Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

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Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:30 am

So here is a quick history of the X-Men up 'til now. Very brief and skims a lot of major points. Doesn't address Wagner's death outright, unfortunately, but it does discuss the loss of lives during Second Coming and Nation X.

Anyways -- AvX... So we know what's happened to bring the X-Men here... what do we think is going to happen?

Where is Logan going to go? Avengers or X-Men? What about Beast?

WHO is the Phoenix Force even coming for??
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Starfish » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:59 am

The four issue mini-series X-Sanction served as a set up for the AvX event, where a desperate (and not so mentally sound) Cable returned from the future and attacked the Avengers for something he believes they're going to do to Hope. Aside from the heavy foreshadowing in that past that linked Hope to the Phoenix Force, it has recently been revealed that she's actually one of its missing fragments.

AvX #0 was also out this week, and while it didn't do anything to start off the actual conflict between the two teams, it contained two separate stories about Hope and Wanda, who will play a big role during the event. I wouldn't call it required reading, but the team up between Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman, and Scarlet Witch was pretty nice, and Frank Cho's artwork is really lovely to look at.

AvX #1 will come out next week, even though Marvel shipped the issue a week early, and there are reports that some stores already put it on the shelves. From the looks of it, Beast and Wolverine will start out on the Avengers' side, but might eventually end up in the middle between the two teams. Logan in particular seems to focus mostly on his current mission statement of "keep the kids out of the fighting".
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Starfish » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:45 am

Double posting for great justice! So, the event has been started off, with AvX #0-2 and a couple of tie-ins already out, namely New Avengers #24, Avengers #25, and WatXM #9. While the tie-ins certainly are enjoyable reads in their own light, I wouldn't consider them required reading for the event just yet; even though they do provide additional insight in the motivation of the characters.

Compared to the painfully slow build-up of Schism, AvX kicks into high gear right from the start, not wasting any time to get to the action. It's very fast paced, with some twists and turns already thrown in, promising more down the line. So my initial fear that this twelve issue event would end up being mostly drag and filler hasn't been confirmed - for now, anyway.
As with any hero-vs-hero brawl, don't expect every character to act reasonable, though - there would be no fight if everyone behaved like responsible adults, after all. It's just something that needs to be accepted to make the inherent silliness of the premise work, so my suggestion would be to not take any of it too seriously. Still, I think Marvel could have done a better job to give each side a credible job.

In relation to the event, coming Wednesday we'll see the release of New Avengers #25, Secret Avengers #26, Uncanny X-Men #11, and the first issue of the VS tie-ins, with the latter appearing to deliver mostly fight scenes and little plot.

So, anyone following this so far? What do you think?
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:33 pm

Did anyone read "VS"?

It was... interesting. I think the Magneto/Iron Man fight made a lot more sense than the Namor/Thing one. I feel like the winner of that was done so to appeal to editor/VP, Tom Brevoort who is a hardcore fan of the alleged winner. However... the "winner" in that issue is probably not the same in the continuing brawl shown in the pages "Uncanny X-Men".

I didn't want to spoil so please exchange words such as "The Winner" in that statement above with the winner from the fight, should you know who "The Winner" is.

Also, I like that W&tXM is not afraid to get involved in the AvX plot (obviously, being it's Logan's school) but Aaron is also not afraid of making it the sole focus.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat May 05, 2012 10:19 pm

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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat May 12, 2012 2:36 am

So the main event is pretty cool, but I gotta say all these tie-in side issues of W&tXM/XMLegacy/Uncanny X-Men... it's awesome.

Please, someone tell me I'm not the only one reading this!? :love :love
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby kladyelf » Sat May 12, 2012 5:17 am

(after reviewing what i've written I notice that this kind of ended up kind of long and slightly rant-y, so apologies in advance for anyone who wants to read this...)

OK as I have no access to this particular story arc, all I know is from previews and snippets online, :computer and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I've gleaned so far:

Apparently during it's pan-dimensional, galaxy-spanning tour of the universe the giant fiery cosmic Tweety-bird known as the Phoenix Force is heading for Earth, snacking on (and regenerating) planets as it goes, causing a massive death-toll and copious gambling on who is next in intergalactic casinos (and don't even get me started on the calorie content of planets - oye!).

The Phoenix is headed for Earth as it has heard of a new redhead, (collect the whole set!) namely Deus Ex Machina Girl and wants to see what the latest model is like as she's already tried Classic Redhead and Future-Angsty-Tattooed Redhead.

