no writer would EVER do that, unless they were clinically insane. of course there should be a limit, but it is pretty much governed by common sense. i don't think it has been crossed here, not even close. nothing about the previous story has been changed, the conclusions drawn from it are just being shown to be mistaken. how often does that happen in real life? where you find out months, years after something happened that somehting that happened wasn't quite as it appeared at the time?

and Lorns's history may very well have been dealt with 30 years ago or whatever. but that was THIRTY YEARS AGO. how many people have read that and care about that? seriously? the diehard fans, sure. but they are not the only people reading thie book! I never have read that story, and i don't have a desire to go do so right now. you're requiring everyone who reads the title to have a complete database of everything that's happened to the characters since they were introduced. I certainly am not about to waste my time researching character stories that happened before i was born. now if those stories were GOOD, (and this one may very well have been, i dunno.) i may read it for entertainment value. but i don't want to have to do RESEARCH for my ENTERTAINMENT. it feels like homework.

I think there is nothing wrong with revisiting an old story. jsut because it was 'resolved' way back when doesn't mean it should be forbidden to write about it again. othereise, as mentioned, you'd have to start complaining about Phoenix, and many other stories. what about all the new fans who don't have a clue about Lorna's (or Nightcrawler's, for that matter) parents? should they just be ignored? i mean sure they could just keep referring to her adoptive parents and just let people know she's adopted, but... there is nothing wrong with retelling the tale with a new twist, either. hey, this is not outside the realm of plausability. Magneto had to have sex *once* with Polaris' mother. i mean, come on... that doesn't exactly take very long.... he's the man here, he didn't have to have anything to do with her during the pregnancy.
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Post by Miles Teg »

What a fallacy.

Your argument hangs on two things, the first being an assumption, your own interpretation of the past in order to make it fit even if it does contradict those past events.
By saying "well that was thirty years ago, and it might have been a lie".

Your second argument opens up a very nasty can of worms, where you would agree to have any character's history completely reivented because "It happened so long ago, nobody cares about what happened so long ago".

You can't retell someone's history with a twist, history is fact, it can't be re-written. When you turn thirty, your parents will still be your parents, it's not like all of a sudden your father is different.

Besides, why should every story be retold? What does it add to change the past in order for Magneto to be Polaris' daughter. Shoerhorning her into a plot by altering her past is not a very creative way of dealing with a character.

It was stated not only in regular contuinity, but also in the Age of Apocalypse, that Lorna is not related to Magneto.

What you propose is that basically every character can be reinvented with every new writer, and thus every character can be changed completely. What exactly would the point be of reading a serial, if nothing really follows up?
What would the point be of writing a serial, if you're just going to say: "toss it, I'm creating this character a-new". What exactly would the point be of following up on older stories, or even the previous story-arc or the previous writer's work, if you advocate that characters can be re-invented with the srop of a dime. Should we read Kurt's Origin 7.9 in four writers from now, where Kurt is revealed to be the son of a time-travelling Jean Grey and Professor Xavier?
Why not make Lorna's mother Zaladane, I mean nobody really remembers Zaladane, so who cares what we do with her, let's make Zaladane her mother!
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Post by Northstars Love »

I've always been a firm believer in continuity when it comes to books and movies. There is nothing more frustrating than a writer that doesn't follow this rule. Don't get me wrong I respect all writers and artists, but I do not believe in re-inventing characters to sell books or ignoring a character's past. It is one thing to reveal more of a character's origin as it is being done with Nightcrawler in the Draco arc, but to throw away the old character's , say 30 year old origin?, and start fresh, is wrong IMO.


Readers as old as I and older remember when the New X-Men first appeared in UC #94 and some remember reading Lorna's first appearance in Uncanny #49 and full Polaris in #50(I was only 3 then:P) I had all the UC issues at one time #1-285(after that I stopped reading comics. But now I'm back.;)) Those were good books. And what followed was the introduction of Havok(Scott's brother) and the awesome Sentinel 3-part story in which Scott convinced the Sentinels to commit mass suicide by flying themselves into the sun. I cannot discount those stories. They need to be recognized as valid points in the X-Men's history.

Magneto claimed to be Lorna's father then. Then we come to realize that in a later issue that the Magneto that claimed Lorna was his daughter was a robot and that the real Magneto never knew the woman. Now we are faced with that Lorna is
Magneto's daughter again. I have no problem with that. I see it as Magneto's past denial not wanting to hurt Wanda and Pietro. Magneto fooled around. So what! But you have to remember the time when the story of Lorna was first written. In the late sixties that was still considered taboo specially when it comes to young children reading these books.

Therefore, it is conceivable that Magneto lied in the first place.
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Post by zati1 »

Originally posted by Miles Teg
What a fallacy.

