Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Blob55 · Post by **Blob55** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:07 am

In the Incredibles, most of the Ex-Super Heroes got killed, leaving a few unknows left.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:12 pm

That may be what *happened*, but as I said,

Wasn't the plot to make everyone a super so no one was unique or original anymore? Via technology, 'course.

what happens by the end, and the scheme/plot/theme of the story are all completely different things.

Blob55 · Post by **Blob55** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:10 pm

Ult, why do you hate Beak so much? What did he do to you?

Now, let's get back on track.

I've always wondered if there could be a chance for a normal human to join the X-Men, because what if a human was bullied and hounded down like a mutant because of being a big Mutant Lover.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:55 am

1) I don't hate beak. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I actually disliked all his stories, I disliked the drama with the babies, I thought a lot of it was soap-opera(esque) fluff. I also think he was relatively useless. Yeah, intriguing character, but I'd rather see a graphic novel about him and his emotional journeys than see him romping around in what is supposed to be a Super Hero Team.

That was the big reason for Decimation when you break it down. It stopped being about the Super Heroes and started just being about super people. Who the hell wants to read that??

2) As for normal humans joining X-Men, in September, you will be seeing Spider-Man join their ranks. Tech. he's a normal human who is genetically mutated.
Someone on CBR or ComiXforum put it best saying: "Now the guy who gets no respect joins the species that has never had respect". It makes sense, though I challenged Brevoort temporarily on this and asked him how Spidey can handle being on a team LIKE the X-Men's and still handle his Spectacular, Amazing, and rather average Peter Parkery adventures.
Brevoort responded with "The same way Logan/Deadpool/Thor/Captain can while still having their own titles/adventures." While I get what he's saying, Spidey is no mutant healer, God, or damn-near immortal national symbol juiced with "Super Serum". He's no Hulk either. He got bit by a radioactive spider, and not to downplay my favoritest hero ever, (he is still quite astounding) I think they're going to short change him on the team. Or should I say, they're going to have to, and make him a team player, which will change how his character acts in his own books...etc, etc,.... I'm still on the fence about the whole ordeal--clearly.

[Edited on 24/6/10 by Ult_Sm86]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:34 am

If you think about it, the X-books after Decimation have been more about superpowered people than about superheroes, too. Decimation didn't exactly do much to correct that problem, and at the moment, the X-books' most heroic characters are dead, in permaphase, relegated to the status of Wakandan housewife, or off the team.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:02 am

I'm going to actually accept your challenge there and rebuttal with; Storm is far form a Wakandan housewife.

To me, from what I've seen, she and Black Panther are a loving couple who work together and overcome great odds and threats to their country and continent. I would suggest actually reading the series before making a call like that.
To quote wikipedia (because it sure as shit does a better job summarizing than I do):

Confronting the Panther God Bast, Storm asserts that she is not limited to being one or the other or anything else and that she is unafraid to do whatever is necessary to fulfill those responsibilities. Regaining Bast's favor, the two defeat the Shadow King and Storm decides that she will remain Queen of Wakanda and remain with the X-Men, refusing to choose between them.

If that is a Wakandan housewife... I'd like to see a Wakandan queen.
Also, Dr. Doom invaded their country. And Storm and Panther held him off. I think that's pretty cool.

As for the X-Books being less about Super Heroes, I also don't see where your'e getting that at all. Kurt could have died from a bad case of walking pneumonia, suicide stemming from a confusion based on his religion, or other highly unikely scenarios, but he went out as a HERO, saving "Hope", and theoretically all of Mutantkind. Also, I haven't seen a single X-Man act like anything BUT a hero this entire time, save Emma & Scott, who really need to actually DO SOMETHING, but that's 'cause Fraction doesn't picture Emma as a fighter, I think.

It's safe to say, New X-Men (Morrison's run) and Austen's Uncanny were by far the most soap opera-esque the X-Books have ever been and lacked the most action, and the reason for that was because of the abuse of creativity with the mutant character. There were just too damn many.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:52 am

The X-books since Decimation have focused on the characters fighting primarily for their own survival, which while not a bad cause, is also not as heroic as the X-Men's objectives were prior to Decimation.

I will point out yet again that making absolutely no attempt to save the life of a gravely wounded person is not heroic, and leaving the body just lying around for any length of time for no reason other than to show a "dramatic" panel of everyone gawking at the body is not only unheroic, it's disrespectful. And in the same arc, we've been treated not just to the "heroic" response to Nightcrawler's mortal wounding and death, but the very high respect the X-Men had for Ariel's life.

Heroes also don't send people off on a mission without disclosing all known hazards, they don't imprison or execute people without due process, they don't torture, and we've seen the X-Men do all of that.