Now for the difficult part *puts on Rhinestone-encrusted labcoat and t-shirt with the word Science!*

Unfortunately now that it is headed for Earth, the inhabitants are suffering from side-effects of the impending approach, as the Phoenix has had so much to do with psi-brain powers it seems to be feeding on the intelligence of the natives of inhabited worlds from quite a long distance away, resulting in the stupidification of the population of the planets it encounters. (Ie: giant hungry space budgie headed your way - what do you do? Run perhaps, or go get help or try to find its weakness to divert or destroy it or even try to dig up a space mcguffin to move the planet to another system away from the giant cosmic hungry birdie? Nope, you fight the thing! and get obliterated in the process - I call it the Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Syndrome).

In the case of the heroes of Earth the stupidification effect makes all the heroes act foolishly and fight each other, trying to grab/kill/lie about Deus Ex Machina girl who decides she's had enough and runs away. And all the heroic types take a time-out from fighting villains and decide to go to different and interesting locations to fight each other in really mismatched and sometimes silly ways (ie: Magneto Vs Iron Man and Colossus-naut Vs Spider-man).

Meanwhile Wanda Maximoff is watching the whole thing on TV and eating popcorn *crickets chirping.* Believe it or not, this becomes significant later.

I did like the whole thing where Wolverine tries to keep the kids out of the fighting (thanks Starfish! i'd forgotten that bit) but we all know that the school will be involved sooner or later, so lets move on to the symptoms and effects of Whiskey Tango Foxtrot syndrome.

The first to my mind is the total character change of the phoenix itself, this started out as a part of the primal force of creation, a creature of great passion and cosmic level awareness. When it first bonded with/replaced Jean Grey, it was intentionally a force for good, regenerating the multiverse by restoring the M'Krann crystal. During the Dark Phoenix saga, after subsequent manipulation from the Hellfire Club and Jason Wyngarde, Jean/Phoenix was driven insane, her human dark side was released and, after attacking the people that Jean loved the most, the Phoenix zipped off planet and "ate" the sun of an inhabited world, causing it to go nova, feeding off the energies released for the "thrill" of it, while the world of the Dbarii** was subsequently destroyed. The resulting supernova then became a black hole (Is that how they are made? I forget) and as far as I know it is still there in space today.


Sucking.

*coughcough*


This is kind of important though, please note this little factoid: a *sun* was destroyed, not a *world* and not only was there no regeneration but rather the opposite effect: where there was a sun there is now a black hole. Furthermore this only happened after Phoenix became Dark Phoenix, the person the entity had imprinted upon, going crazy and seeking out more and more intense sensations irrespective of the consequences of action. Additionally when "Jean" regained her faculties and realised what she had done, she knew that the only way for the universe to be safe was to take herself out of the equation, to destroy herself in order to preserve life in the universe.

Somehow over the years that has now metamorphosed into "giant hungry redhead-seeking feathered Galactus equivalent" roaring through space eating worlds.

Diagnosis: WTF?!?


The second symptom is the stupidity of the heroes themselves, now I don't really know the Avengers as well as the X-men (I mean enough to know they are not acting in character, but not enough to be specific) So I'll be focusing on the X-types instead; specifically one or two characters in particular: Cyclops.
For reasons inexplicable to me (I mean there are bits explained via previews and stuff but I still don't get it) Cyke actually wants Galactus-budgie to come and visit his home planet because it worked so well in the past, which in all fairness, aside from .... stealing his girlfriend, attacking his team and killing an alien star-system, and spaceship thus ticking off an intergalactic empire - causing them to later kill off his ex-in-law's entire family out of fear it might resurface and introducing *years* of extra angst into his life ... has worked out really well so far.

Cyclops wants the Phoenix back on Earth with the X-men because he sincerely believes that Deus Ex Machina girl's symbiotic mutant-kickstarting powers would have that extra-added awesome factor if they were cosmically empowered and would somehow regenerate the mutants as a species. Thus making her into Deus-Ex-Machina-Mcguffin girl - how? Science!!.

OK even if we completely ignore the fact that planet Earth seems to be a clearing-house for random lost mystic civilisations with the wisdom and secrets of the ages stuffed into their collective mattresses and reality-altering doodads abound (cosmic cube anyone? OK how about the reality gem? y'know the one which is part of the freakin' Infinity Gauntlet?) any of which could restore the mutant species (and resurrect deceased characters but that's an entirely different reanimated equine) .... Provided we are completely ignoring that, we have to face up to the fact that even if McGuffin-girl manages to host the Phoenix without snacking on siginificant parts of Terra Firma, then that makes Cyclops, the X-men and the girl in question complicit in and even giving tacit approval to the genocide of several alien worlds (OK Earth will be fine but still...) and their respective peoples, an idea which is morally and ethically repugnant, and definitely goes beyond the whole "flawed heroes with feet of clay" thing.
(Also: what will the heroes even do with a cosmic thingy in their midst? how will the writers write their way around that? will they have to subsequently de-power Hope or what?)

