Re: Uncanny X-force Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:01 am
I feel Kurt's death was indeed for the greater good, but Darkholme's death I cannot honestly justify, at least right now...
creators • friends • nightcrawler
https://nightscrawlers.com/forum/
Over the past couple decades, the only purpose of killing off major comic book characters has been to whip the fans into a furor and (temprarily) boost sales among clueless speculators who think a "death of so-and-so" issue might be worth something. I'd simply be okay with bringing Kurt back by any means, but preferably by something simple like one of those miracles he always believed could happen.Ult_Sm86 wrote:I will ne be convinced otherwise. There is no counter-argument that works to me. Bringing Wagner back completely overwrites any meaning (what little there may be in your opinion) to his death. It goes against the purpose of killing off any character.
That said -- Darkholme is here to stay, let's hope. For a while, at the least.
Ok, not sure if this is off-topic or on, continuing the relevance of death concept, but I suppose it ties in...Ult_Sm86 wrote: I say give his death some time to really be relevant. When his absence is a constant sting, evident in the writing and the characters' reactions, his absence should bring about his return.
Oh now THAT would be a twist all right.Ult_Sm86 wrote: What do people think of that cover, seriously? #33 is a really creepy cover! Notice the tattoo has the same color as the blood spatter on his face (and body). What clever artwork, it almost looks like the tattoo is blood on Wagner's face rather than Darkholme's natural body art. Could we be dead on here? Is this a fractured, mirrored version of Kurt Wagner that we've been dreading?
I think that would have depended on Marvel being willing to give Kurt some character focus, which hadn't been done on a story arc since Chuck Austen. Second Coming was about Hope and Scott/Emma. Even Wolverine and X-Force were kind of secondary during that time. Kurt's death was incidental, which is for me, as a fan, insulting. They played it up to be a big martyr thing and a noble sacrifice, but, instead of focusing on his death and its impact, they focused more on Hope and then Wolverine's grief. Yeah, it was crappy, IMO. No, the reactions weren't especially realistic, but that's probably to be expected in a comic book platform. Kurt's death was essentially used to develop Logan's character and give him some angst scenes, and could possibly have precipitated Schism and Wolverine finally having enough. It definitely was what motivated Hank to side with Logan over Scott.Angelique wrote:Regarding Wagner's death, I feel that every opportunity Marvel had to make it really powerful and relevant was already blown. It could have resulted in the disbanding of X-Force, if Wolverine was actually thinking instead of just stabbing stuff. It could have been the cause of Schism. (Heck, Kurt could have led Schism if he had survived.).....
Rightly or wrongly, Marvel is all about focusing on the boy/young man market. We wouldn't have so much in the way of Chuck Norris personalities and peek-a-boo girl costumes otherwise.Angelique wrote: I'm not saying Darkholme should be killed off, but why on earth does anyone think Marvel needs another character geared toward young male readers? Why does Marvel think they need to stuff another vengeance driven sociopath into books already filled with a monotonous glut of anti-heroes? I don't want readers to associate Nightcrawler with being boring and preachy, but I also could do without readers seeing him as just another stabbity rage machine. The danger with the direction Darkholme has taken is that he is a one-note character, and the only thing that would make him interesting to me is if they have him thinking about something other than vengeance.
You've got it backwards. The loincloth costume was after AoA. I started getting into comics with AoA and experienced the loincloth period as it happened, rather than getting it in back-issues. I checked the numbers: #87 was the first after AoA, and #98 was the loincloth.Sundown wrote:Darkholme was brought in under the design concept imagery of the original Nightcrawler, but in an edgier version, to fit with the current Marvel trend. If I'm not completely mistaken, the concept of Darkholme was based on 616 Kurt in the latter part of the Excalibur run -- the sabre and loincloth era, which he had lines like "I want you to go in there and make a mess" -- kind of a tough-guy thing. Darkholme even had a similar costume in the AoA revisit. Incidentally, TJ's father seems based on a similar model, though obviously much older.
Ah, cool, I knew they were related but was trying to put the chicken before the egg. I was reading at the time, but the years can muddle together. That's a lot of blue mileage. Come to think of it, 616 Kurt's loincloth and swords might have had to do with the popularity of the AoA arc. Maybe they thought the gritty character got a good reception.Wahnsinn wrote:You've got it backwards. The loincloth costume was after AoA. I started getting into comics with AoA and experienced the loincloth period as it happened, rather than getting it in back-issues. I checked the numbers: #87 was the first after AoA, and #98 was the loincloth.Sundown wrote:Darkholme was brought in under the design concept imagery of the original Nightcrawler, but in an edgier version, to fit with the current Marvel trend. If I'm not completely mistaken, the concept of Darkholme was based on 616 Kurt in the latter part of the Excalibur run -- the sabre and loincloth era, which he had lines like "I want you to go in there and make a mess" -- kind of a tough-guy thing. Darkholme even had a similar costume in the AoA revisit. Incidentally, TJ's father seems based on a similar model, though obviously much older.
It makes me wonder, considering that arc basically ended Austen's career, if other writers were afraid to touch him.Wahnsinn wrote: After the trainwreck of "The Draco," nobody really did anything with him.
