X-Treme X-Men

[Bamfing_Bob]

So July 25th is the release date on the new series X-Treme X-Men, featuring Captain Howlett, Emmaline Frost, Dazzler, and KID NIGHTCRAWLER! I am very excited for this title. Going to be like the Exiles, which I loved...

Greg Pak is going to be on the project, which is great since he introduced these characters (besides Dazzler) in AXM 44-47. I want to buy these but I need to pay rent

This thread is for discussion of the series. Character Development. Plot points. You know.

[Bamfing_Bob]

Comes out tomorrow! Who's excited??

I found this preview online, And I must say, I love it. Ties up the end of AXM 47, and looks forward to an Exiles-type dimensional teleport for our heroes.

http://comicbookrealm.com/previews/5021 ... en-issue-1

[Bamfing_Bob]

So, I bought the comic first thing yesterday morning. It was great. Is anyone else reading it, or am I all alone here?

[Freak]

Read it, liked it. Wished there was less exposure of Dazzler (whom we already kind of know, her being the main universe version) and more of the other three.

[Starfish]

I gave it a shot, too, honestly not expecting much from such an odd premise. I was pleasantly surprised, however. That was a really good read, and it has me hooked for now.

[Bamfing_Bob]

I know... It seems really weird, but the basic goal of the series makes sense and the characters are just different enough to keep me hooked for character development and team building. Dazzler is thrown into a group that already has some experience as a team, so adhering to their dynamic will be interesting... Excited for issue two.

[Ult_Sm86]

I loved it. I typing giving us Dazzler as the character from whomever the audience sees the story through made sense. She's just out there enough to be fun for old readers, different for new readers, and is as new to this storyline as any readers just jumping on are. She wasn't there when Scott got stuck in that dimensional whatever and now she's in there with them instead. I like the use of other marvel characters at the end too.

[Bamfing_Bob]

Best part is that we get to see alot of Alternate Universe X-Men throughout the series, so the writers (and artists) can explore and go crazy. All those "what If"s can come to fruition, even if only for a short arc...

[Sundown]

Read the first one, won't buy a second.

Dazzler is a huge miss for me. She's the disco version of Pixie, so any title with that much focus on her is going to grate on my nerves. Emmeline acted like Emma, Howlett acted like Wolverine (with better sideburns). Worst of all, Kid Kurt was portrayed exactly like I anticipated: as a young, Evo-looking, trite side-kick telling everyone to get along.

I remember that old issue of Excalibur where Nightcrawler was shown as horrified by the notion that the rest of the team viewed him as a mascot, and therefore not as important. Now he gets to be a mascot in an ugly sweater who likes accordion music.

[Bamfing_Bob]

I've never been a big fan of Dazzler... but I will stick with it...

[Ult_Sm86]

You know, my girlfriend said the same thing. That Dazzler killed it for her.

Is she really that big of a deterrent from the title? Her involvement, that is? I'll be honest, I'm impressed they're trying to do more with her now. And coming up soon in "Avenging Spider-Man", there's a team-up with Deadpool & Hypno-Hustler. The call back type characters are always really fun for me.

[Bamfing_Bob]

That is how you keep the Marvel Universe interesting... Once a character is introduced, they don't just disappear! Dazzler isn't a bad character. Just under-utilized because of her career as a pop star. I will say to Sundown that Kid Nightcrawler may be a supporting role that does NOT get the credit or panel time he deserves, but he won't be a mascot. He is a member of the team. Like Banshee. Good character, good power, but next to all the new characters of Colossus and Storm and Wolverine and Nightcrawler, he didn't see the spotlight often. I do hope Kurt is an important team player in this series...

[Sundown]

My main problem with using a child version of Nightcrawler (or any of the other X-Men, for that matter), is that it limits character development in the extreme (or should I say X-Treme?). Any swashbuckling will fall into the realm of "cute". Gone is the roguish flirt. Gone is the potential of leading a team, like in Excalibur. He'll be "that sweet kid" that never gets any older. I mean, it took Kitty, what, 30 years to get beyond being a teenager? Jubilee never made it out -- 20+ years on and she's still a bubble-gum popping teen only now with vampiric tendencies (blood flavoured gum?).

Evo has been just popular enough that an Evo version of Nightcrawler might stick, and then we'll be stuck with that for the long haul. They're already giving him basically the same personality as Kurt Wagner.

Marvel appears to be doing the same thing in the main Marvel U by bringing in teen versions of the original 5 X-Men.

[Ult_Sm86]

I'm fine with all of this.

