Two Thumbs Down on Ultimate X-Men #23 and 24

Dark Bamf · Post by **Dark Bamf** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:38 pm

We don't read Ultimate X-Men. Hell, we're lucky to see any X-Men these days, but we're trying to catch up a bid, and Paty bought Ultimate X-Men #23 and #24 the other day, out of curiosity.

We both hated 'em. We hated them so badly upon just opening the books and looking at the art, that we didn't even read them. Paty said she was tempted to chuck them in the trash, but we're too well-conditioned a pair of comics packrats to do anything like that.

Now here's the thing. I--and probably Paty too--would probably have liked the penciled art. But it was finished without any blacks, without any contrast, and then was colored in a washed-out, greyed, hazy finish. There was nothing there for our eyes to see except an irritating lack of color or detail.

This is supposed to be what 'hot' books look like these days? What the hell is wrong with those morons at Marvel?

:

ahmed · Post by **ahmed** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:42 pm

Not all of them are like that. Usually the art's a lot better...

The storyline kinda sucks, specifically the robot thing...

Ultimate Spidey's better.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:47 pm

That art is by Kaare Andrews, who is actually one of my favorite artists. I agree on the lack of blacks being unfavorable, but I love his style and I wish that he was the regular artist on the book.

I was actually very impressed by his work in those two issues.

All a matter of taste, I suppose.

Miqque · Post by **Miqque** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:22 pm

Well, Dave, you and Paty aren't going to get any happier. Personally, I really like Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch's Ultimates (sort of a re-tell of the Avengers, through a glass darkly). Ultimate X-Men I'm reading, and knowing Millar's work everything looks desperately bad for the good guys, then the event one is not paying attention to turns the tables (my hunch it's the ever-present butterfly in UXM, thought by many to be Mystique watching over the Xavier-controlled Magneto). When Magneto's Xavier-repressed self is let loose, all Hell will follow. (Paty might like this part of the arc, in 2-3 issues.) Xavier is a manipulative bastard in this series.

As to the art, if you've got the issues I'm thinking of, the first is Adam Kubert. Not swell, except the one panel of Wolverine mid-air. The Kaare Andrews was a jolt first time I saw it. What the ...?

But it kinda sorta worked to tell the story, if you like the Manga-influenced stuff.

I got that ...grrrrrr... when they gonna get ON with it ... feeling.

Besides, the run that's happening is New X-Men. Like I've said, I like Quitely's work (and Van Sciver's, but he's off the title now). Igor Korday is fairly good, but something weird happens when he tries to draw Logan and it becomes really crude.

It ain't the Bullpen no more.

Really, most titles are bumbling along in fits and starts. Maybe something about too many cooks...

So HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:18 pm

I've been thinking of dropping it for a while now...but I never rush into these things...I thought about dropping Spawn for two years before I actually did it...

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:00 am

I actually like Kaare's art, but Dave you will be happy to know those two issues he was filling in for the regular artist Andy (i ht ink that's the one it is) Kubert who will be back next issue.

I don't think Ultimate in general if for you and Paty tho.... it is aimed at older teenagers and young 20's who are completely new to comics... and i don't htink you'd like what they did to Nightcrawler (he's the one in the middle of the title graphic. that's what the art NORMALLY looks like... but this Nightcrawler is 16, does nto speak a word of english, and was captured and tortured/conditioned by Weapon X to be a killing machine against his will)

I don't think you'd like New, either. nice art, generally. but the stories are extremely bizarre and Morrison is doing some very odd things to some characters. doesn't have any of your characters, anyway

well, it's got Jean, but different costume.though.... Thunderbird's original costume turned up last issue, and your design for the Shi-ar space ship the issue before that.

you may want to pick up Uncanny instead if you think you can stomach some anime styled art once in a while. Uncanny is going to be going for 18 issues a year or more with several double sized issues, so they have 2 artists that alternate 3-4 issue storyarcs to acomplish this. Nightcrawler's origin will be revealed issue #427, and he is leaving the priesthood between 417 and 420. they are currently just about to put out #416
Archangel's costume is jsut plain goofy looking, but the others are nice, i think. they took the leather look and spiced it up with some more colour and personal touches. Juggy's new costume is really cool. still got the helmet, and all that but coloured black in the middle and red on the sides. pretty sharp looing. Kurts costume looks likethe one on the left up top, but wiht a few minor differences.

or X-Treme. i myself don't like this title currently, but... it is written by Claremont, has one artist that is very consistent, and high on grand adventure and all that.

Miqque · Post by **Miqque** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 7:51 pm

IWO - Diet vanilla Coke?

I think I'll send y'all a copy of the Tpb E Is For Exctinction anyhow. I think you'll like Grant Morrison's twist with the Sentinels, and it's the most consistent of the lot.