Diagnosis WTF???

As a side note to the X-Men thing I'd like to briefly take a look at Wolverine, and it goes a little like this:

:logan "To save the kids I will Join the Avengers side and capture the redhead"
:logan "To save the world I'll kill the redhead"
Me: "But we have a previous host who could talk to the phoenix with her brain powers! Maybe we could find another solution?"
:logan *thinks for a moment* "mmmmnope, still gonna be growlmcstabbity"
Captain America: "How completely unexpected! If it's alright with you I shall now throw you out of a plane now m'kay?"


And thirdly:
"No more avengers" ... because apparently ... that's a thing now? :huh

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=38582

Maybe Wanda just had a craving for alphabet soup?

Diagnosis: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot I don't even :doh! .... !


*takes a deep breath*

IMO while it looks like it has some nice moments and even fun bits, it still seems like a rather silly story arc that seriously messes around with characters and continuity in ways that I am not keen on.

And with all the Schisms and Civil Wars and stuff it makes you wander whose side everyone is on? Team Growl-Mc-stabbity? team snark-itty or team sitting-in-the-audience-throwing-popcorn-at-the-players?

(also, would it be strange for Chester A Bum to do a review of this arc? or perhaps Lester B Bum of Linkara-dom? (only for him to shout "Chaaaange!") Am I the only one who would find this hilarious? Also: Linkara - what would he make of this? What do you guys make of it? now that things have progressed a little more? I wanna know!!)



** The scary thing that I don't think anyone has ever really explored or touched on AFAIK (which I reckon they should) is this: Jean Grey-Summers is a telepath and as Phoenix her psionic ability was much stronger; as Dark Phoenix that sensitivity was exponentially increased, limitless to the point where nothing was secret or sacred anymore. An inhabited world dies through her action - a memory that Jean would have inherited after the Phoenix's suicide - and the Phoenix would have noticed/felt it/picked up on it through her telepathy. Jean was traumatised into catatonia when a friend died and her powers picked up on her dying mind, what kind of consequence would it have to feel a whole world die through your mind?
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat May 12, 2012 4:01 pm

I'll be honest, this seems like it'd be a really funny piece to read but I got to about

*coughcough*


and I can't figure out if you are okay with this plot or not?

MO while it looks like it has some nice moments and even fun bits, it still seems like a rather silly story arc that seriously messes around with characters and continuity in ways that I am not keen on.


Nevermind, that solves it.

"To save the kids I will Join the Avengers side and capture the redhead"
"To save the world I'll kill the redhead"
Me: "But we have a previous host who could talk to the phoenix with her brain powers! Maybe we could find another solution?"
*thinks for a moment* "mmmmnope, still gonna be growlmcstabbity"
Captain America: "How completely unexpected! If it's alright with you I shall now throw you out of a plane now m'kay?"


I think this story arc is the best character development Logan has seen since Origins. If you are reading the appropriate tie-ins (Wolverine & The X-Men, X-Men Legacy) you can really see what the whole thing with the school was. And Captain America is the kind of guy who expects the best of people, constantly. And if I remember correctly, it wasn't just 'cause he said "I have to take her out like Jean" it was more "And I'll stop you if you get in my way".

The evolution of this story has been going on for 10 years. If you take a good analysis of Marvel history since 2001/or-there-abouts, you'll see this event has been building up for basically a decade. This is Marvel's symphony of destruction.

I like that it attempts to put the fanboys/girls at ease with the line-ups they've been asking for. The battles they've been constantly talking about since the dawn of time. "Who would win, Hulk or Juggernaut?" "Namor or Thing?" "Iron Man or Magneto?"

It's FUN Klady! LoL, that's what this event is! It's FUN.
The Avengers see an impending doom, Scott sees both a shining light of hope, a reminder of his beloved dead wife, and more important than everything as Logan put it, "It's a WMD in your pocket". And the way Cyclops sees it, the Avengers don't want to give the Mutants a shot at, well, survival. (Which is obviously untrue).