[Ult_Sm86]

NU!

I don't like it!

... That's a lie, it's kinda cool.

[Bamfing_Bob]

I think it is pretty damn awesome... The physical attributes are spot on and his "costume" is very simple but realistic. Something a 14 year old would wear. Also, high school students normally don't use lunch boxes, but Kurt pulls it off

So apparently this is the cover for XXM #6, after this upcoming 2 parter in the wild west. They are going to visit the United States of California, Kurt Waggoner's home. We may get to have him in the spotlight for once! Character development for sure...

Also, after this first three issues, I'm already tired of Dazzler. She's powerful and all, but she has no tact and she sings too much. I get it... you are a pop star...
I think I hate it because it's just words on a page. Maybe if I could hear it or have some idea of how it sounds, I would feel differently.

Also, loved the ending to three. nice twist. And I was so tired of Emmeline, glad she stayed in the bronze age. Also glad Blaire stole a smooch from Emmeline's squeeze. Show her what's up. My question is... who is going to round out the team? Will we get another character on the roster or will it hold as is?

Funny comparison I just made. They're like the Deadpool Corps, minus the dog. You have a man, a woman, a kid, and a head. LOL

[Elwing]

May I chime in a bit late and state that the number one book of this series is the most disappointing thing I have read in a long time, and made me despair for the future of Marvel comics? It's not even like it is awful, but it is just completely pedestrian. This seems to be a sort of Exiles type book, but without any of the Exiles characters. Instead we get a few alternative takes on existing marvel characters, all poorly explained and fleshed out. And Dazzler. Dazzler?
There is no originality, the whole thing feels rushed and forced and the art is questionable. If they want me to buy a book they will have to do better on the introduction.

[Bamfing_Bob]

I agree that it feels really rushed, probably because it was initially spelled out that it is a limited series. "Kill ten evil Xaviers". Once that happens, no more. They could stretch it out to three issue parts, like Exiles did, but they won't. I think all the character development will happen over the next few issues...

I never said this was a great book. It isn't. But it is fun to see the X-Men in different realities and alternate takes on existing characters. Not the best, but I pick it up when it comes out...

[Ult_Sm86]

Honestly, so long as there's a version of Nightcrawler worth reading, I read it. I was alright on issue 1, it was really fun the first time I read it and then when I went back it was less dramatic, more rushed.

However, I will skip this nonsense and start up with an arc about Kid-Crawler, no problem.

[Ult_Sm86]

WELL BOY DID THAT SERIES FINALLY PICK UP!!

X-Treme X-Men #6 was great!

I might make this my new title!

James Howlett is Gay! His gay lover is HERCULES! The alternate reality they're in in this issue has Danger as the robo-overlord and Sage as emissary for living beings! And this is the universe poor Kid-Crawler calls home!

[Bamfing_Bob]

Yeah, I just did not see that one coming! There isn't a ton of Kurt in this one (or at least not as much as I was expecting), but the story is great. It finally dives into what makes our characters tick. Kurt's world was practically a utopian society, until all robots acheived independence and rebelled. It really sucks that he has no home to go back to...

Could this be the beginning of a new Kurt in 616? Practically reborn into a society he can call home, brought up in Jean Grey's school, and being a member of newer, younger teams? Let's look at the pros and cons of doing this. Cons are that true Nightcrawler fans like us are not satisfied with replacing him, much like with AoA in UXF. But the storylines are generally good, and we get to see "Nightcrawler" in action without actually having him here. Pros include expanding the Nightcrawler fanbase to younger books, a cool interaction between Kurt and the bamfs in WatXM, and an inside look at the adolescent development of the fuzzball. Honestly, while I do miss him and want him back, if treated properly (a long shot), this may be the most plausible way to get him back in a sense... He has a knowledge of technology, which is always good. He seems light hearted and fun, which has been lacking for years. I actually look forward to seeing him in 616, if that happens. I mean, where else would he go? Also, it would help ease him back in to the X-Men. Kitty was 15 when she joined, with no knowledge of how to be a hero. Kurt Waggoner is 14 and is already a time-hopping team player. Once he hones his skills, he may be a valuable member to any team. The acrobatics are my biggest concern, since he wasn't raised in the circus, but rather a suburb. Anyway, what do you think? Possible? Probable?

[Sundown]

Could this be the beginning of a new Kurt in 616? Practically reborn into a society he can call home, brought up in Jean Grey's school, and being a member of newer, younger teams? Let's look at the pros and cons of doing this.