Coincidentally, yesterday I got New X-Men #134, which has a back story. Rotating on the title (by story arc, theoretically) were Frank Quitely, Ethan Van Sciver and Igor Korday. Now, Frank and Ethan are two of the slowest artists around (much as I love 'em, and they're the first to admit it). So, lotsa late issues, retailer troubles with an issue with an artist not solicited, that kinda thing. Ethan was about 5-6 pages into pencilling #134 when he was cut from the title, and ended up going to work over at DC. (A new version of The Outsiders with Dick Grayson/ Nightwing running the motley bunch). So #134 has an EVS cover, and the art is by Keron grant, brought in at the last minute. We do have 6 pages of "lost art" from Ethan, which is a shame, as he'd just hit his stride. This one focuses on some of the new students.

Still, I see what you are saying about contrast. Apparently much thinner lines are used in inking, and with the digitized color many things fade to something that is not paint, and is not pen-and-ink. I wonder what your pencils would look like after this process?

I'm gettin' all pie-eyed for Thanksgiving, watching the Bond marathon on TNN (You Only Live Twice now).

L'chaim!

littlebamf · Post by **littlebamf** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:22 pm

Ultimate X-men?
I lost heart as soon as I saw an Ultimate design for preety dippy kitty pryde and stopped reading with #21.
can you blame me?

the art work is fairly decent, and there was some good lines, but no. Not a title worth it's weight in coffee jars...
god, I'm obsessed!:rolleyes:
and that's not the only thing...

:

Erynne · Post by **Erynne** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:38 am

I wish they'd bring back the old artwork....it was a lot better than the cartoon screen cap crap they have now.

Miqque · Post by **Miqque** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:51 pm

Dave-

Take a peek at this. You might like Hitch's nw Iron Man armor. (I thought his JLA stuff was too busy.)

http://www.theartofcomics.com/

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:07 am

the only hting i don't like about th e ultimates art is Hitch uses photo reference... which isn't bad, mind you, but he uses Samuel L. Jackson as his Nick Fury and it's SO obvious :p i see Fury, and i see Samuel L. Jackson with an eyepatch...

Nightfollower · Post by **Nightfollower** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:06 pm

I dont read Ultimate X-Men. I was going to buy an issue when I bought my first issues of Exiles and X-Treme, but the art was wacky to me (but i do like ultimate nighty). I guess I'm with ya on this, Dave.

ahmed · Post by **ahmed** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:51 pm

The latest one, #25 I think, has a different artwork and a little Phoenix add-on.

And, a kinda cool return of Magneto, kind of...yeah.

:

Dark Bamf · Post by **Dark Bamf** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 6:56 pm

Originally posted by Nandireya
I've been thinking of dropping it for a while now...but I never rush into these things...I thought about dropping Spawn for two years before I actually did it...

I know what you mean. It took me about two years to decide to drop Cerebus, and as soon as I did Dave Sym came out with an issue so funny I had to go back and start up for a while again. But Sym was mostly jerking himself off on paper, and I got tired of it.

In answer to other comments--Paty had been reading NXMen, but has given up because of Grant Morrison's stupid and incomprehensible writing. I've picked up Chuck Austin's run on UXMen up to now, but haven't gotten a chance to read them.

And Miqque--every time you send me a site to look at, either my computer can't handle it, or I have to do so much searching that I lose interest and quit before I find what you want me to look at. So I still haven't seen Iron Man's Ultimate armor. And anyway, I still like the original gold and red armor.

:

Miqque · Post by **Miqque** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 10:45 pm

Originally posted by Dark Bamf
And Miqque--every time you send me a site to look at, either my computer can't handle it, or I have to do so much searching that I lose interest and quit before I find what you want me to look at. So I still haven't seen Iron Man's Ultimate armor. And anyway, I still like the original gold and red armor.

:

It's still gold and red - just that now it's armor, not some sknitight nonsense. Sorry about the sites, I'll be kindly and be much more specific.

Come back in a few minutes, i'll upload some pics to my site and link them here. Maybe that will work better.

Okay - Edit City. The descriptions are mine, and the art is raw. I picked these so you and Paty could look at the pencilling. Please tell me if these are easy to see, or if there's any problem with the links.

Links:
Giant man being transported by helicopters

Ultimates #2 cover (pencils for image above)

Iron Man pounded by Hulk (#5, pg 11)

Thor ending the fight with the Hulk

Stark interview after fight (#6, pg 5)

Hope these show up!
-M.

PS - No E for Extinction for you! You've seen it! But that first shot of the Master Mold in the jungle, ain't that great? And I guess the Scots are all an aquired taste.

matlock · Post by **matlock** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:24 pm

Originally posted by Dark Bamf

I know what you mean. It took me about two years to decide to drop Cerebus, and as soon as I did Dave Sym came out with an issue so funny I had to go back and start up for a while again. But Sym was mostly jerking himself off on paper, and I got tired of it.