However, remember the Avengers have a record of judging people harshly. Maybe not all of them directly, but remember the Illuminati shipped off Hulk to outerspace because of how dangerous/unpredictable he is? And Xavier was even in on that decision.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Slarti » Sat May 12, 2012 4:54 pm

I'm always a few weeks behind, but so far I've been reading the lead-ins and AvX 1 and the fight issue with Iron Man vs. Magneto. As my pals at the Uncanny X-Cast say, "Marvel excels at big dumb fight books," which is what those peripherals are... and I'm okay with that because they are peripheral. So far, the actual story has my interest.

I think the whole thing should end with Jean returning from her white hot room, taking back the Phoenix Force and siding with Logan to join the school with her name. :shifty
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon May 14, 2012 2:52 am

I think the whole thing should end with Jean returning from her white hot room, taking back the Phoenix Force and siding with Logan to join the school with her name.


<3 it. Hope so as well.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun May 20, 2012 4:49 am

So I read AvX Round 4 and AvX: Versus #2....


Awesome.

The Gambit/CapAm fight was awesome in VS#2.

Also, the "Beer Trap" with Hope & Logan was fucking brilliant.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed May 23, 2012 9:55 am

I'm reading it. When I stop thinking about the bits that bug me, it's enjoyable. Versus has been rather one-sided so far, but it's still early. The WatXM issues have been solid, as usual. I really do like that title.

My biggest problem is with the fight itself, I guess. I have a hard time believing so many of the X-Men would fall in line with Scott's willful ignorance of the devastation the Phoenix could unleash just because it might jump-start the X-gene. What evidence is there for anyone to believe that's what will happen? He seems rather delusional, and a whole bunch of formerly rational people are just going along with it. Acourse, that's nothing new. They all went along with his Magneto-esque plan of moving the remaining mutant population to a raised hunk of Asteroid M and functionally declaring that inarable rock a new nation.

As for the Avengers, do they really think detaining Hope will keep the Phoenix from getting to her (if that's its primary purpose) if all other attempts to stop it from getting to Earth fail? They'd be better off trying to talk it into finding a host elsewhere. Instead, they seem intent on making it mad. Beast, especially, should know better. Wolverine's answer is to kill the assumed host, which is pretty typical for him, but it's not like having a host makes it more or less destructive in the long run. Not having a host isn't exactly stopping it from eating planets, now, is it? If Hope is killed, it could pick another host or just destroy Earth for being annoying like that. If it bonds with Hope, it could still destroy Earth just because it seems like the thing to do.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:02 pm

Whenever I get sick of the main story arc (and I surely do), the side stuff gets me back into it. I realize last week I was complaining about AvX still bleeding into W&tXM, but right now I actually loved this last issue that just came out Wednesday.

For the first time ever I picked up a "Team Blue" book, (New Mutants #44), mostly because Iron Fist/Strange/& Silver Surfer were in it -- what an unfair fight--, and was slightly startled at how good it was.
Mostly because I like seeing the Avengers step in and sort of point out how ignorant everyone on Scott's side is.

I'm really starting to hate Scott's crew. They're just blindly following him, it's becoming a cult honestly. And the Phoenix Five? I'd rather seem all of them get stripped of all their abilities, completely, at the end of this. Not just the Phoenix Force.

Rachel finally came through in W&tXM and sort of played an important role (feel free to read it and see what I mean), and I'm starting to actually care about Hope now. And Wanda.
I don't understand how Xavier has stayed so... "removed" about this.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Starfish » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:09 pm

Just a minor point: New Mutants does actually not tie in with AvX (X-Factor doesn't, either). That story is completely unrelated, just guest-starring the Defenders.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:13 pm

I did notice that as I continued to read, but I must've been on a "good feelings vibe" from Beast giving Bobby the "young man" talk about where he stands with Scott's cult.

But I'm excited that it's a 3-parter event (New Mutants that is) so I don't have to worry about continuing to collect after if I don't like it that much. It's fanservice. I like the Defenders, dont have the money for the title though :<. Where's Red Shehulk?
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby kladyelf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:24 am

OK so as I understand it there are now 5 Phoenix empowered mutants (none of which are Hope) busily reshaping the world in their image and a certain someone (won't spoiler it) will be coming back.

Funny thing is all i can think of is "Here's a Phoenix, There's a Phoenix, and another little Phoenix, Mutant Phoenix, Cosmic Phoenix, Phoenix-Mutant-duck"
(I could go on, but I don't think I will as I've just weirded myself out a bit here :) )

For reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMYN4djSq7o


Actually on a random note: I wanna see the Phoenix force given to a duck, just an ordinary duck, just to see what happens :D .... but then my brain goes off into Monty-Python-King-Arthur-Land so... anyway :D

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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:06 am

kladyelf wrote:OK so as I understand it there are now 5 Phoenix empowered mutants (none of which are Hope) busily reshaping the world in their image and a certain someone (won't spoiler it) will be coming back.