Oh god not no but HELL NO. Reducing a character like Nightcrawler to the irrelevancy of a side-kick child (or yet another Broo type character, never to be anything else) is bad enough in a non-616 title. If they throw him in the main universe, I'm done for good.
The only thing Pak's version of the character has in common with the original is that he's blue and teleports. It's a random nerdy, bullied child thrown into something that looks like Nightcrawler's body. For people who find a cute, trite little mascot an okay replacement, more power to you, but I fervently hope he stays completely away from the main U.

[Bamfing_Bob]

So, I had a ton written down, then I tried to quote you and lost everything. Ugh...

Kurt Waggoner doesn't have alot of options. The fact that he has no where to go and a friend with connections to a boarding school for mutants is very promising. A great fit for him. Also, I don't see it as a replacement, but rather a new era. The Nightcrawler door is closed, so why not open another and see what walks in? No one can replace him. I just think it would be cool to explore the development of a completely different person who just happens to share Nightcrawler's physique and abilities. Nightcrawler may come back one day. But not now, especially with all the drama and new stuff thanks to AvX. So why not let Kid Kurt occupy 616 until the time is right? (But then that raises the question of how to dispose of kid who would gain fans and history, etc... or even to let them coexist)

For people who find a cute, trite little mascot an okay replacement, more power to you, but I fervently hope he stays completely away from the main U.

That's what I was saying about younger teams though. In a New Mutants or Young X-Men or something similar, he wouldn't be a mascot. He would be a power player. Everyone starts somewhere. Iceman was (I think) 15 or 16, Kitty was 15. It is the right age to join a group, historically.

[Sundown]

So, I had a ton written down, then I tried to quote you and lost everything. Ugh...

Kurt Waggoner doesn't have alot of options.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with him returning to a dead world and being raised by robots, being stuck traversing with Dazzler across universes forever, showing up in TJ's world and getting adopted or simply returning to Pak's imagination...just so long as we don't get stuck with him in 616.

The fact that he has no where to go and a friend with connections to a boarding school for mutants is very promising. A great fit for him.

And perfect for illustrating how he is Logan's little pet. Logan could even get away with patting this one on the head physically, rather than just verbally.

Also, I don't see it as a replacement, but rather a new era. The Nightcrawler door is closed, so why not open another and see what walks in?

Sure thing, as long as it remains true to the character concept. I DO NOT WANT EVO Kurt. Period. End of story. Darkholme at least had significant things in common with the original. He was an adult character. He has the same parents, speech patterns, ethnicity, movement and fighting style, and even had personality traits in common when you start talking about determination, force of will and bull-headed focus. It was an exploration of the character from a very dark place. The kid is a completely different character that Pak put in there and cashed in on Nightcrawler's physical design and power set. If he wanted to create a new character, then do so, don't steal ideas from an old one and corrupt it.

No one can replace him. I just think it would be cool to explore the development of a completely different person who just happens to share Nightcrawler's physique and abilities.

I'd be fine with the kid being an offspring of Nightcrawler, like TJ was...a Kurt Jr. Otherwise, see above.

(But then that raises the question of how to dispose of kid who would gain fans and history, etc... or even to let them coexist)

No, it is unlikely they could co-exist, as the kid would fulfil a similar team role and emotional tone. A compassionate side-kick. What would happen in the comics is the same thing that happened after the film. New readers would believe Nightcrawler was some kid and the same people who love characters like Broo and JarJar Binks from Star Wars would want that to be the definitive Kurt. The old concept and character would be lost for good, and we'd be stuck with a perpetual teenager who has nothing in common with the real character, barring looks. Just like the over-religious thing boomeranged back into the books after Alan Cumming's rendition in X2, Wagonner in 616 would destroy any hope for the real Kurt to, or anything similar to return.

That's what I was saying about younger teams though. In a New Mutants or Young X-Men or something similar, he wouldn't be a mascot. He would be a power player. Everyone starts somewhere. Iceman was (I think) 15 or 16, Kitty was 15. It is the right age to join a group, historically.

Teen/kid books sell notoriously bad. Kitty became popular because she was on the adult team, same with Jubilee, same eventually with Magik.

[Bamfing_Bob]

Picked up #7 today. Kurt is still driven by his need to be reunited with his parents. SPOILER ALERT






SPOILER ALERT








SPOILER ALERT








The robots trick Waggoner into believe his parents are being held captive, when really they vivosected them (dissected alive) to gain insight on their knowledge of the robot race. This tips him over the edge and he blows up the city. Pretty intense. You see him truely break down over discovering the fate of his parents after being led on. It is definitely a good read...