:

Cerebus got funny again for an issue? How'd that happen? Dave S. must've hit his head and fallen of his misogynist soapbox.

Matt

Garble · Post by **Garble** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:47 am

See, the thing I didn't like about these issues is the fact that the Beast gets outsmarted by the Blob!

I mean, really?

MabusRex · Post by **MabusRex** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:15 am

Ultimate Iron-Man *swoons*

Dark Bamf · Post by **Dark Bamf** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:35 pm

Originally posted by Miqque
Originally posted by Dark Bamf
So I still haven't seen Iron Man's Ultimate armor. And anyway, I still like the original gold and red armor.

:
It's still gold and red - just that now it's armor, not some sknitight nonsense. Sorry about the sites, I'll be kindly and be much more specific.

Oh, no, now it's too Gundam. That's not Iron Man.

[quote}Okay - Edit City. The descriptions are mine, and the art is raw. I picked these so you and Paty could look at the pencilling. Please tell me if these are easy to see, or if there's any problem with the links. [/quote]

I haven't looked at the links yet. I'll let you know.

:

Dark Bamf · Post by **Dark Bamf** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:44 pm

Originally posted by Miqque

Links:
Giant man being transported by helicopters

Ultimates #2 cover (pencils for image above)

Iron Man pounded by Hulk (#5, pg 11)

Thor ending the fight with the Hulk

Stark interview after fight (#6, pg 5)

Hope these show up!
-M.

PS - No E for Extinction for you! You've seen it! But that first shot of the Master Mold in the jungle, ain't that great? And I guess the Scots are all an aquired taste.

Ok, I looked--the first couple came in easily. Why transport Giant-Man like that? Why can't he just shrink down, or walk?

The Iron Man/Hulk fight came in at a slow c-r-a-w-l. I finally clicked away before it was completely in. The Thor/Hulk and whatever came after, I never saw at all.

And what's E for Extinction? You always seem to assume I know more about what you're talking about than I actually do.

:

matlock[quote:] Cerebus got funny again for an issue? How'd that happen? Dave S. must've hit his head and fallen of his misogynist soapbox.

Matt [iquote]

Yeah, there was one issue after Jaka's Story, after Melmoth, all that interminable stuff, where he cut back to Lordd Julius's palace; Lord Julius came home from a vacation and discovered the palace was full of Lord Julius impersonators, all of whom were dead ringers for him. It was Groucho at his best--funny as hell. Then Sym went back to the same old grind. :dead:

:

Miqque · Post by **Miqque** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:32 pm

Ok, I looked--the first couple came in easily. Why transport Giant-Man like that? Why can't he just shrink down, or walk?

Hank Pym used Jan's blood (she's a mutant) to come up with a Giant Man formula. It requires hormone shots to "size up" or "size down". Pym is also a wife-beating megalomaniac, about to get his clock cleaned by Captain America.

Too Gundam? Fie! We doth disagree, Noble One.

The Iron Man/Hulk fight came in at a slow c-r-a-w-l. I finally clicked away before it was completely in. The Thor/Hulk and whatever came after, I never saw at all.

These are all <100K, so they should not take too long. My server has been a bit overwhelmed of late, so there might be a lag. (You're on a dial-up, not cable modem, right?)
You can (on PCs, not sure how to do this on iMac) start up several downloads or links at once. Paty may be able to help translate from PC instructions. What you do is right-click (the one that brings up a menu) and there's one command to "Open Link In New Browser Window" (words to that effect). The window will open right away. Minimize that, and move on to the next link. Do the same thing for the other links. By the time you do so, the first one will have downloaded. Or, you could just click the big ones and go out for a sandwich.

And what's E for Extinction? You always seem to assume I know more about what you're talking about than I actually do.

I'm afraid of being too wordy or preaching to choir. E is for Extinction is the trade paperback collecting the first arc of the grant Morrison story. You did say Paty was following New X-Men, and if so you have the issues. (It's the Cassandra Nova - Wild Sentinels - Shi'ar arc - if that doesn't sound familiar, let me know.)

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:02 am

Just to clarify, Giant Man was transported at full size, because his cloathing dosen't grow with him. He could have gone in and changed to full size, but the tabloids would have likely had a field day. Headlines of "Giant Man not so Giant," and the like.

As for walking, the Ultimate's base is on an artificial island off the coast.

Magic Rabbit · Post by **Magic Rabbit** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 5:24 am

I guess I’m in the minority when it comes to Ultimate Xmen – I love the title and the art for 23 and 24 was great! I like seeing some artists who aren’t just knocking off someone else’s style.

MM is doing a fabulous job, IMHO, on both Ultimate Xmen and the Ultimates (which is one of the best titles out there). Hitch’s art is great too.