It's less in their image and more a world-peace-now image. They're rather miffed with the Avengers, though. No peace for them! :X
If you're thinking about whom I think you're thinking, I don't think "coming back" is an accurate description what's happening with that character.

Funny thing is all i can think of is "Here's a Phoenix, There's a Phoenix, and another little Phoenix, Mutant Phoenix, Cosmic Phoenix, Phoenix-Mutant-duck"
(I could go on, but I don't think I will as I've just weirded myself out a bit here :) )

Squee! I like it! :D
And I would also like to see the Phoenix duck. Now, that would be a cosmic bird!
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Starfish » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:15 am

Image
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:20 pm

Starfish: Game. Set. Match.

So Scarlet Witch is kickin ass... Who knew the only being on earth to strike fear into the Pheonix force is Magneto's little girl? Then again, she changed realily with "a sentence fragment", so it makes sense... Loving this series...
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:29 am

So, who is still reading AvX? I am... got #9 today.

SPOILER ALERT


I know Spiderman is a tough cookie, but he is not that tough. Getting punched in the face by a Pheonix-powered Colossus should have killed him. Getting blasted by Magik should have killed him. And definately standing, injured, in the epicenter of a cosmic explosion should have killed him.

I love Spiderman, but if it takes ALL the Avengers to take out Namor (with one fifth of the pheonix force), how can Spiderman stand alone against half the pheonix force (1/4 Peter, 1/4 Magik) and live to tell the tale? Far Fetched, at best.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:26 pm

You clearly are not a Spider-Fan, my friend. ;) :spidey Or have lost faith perhaps.


If there's one thing Peter Parker has learned to do (in just about every multiverse from 1602 to Noir), it's endure. Brutal pain and crippling forces, he puts those things aside for the greater good (not grater guda). In my eyes, they use physical pain as much as they use emotional pain on Peter. He is still standing because... (and this is the whole point of why he's still standing honestly when you think about who he is UP against) well,... with Great Power Comes Great Responsibility.

GPCGR. Forever and always.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:25 pm

I'm not saying he isn't tough as nails, because I know he is. It is just the shear magnitude of force upon him. The panel when Spiderman is first clocked by dark Colossus, his mask implodes on itself. I thought his head collapsed on itself right there! Magik said he was holding back, so that can explain his endurance there, but in the explosion? If Wolverine had been in Spiderman's place, they would have shown him torn to pieces and burnt to a crisp, relying on his healing factor to do it's work. Is there something about Spidey that makes him more resistant to a cosmic blast than anyone else?

Not trying to be a downer, but I am just looking at him as a realist and fan. I know one thing... Spiderman will be out for the rest of the Series, because if he isn't, the sacrifice made and the amount of damage is not being appreciated.

That being said, what an amazing issue for Spiderman!! He was funny, he was heroic, he was a mentor for Hope and proved himself as an Avenger. There are not many comics where the hero gets a major ass kicking like this and still is considered the winner. But if anyone can do it, Spiderman can.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Wahnsinn » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:25 pm

Oo! Oo! Spidey got his powers from an irradiated spider, right? The Phoenix is a cosmic force, so the blast was probably cosmic radiation. Spidey must be more resistant to all forms of radiation because of how he got his powers! Comic book science! ;)

I must agree, though. That punch looked like it caved in his face. He shouldn't've been conscious after that, and he likely would have been brain-damaged. Even as tough as he is, that alone probably should have been a fatal blow. Of course, we could just chalk it up to artistic exaggeration and say that Colossus was pulling his punches to the degree that Spidey would only end up with broken bones, cuts, and a major concussion. There's not much excuse for Magik's blow not being lethal, though. She clearly wasn't all that interested in seeing him walk away alive. And Colossus standing on his torso? Unless Colossus resisted using his full weight by using levitation, Spidey should've been suffering too much internal bleeding to move, provided he wasn't a bloody stain on the ground.

That fight kind of stretches the limits of suspension of disbelief. It reminds me of the way Batman occasionally bounces back from serious injuries far too quickly for a regular person. They should've been a little more careful with that part.
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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 pm

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Re: Avengers VS X-Men (AvX 2012)

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:47 pm

it is tragic and will affect the comic world and community as much as anything has... Much like Second Coming did for Nightcrawler fans...
For funny tweets from NIGHTCRAWLER, follow my humor account http://www.twitter.com/fuzzybluejerk and spread it around to your comic friends!
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