You can't retell someone's history with a twist, history is fact, it can't be re-written. When you turn thirty, your parents will still be your parents, it's not like all of a sudden your father is different.
err, okay a) it's a COMIC BOOK... and b) she could very well have a different father! perhaps one she didn't KNOW about or one she was told wasn't actually her father. (sorry to talk about you like you're just a generic example, bamfette...!)

why is this so implausible to you? do you think it's that uncommon for children to not know who their real parents are? or to be incorrect in the assumptions they make about their parents?

sorry i'm beating a dead horse, it just feels like i'm talking to a brick wall because everything i seem to say is somehow "wrong."
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Post by Miles Teg »

Originally posted by zati1

err, okay a) it's a COMIC BOOK...
So what does that mean, that anything could go? So that Havok could turn into Dame Edna tomorrow, and we should all shrug and go "oh well, you know it's a COMIC BOOK afterall..."?
b) she could very well have a different father! perhaps one she didn't KNOW about or one she was told wasn't actually her father.
Save of course for the fact that it was dealt with in the comics, in two seperate realities.
why is this so implausible to you? do you think it's that uncommon for children to not know who their real parents are? or to be incorrect in the assumptions they make about their parents?
It's not at all implausible, had it not been that the issue was solved over ten years ago, and in the Age of Apocalypse we even got an extra mention of the fact that they're not related.

It's a very obvious development. It's all about abusive fathers, so basically this is Austen creating an extra abusing father-plotline with a different character, thus shoehorning Lorna into a situation, where, wuite frankly, she doesn't belong. (because it has been proven, on-panel no less, over ten years ago AND in the Age of Apocalypse, that the two characters are NOT related by blood)

The argument "well he might have lied back then" isn't really a solid argument, since I could just as easily claim that the results of the test were tampered with.
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Post by Dracadancer »

Actually Morrison was the one who brought up the whole Lorna/Mag’s/father/daughter thing again back in New when she was caught in that residual magnetic field left by Magnetos "supposed" death. She started calling out for "her father Magneto" then and went crazy at that point, though I don’t have that issue of New in front of me so I may be getting my facts slightly confused. Austen was just carrying over from Morrisons little unfinished plotline.

Of course its also quite possible that Mags might just be fooling Lorna about him being her father in order to use her in some way. Details of this whole thing are rather sketchy at the moment, at least wait till it plays out before you pass judgement on it. Not to mention the fact that Lorna’s pretty well insane either way so I wouldn’t take anything she says at face, or mind, value to be true necessarly. She could be lying, Mags could be lying, anything is possible so no need for anyone’s underwear to get in a bunch over it just yet. ;)
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Post by Miles Teg »

there's a difference between a crazy Lorna screaming "daddy!" at the top of her lungs, heavily traumatized, naked and in the completely devastated Genosha, in New X-men.

And actual proof that crazy Lorna is Magneto's daughter in Uncanny X-men.

can YOU point out the difference?
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Post by BAMFCentral »

Hey Miles... I understand your frustration... but I also know that this has been happening for quite sometime... Sometimes editorial will miss something and a continuity dibogil will happen, sometimes they just alter the past... As with the change in magneto's origin... which Paty isn't the happiest about. Or even more recently, Superboy is undergoing a possible continuity change. It was once believed, that Superboy was cloned based on the head of cadmus for his human half, which was cemented as fact for a bit, but now another (won't say incase come don't know) is being highlighted as the doner....


Change is sadly inevitable, the change could come about due to from on high as a way of streaming the Marvel universe, or simply be a plot point that will fully play out later.

Not a Lorne fan, so changing her doesn't really affect me one way or another. Nor did the fact they grew wolverine about 3 feet.... But it does get a little annoying when things change. I know I would be mad if Nightcrawler was altered in some fashion I didn't like. (not alternate realities or anything like that, but the 616 version) Don't see the need in making her Magneto's Daughter, but maybe something will come of it down the pipe, or maybe someone is toying with her and at the end of it she still won't be mag's daughter and it is all a trick...
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Post by mightiest_mortal »

Originally posted by Miles Teg
there's a difference between a crazy Lorna screaming "daddy!" at the top of her lungs, heavily traumatized, naked and in the completely devastated Genosha, in New X-men.

And actual proof that crazy Lorna is Magneto's daughter in Uncanny X-men.

can YOU point out the difference?
its the naked part right??

If Lorna had been saying "Father" or something, i would have thought that she was just referring to him as a fathery figure or something, but she was shouting "Daddy" which is a lot more personally directed and implies heavily that she did believe he was her real father at that point.
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Post by Harlekein »

She was a traumatised/insane woman on Genosha. I saw it as her being delusional and I refuse to accept the fact that Polaris is Mags's daughter.
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Post by sevati »

Ok, this is quite offtopic, but no one I ask seems to know the answer. Which X-title is Jono a.k.a. Chamber in at the moment? If he's even in one, I mean. The last one I knew he was in was Uncanny (hence me posting to this thread) in the Poptopia arc. Beyond that my memory is fuzzy.
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Post by Remy_LeBeau »

jono is currently a part of the weapon x cast.
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Post by Swashbuckler »

So, I am officially tired of the Draco. I found myself over at X-Fan reluctnatly today and stumbled acorss a huge list of 70 "austenisms" which i would link to, but i don't know if that's legal here. Anyway, i love Chuck's work on so many other titles, but his Uncanny is so sub-par.
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