... but that's just my opinion....

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:44 pm

:mags:
twenty four and twenty three were just a blur of pastel color for me. the eyes need high contrast...which you sued to get in the books with blacks defining everything. this was just artsy fartsy computer crap to me. Sorta...Oh! let's see what we can do now...look, isn't this clever?
I missed Ultimate twenty five...I shasll have to go get it because I did manage to pick up twenty six on wed...and the art was fine. I don't think I care for Magneto being responsible for Xavier being wheelchair-ized. No...that doesn't work for me at all. But then the Ultimate universe is revamp so the poor little kiddies don't have to deal with thirty years of canon.
the problem is...I have heard, from sources on another list... that Sony is in negotiations to buy marvel...and they want to ditch the backstories on everybody and start over ala Ultimate...They want to Ultimize the whole damn thing and phase out the other titles that carry on the canon history.
this is disturbing...at least to me...and if it happens, I, for one, will walk away from Marvel forever. Mags will not be the character I know and love anymore...neither will nightcrawler, or storm or anyone! So why bother? Let the juveniles have their remake...they don't know what they will be missing... real characters with depth and backstory that gives them more dimensions than just one...or two, if you count the thickness of the page...
That is NOT the Thor I know...bBTW...I looked at all the links. Now, taken out of context, we are not looking at storytelling here...Yes, black and white art or color art properly inked is easy to see. It is actually easier for me if there is color with the blacks...but I had no problem with the art you posted...except to think that Thor was not the Thor I knew and Iron Man's armor was hideous.
I am sorry...I never got into all the lumps and bumps add ons that Jim Lee started and other artists took to extreme...to the point where you didn't see the character for all the funky armor that they were wearing...which was just ugly and served no purpose, as far as I was concerned. I like seeing sleek ladies and gents with well designed costumes that show off their phisiques...not nekkid bodies, but phisiques...the guys are by and large not baring their midrifts and legs, why should the females??? this makes absolutely no sense for warriors...it is just prurient interest for the boys. On the other hand, I don't want extraneous padding messing up a nice thigh or shoulder. ..and little X's where the nipples on breasts should be is stupid as all get out. I mean...gimme a break!!! HEY, GUYS...LOOK HERE...AN X WHERE THE NIPPLE SHOULD BE...AREN'T WE CUTE??? Pardon me while I go toss my cookies...and I'm nottalking baked goods here...
The costumes are ugly as sin these days...no design sense at all.I wouldn't be seen dead in em...big yellow X's on your chest...Ptui!
and New x men is dreary ...everything beiges and pinks and browns...PTUI...
So, OK...red, yellow and blue was garish...but Hey! this is ALL IN COLOR FOR A DIME!!! So it's not a dime any more...but we still have color when the colorists wanna use it. The best computer coloring in the world was done in the early spawn issues...and the early witchblade issues. And Uncanny, from the recent issues I have seen is pretty good...but the two issues of Ultimate that had the mangaesque stuff was a total loss. Ok..if that was a fill in maaybe I shall look around it. People on my Magneto board didn't like the portrayal of Mags in 25...but 26 was acceptable art at least. Can't say much for their portrayal of Mags...as a total bastard...but Xavier isn't much better, I guess. Of course,I never liked X to begin with...gave me the creepy crawlies from the get go...but I think Harras's dislike of Mags has permeated this incarnation...and die hard Mags fans will hate it, no matter how well drawn.
Marvel is hellbent on self destruction. All these revamps and retcons are only muddying the waters...DC style... and the Ultimate series is Marvel's attempt to do a DC-like Crisis...and IT DIDN'T WORK AT DC EITHER!!! Even DC amdits that! but some people gotta learn the hard way...don't they? those who are too stupid to learn from the past...or others mistakes... are doomed to repeat it...or them, as the case may be. I think we are about to witness the second implosion of Marvel,people...cuz the vast majority of fans out there right now have been with Marvel storylines for decades...not months...and form the bulkof the money-having, money-spending readership. and Marvelwill learn this to it's sorrow, I fear...probably too late.
Paty
:mags:

jogurt · Post by **jogurt** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:32 am

ach I can understand all this to well Paty...Of course about taste is to discuss but ...sigh....im not very happy with the whole overcolering thingy...Its like a good german tradition around Christmas called "Greuel Julklapp"where you took some very useless or ugly (or both ) may a old sock or a some very ugly statur or a (not used) Role of toilette paper and packed it in wonderful package with bows and nice paper around. So you give it away and the people game around....
So you can do well with color you can hide under colors you can mess the color. But the importent should be the inked under all these FX PHOTOshop theater.
Oh man could write more about..and I did but not here...if want to read more about...read this
http://blueelf.easyjournal.com/
entry 12/21/02