All I need is one example of the X-Men behaving unheroically to prove my point, and I have several.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:00 am

Heroes also don't send people off on a mission without disclosing all known hazards, they don't imprison or execute people without due process, they don't torture, and we've seen the X-Men do all of that.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Marvel is not DC. Yeah, they don't like killing, but there is no Justice League contract being handed out to Cyclops, Thor, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Punisher (not that Castle would sign it).

More to the point, while I agree it's low of Scott and abusive of his power/position as leader of the mutant RACE (not the X-Men), I think you're misconstruing story development, increased drama, for ... well I don't know what else for, but you're forgetting it's an ongoing story arc and they need to do something to keep your intent to read the series besides the same old hat/rabbit trick.

Look, if heroes always acted like heroes, and not vigilantes, or didn't come across situations that made them question their ethics, then they wouldn't really be heroes would they? They'd be .... obnoxious. They'd be Boy Scouts.
They would be, for all intensive purposes, Superman, who is inarguably the dullest character ever conceived because that is how he is most frequently written. His values as a hero are rarely challenged, just his might/strength/other amazing abilities.

My point was they were not acting like heroes bound by ethical confounds or even heroes who are forced to question their values they build their team on, but they were in fact acting like Desperate Housewives. Those two authors had the X-Men, and all of mutant kind, making babies, making big to-do's over who is dating who, and sometimes a concentration on a poorly run family household and Juggernaut's shitty attempt to fix it.

It was mellodrama and it needed to go.

==edit: Thank you Slarti==

[Edited on 24/6/10 by Ult_Sm86]

[Edited on 24/6/10 by Ult_Sm86]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:36 am

I am dismayed at how low standards have sunk. It actually is possible to write heroes who aren't boy scouts- Nightcrawler being a terrific example. Even so, there is room for a "boy scoult," or better yet, the archetypal Stalwart in any superhero team to keep the team from descending into a morass of moral ambiguity.

And yes, there was a whole issue of X-Men not killing. Nightcrawler openly admitted to it. Storm tried to follow it. Havok, Rachel, and Polaris left the X-Men because they were out for blood, and, as they put it, "X-Men don't kill." Cyclops did not form his hit squad before (temporarily) disbanding the X-Men.

And please don't act like our only alternative to the current state of the X-books is the X-books under Morrison and Austen.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:45 am

What would you have then, the '90's?

With the exception of Excalibur/AoA, most comics in the '90's really sucked. Maximum Carnage rocked too, but Clone Saga? Some of the other stuff? Not worth the time. Artwork, writing, it was all fuzzy/funky.

And yeah, in terms of the last ten years of X-Men, I think Yost, Fraction, & Zeb Wells are all some of the best writers Marvel has seen in a while in terms of X-Books. Wells has also done an incredible job on Amazing as well. (Seriously I push this book as much/frequently as possible. It. Is. RAWK.)

You say "current state" as if this state is worse than Chuck Austen? I still say that Yost killing off Kurt with the arm of a monstrous bigot through the heart while he faithfully defends Hope is far, far, far better a turn of events than what Chuck Austen did to him. It was character rape.

And I agree the issue with X-Men not killing is important. But they are honestly just putting their characters in uncomfortable situations so that you can read and relate. Why don't you pick up next issue, there's actually a major turn of events coming up. Wolverine and Domino get caught in a moral snag when Logan begins to question the validity of their missions after Domino actually gets hurt. (Or so that's how its looking.)

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:42 am

Yost had Kurt dying as a result of a mistake no veteran of any kind of armed or unarmed combat would make. He turned his back on the enemy. The death also showed a lack of knowledge regarding Kurt's teleportation, which is instantaneous or at least fast enough that even Bastion would have greater difficulty preparing countermeasures than he did against Rogue.

I'm not saying Yost is a worse writer than Austen. Far from it. I'm saying that the idea to kill off Kurt, which was a committee decision, was bad. Just because there are worse writers out there does not excuse this stuff coming from Yost and Kyle's pens. If anything, Kyle and Yost, being good writers, have even less excuse. I know I can expect great things from them, and when I don't see it, I'm disappointed. But this was not entirely their fault, not being entirely their decision, though I do appreciate that they, quite unlike Fraction, did not shy away from their responsibility in all this.

So Wolverine questions the mission when Domino gets hurt, but not when his best friend dies in what was purported to be the big game-changer of the event? Shows to me some very inconsistent regard for life and for good characterization. I will not pick up the book either, as buying a story arc I dislike would be a dishonest statement of support as well as a waste of my money.