Absolutely. The comic genre has always been unique from other forms of entertainment. It's like Marvel and DC are trying to turn it into something it's not, to attract new readers. Yet if they lure in reader by films or games, they don't stay, because characters are no longer written in a compelling and consistent manner. They can get a gimmick fix in other mediums with less investment. In short, alienating old readers to obtain new readers isn't the best idea, it needs to be a compromise. The same things that originally got those old readers to invest so much time and interest in the genre would work to turn new readers into long term ones.Wahnsinn wrote: Honestly, I think Marvel and DC are scrambling for sales. They're desperately trying to be relevant, which wouldn't be so bad if it didn't come across as just one more gimmick. Much like Kurt was written into a corner, they've backed themselves into one that will be their demise if they don't get out of it fast. I think they've forgotten how to attract and keep an audience.
I hope that's the case.Wahnsinn wrote: Bringing it back to Darkholme, I think they could do something interesting with him. They're making it look like he might not make it out of this arc, but that could be to not give away the end of the story.
Yeah, I wondered about that. I think Remender was just fishing for an angle to give everyone on X-Force personal stakes with members of the Brotherhood. Betsy was a given, as she has been a focus character throughout, I think he just had to find excuses for everyone else. I think that's where Darkholme's wife came in, to be honest. She seemed like a thrown in plot-device. Wolverine has so many enemies, it was probably hard to choose one that would really hit home in a big way for him, to the point where the arc was going to change him as a character. Remender talked about having to get approval for some particular part of the story in this final arc, that he didn't think he could get approved. I'm really, really wondering what that is. I don't feel like it is Wolverine's change of heart, as that's been on the books for some time, judging by interviews. They knew they wanted him on Uncanny Avengers and the whole point of AvX was to get to the point of merging the two franchises. Then, the whole point of M-Day and Hope was to get to the point of AvX. I think all this has been planned for years.Wahnsinn wrote: On a random note, am I the only one confused by Daken being in this at all? He was rather dead at the end of his solo title. Even if he faked blowing himself up, he was told in no uncertain terms that he had destroyed his healing factor and was dying. It'd be nice if they'd address that.
Ellis was the writer at that time. It wouldn't surprise me if he wanted to take Kurt in that direction anyway.Sundown wrote:Ah, cool, I knew they were related but was trying to put the chicken before the egg. I was reading at the time, but the years can muddle together. That's a lot of blue mileage. Come to think of it, 616 Kurt's loincloth and swords might have had to do with the popularity of the AoA arc. Maybe they thought the gritty character got a good reception.
Well, it wasn't Kurt's fault the arc was horrible. It would've been horrible attached to any character. Besides, it's not exactly unusual for disliked stories to get ignored. It wasn't a long-running thing, unlike the priest stuff, and probably could've been dismissed as a fever dream or something.It makes me wonder, considering that arc basically ended Austen's career, if other writers were afraid to touch him.
Not only do they manage to alienate old readers, but they've created a standard format that is probably unattractive to new readers. I really think the move to elongated story arcs was a mistake. Six issues just to get one full story? Are they even thinking about what kind of time and financial investment that is, between trips to stores and often $4 price tags? The average Marvel story arc will run $24 and take 2 hours (assuming a generous 20 minutes per book) to read, and that's stretched over a 6-month release schedule if nothing is delayed. It's possible to get a couple Blu-rays for 4 hours of movie entertainment, not counting extras, or 4 paperback novels that each take several hours to read for the same amount of money. It used to be you could grab almost any random comic and expect to get a full story you could understand, even if it had some long-running threads weaved within it. Comics no longer represent a cheap, easy-to-pick-up hobby.Absolutely. The comic genre has always been unique from other forms of entertainment. It's like Marvel and DC are trying to turn it into something it's not, to attract new readers. Yet if they lure in reader by films or games, they don't stay, because characters are no longer written in a compelling and consistent manner. They can get a gimmick fix in other mediums with less investment. In short, alienating old readers to obtain new readers isn't the best idea, it needs to be a compromise. The same things that originally got those old readers to invest so much time and interest in the genre would work to turn new readers into long term ones.
I think all this has been planned for years.
Maybe it's the female Fantomex thing he didn't expect to get approval for? Or maybe he gives Deadpool his healing factor back.With Fentomex added now to the new UXF line-up post Remender -- she's either a female Fanto or EVA in Fanto's costume, by the looks -- that's all team members accounted for, including Evan, but still no sign of Darkholme. Bishop is the other hinted at future member of UXF.
He's suppose to be someone they go up against very early, but the prediction is that he'll end up joining. It wouldn't surprise me, given that the title is not only looking female heavy (maybe they're testing the waters for a female only book?) but also is composed of minorities. Storm & Bets are obvious, Puck is a size minority, Spiral is an alien and who knows what Femtomex will be -- a clone of a clone who used to be a ship I guess. It's the opposite extreme of the other X-books.Wahnsinn wrote: Is Bishop supposed to be a member? I know he's supposed to be involved with the title somehow, but I haven't been reading all the interviews and stuff.
Wahnsinn wrote: After the trainwreck of "The Draco," nobody really did anything with him. He occasionally came out of the wallpaper to remind us of how religious and mopey he was or, later, to get stabbed in the chest and pout about being useless.
Kurt and mohawk Storm....mwahahahaUlt_Sm86 wrote: Maybe Kurt Darkholme isn't revealed yet. Could we finally have our Kuroro relationship we've constantly fantasized about? (:shifty ... Well, not constantly. )
Because Betsy can't carry a title with Puck and Spiral.Dazy wrote:I don't understand the logic behind this.
Bamfing_Bob wrote:Still, this may be a good title. But no Kurt and no Wade leaves Bob a dull boy. Gonna stick with my current stash: Uncanny Avengers, Happy (image comics), X-Treme X-Men, and Before Watchmen. Without those two characters to keep my attention, I don't feel it is worth the time or trouble...