70 Austenisms? For having published less than 30 issues, 70 isms is a bit meaningless. That's more than 2 an issue, hardly representing any kind of pattern, or anything be thing repeated to the level of being an "ism". You could just as easilty come up with 70 Morrisonisms, or Claremontisms.
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Post by Miles Teg »

Originally posted by Nightcrawler ZERO
70 Austenisms? For having published less than 30 issues, 70 isms is a bit meaningless. That's more than 2 an issue, hardly representing any kind of pattern, or anything be thing repeated to the level of being an "ism". You could just as easilty come up with 70 Morrisonisms, or Claremontisms.
Trust me, it's harder than it looks, since you need to find recurring elements to put in such lists.
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Post by Yann Solo »

Don't know if I have to use the spoiler tag here, so I will...
[spoiler]Can someone tell me why is Juggernaut friendly with Xavier... and why wavier is walking?[/spoiler]
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Post by Tatu »

and I'm so officially tired of people assuming your not allowed here if you dont love Chuck and making little comments like that.

I'm sure you could post it, but what would be the point? This is the Uncanny X-men discussion thread, you know..for discussing the comics and what goes on in them, not the chuck austen thread, where we discuss everything that chuck doesn't do correctly in the minds of the.. fans

(Note : Swashbuckler, this message wasnt exactly directed at you, its a general message I had planned for some time, you just helped me finally post it)
Originally posted by Swashbuckler
So, I am officially tired of the Draco. I found myself over at X-Fan reluctnatly today and stumbled acorss a huge list of 70 "austenisms" which i would link to, but i don't know if that's legal here. Anyway, i love Chuck's work on so many other titles, but his Uncanny is so sub-par.
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

Originally posted by Yann Solo
Don't know if I have to use the spoiler tag here, so I will...
[spoiler]Can someone tell me why is Juggernaut friendly with Xavier... and why wavier is walking?[/spoiler]
Xavier has been walking since early in Grant Morriosons run on New X-Men, where Xorn healed him. However, we recently learned that Xorn was Magneto, and he was using the Nano Sentinels to patch Xavier's spine. He is now crippled once again.

As for Juggernaut, after his powers began diminishing and he learned that Black Tom was never his friend, and was simply exploitingv him for his powers, he began re-evaluating his life, and Xavier offered him a chance to stay at the mansion for a while. After deciding that he wanted to be an X-Man, being treated fairly by the Step-brother who he always thought was trying to be beter than him, and learning that Xavier's childhood wasn't all that much better than his (They were both abused by Cain's father) Juggernaut has formed an uneasy friendship with Xavier.
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What's with Xavier's walking/lack therof?

Post by Maelstrom »

How many times has poor Charles been able to walk and then had the ability ripped away? From the old days, just after the Brood saga, he was cloned into a new body and able to walk (after a lot of therapy). I assumed that his walking ability here was uninterrupted, but now I hear that he had to be "fixed" at some point to walk again? And now he's going back to being crippled? That's, what, wheels-walk-wheels-walk-wheels? :eek

Man, it's a good thing that Xavier's got such a strong mind and sense of self. This kind of recurring injury would drive me into the kind of cynicism and depression that would make Dilbert look like The Family Circus. Can anyone explain to me just what's going on here? It looks like a troubled round-robin story where one writer wants him to walk, the other doesn't, and they keep inventing reasons why he can or can't with every episode. Why are the writers torturing this poor guy?
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Post by Bamfette »

that may have been the case in the past... except this time it was just one writer that made him able to walk again and then crippled him again, later.... but i guess Morrison is going for a whole theme of history repeats in this last arc especially, what with Xavier being crippled again and Jean going all Phoenix and on a space craft about to be destroyed, the upcoming DoFP style glimpse into the future, etc etc etc (oh, gee, let me guess what happens.... Jean sacrafices her life to save the life of Wolverine using the phoenix powers, only at first she really doesn't die but reaches a new level of power. but later she really DOES sacrafice her self and dies.... history repeats.) i am not entirely sure just how many times it has happened, but i know ithas been quite a few. i think, what, 3 or 4 times that he's been able to walk only to have it snatched away again?

but this discussion is probably better suited to the New thread.

but as for the whole Astenism's list.... so? Chuck did that *himself* in a YABS a while ago. so did dozens of other writers in the same column. i could do the same for Claremont and Morriosn if i thought about it. i could do Bendisisms or Gaimanisms (now Gaiman, there's a guy who likes to revisit themes over and over, and has a very distinct narrative style that is full of 'isms'. he also happens to be my very favourite writer ever) or Millarisms or... need i go on? it doesn't make them bad writers, even if some of the isms may make them sound cheesy, repetative or like i am poking fun at them. hell, i HAVE seen one of Claremontism's that was over a hundred items long. there was a thread at X-Fan some time ago where people just came up with one Claremontism after another, then someone put it all together into one giant list. just because a writer uses recurring themes and such doesn't make them necessarily bad. maybe bad *to you* but not to everyone. some of the 'isms' i love about Gaimans writing i know for a fact others hate, as i have seen several people say so. but if every writer wrote the same way, without their own ways of doing things, their own little quirks, there would not be any distinction from writer to another.
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Post by Miles Teg »

Don't get so defensive, it's just humor.
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