I also think "No more mutants" was a horrific idea, as it backed writers as well as the mutant population into a corner. I did not like the thorough character rape of Wanda that led up to Decimation. I mean, Hello! It's the 21st century, and women who marry knowing they won't be able to get pregnant don't go homicidally crazy when they don't get pregnant.

So if it was necessary for her to go completely off her rocker for the purpose of the story, have her do it for a plausible reason, or, gee, change the story. Creators have the power to do that, after all.

As for other events that could afford to be "Bobby Ewing-ed" out of ever happening just by Wanda waking up from a bad fever dream brought on by strep throat, Spider-man would be a hero once again. Heroes, among other things, don't make deals with the devil.

I realize that you have a higher tolerance for what you consider merely questionable behavior from heroes than I do. But to me, forming hit squads and withholding potentially life-saving information, letting someone die at your feet while doing nothing to help, torturing, imprisoning, or executing people without due process, making any deal with the devil- these aren't just the morally questionable acts of a hero who happens to not be a boy scout. To me, people who do that are villains.

[Edited on 24/6/2010 by Angelique]

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:03 am

So Wolverine questions the mission when Domino gets hurt, but not when his best friend dies in what was purported to be the big game-changer of the event? Shows to me some very inconsitent regard for life.

I think the point here is that Domino being hurt COMBINED with the death of Kurt is making him realize the error in decision to be a team of ruthless killers. You are taking it way too personally.

And just because creators have the power to change a story, doesn't mean they should.

With great power comes great responsibility.

They make/break stories that thousands upon thousands of people read each month. What would be the point of pulling a Superboy Prime (A.K.A. "Retcon Punch") and retconning an entire company wide decision made to tighten stories and focus on mutant characters, other than to give an excuse to bring back some characters? None. There would be no point. You claim it backs writers into a wall, I say, and so do the very writers, that it gave them ultimate freedom to explore a limited crew of 200 or so rather than a cluttered school of pubescent, mutant, scamps and an over populated planet of Supers with no character development like the ones that have been around for, oh, say 40 years or so?

You are also overlooking the less fortunate (than "Decimation") storyplot which was the "Disassembled" where Wanda had the Avengers killing each other off out of her fury. It was these events that led the X-Men and Avengers to have a sit down, UN type style meeting to decide what to do with a destiny changing mutant who was going screwy. It was also poorly planned out and like Clone Saga got too big for its own good.

Is having a hysterical (purposely used that word, due to its origins) female character with baby/daddy issues a bit of a predictable plot point? Sure. But what happened after, no one saw coming, and most people enjoyed.

If the only case you have for Decimation having never happened is "Kurt shouldn't have died" and "Marvel can't write good mutant heroes anymore" than I really am forced to believe you haven't even read a single X-Man comic (save the one where Kurt died) in about 3-5 years.

Events such as "Civil War" "Secret Invasion" and soon to be released "Shadowland" are all actively upping the ante in the Marvel U. "Second Coming" 's first death is cheap in the sense anyone else could have gone out that way and it would've been equally effective. However; I seriously believe that using that single death as a way to dismiss all of Marvel's previous (yet recent) as well as soon-to-be made decisions, especially the use of "Decimation" as a way to shrink growing super population, is flat out wrong. I would rather have had a team of a few great, fleshed out characters than a spattering of irrelevant, relatively pointless-in-a-fight-but-otherwise-unique mutants running around and wailing about their daddy issues. The only prevalent characters to remain from that era, that I find useful or relevant, are the Cuckoos.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Who said I was using that single death to dismiss everything Marvel's done post-decimation? Bear in mind, my interest in the X-Titles had been waning since then. Nightcrawler's death was merely the final nail in the coffin.

I didn't think a growing mutant population was a problem, not if it was handled the way Claremont did, which was to hint that anyone could be a mutant. A couple of kids running for their lives from the Purifiers. Some guy just walking down the street. The mistake was in making too many such people the subjects of the X-books and making the books too soap opera.

I never came out in favor of superhero comics as soap opera, but I am more vehemently opposed to turning superheroes into villains while still marketing them as heroes.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:07 pm

I never came out in favor of superhero comics as soap opera, but I am more vehemently opposed to turning superheroes into villains while still marketing them as heroes.

hence great events like "Heroic Age" which is meant to end this "Civil War" crap and make heroes heroes again and not have them fighting eachother. Villains will be villains again and there will be no more corporate/political villain types (or less of them) who are superimposing their policies on a heroic world.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:23 pm

Heroes will be heroes again? So are Cyclops and Emma going off to jail, or will the "heroes" let them off the hook?

Nope. I fear that the heroic age may very well be another example of Marvel not knowing what heroic behavior entails and pushing non-heroes as heroes.

[Edited on 24/6/2010 by Angelique]

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:34 pm

I'd rather they be acting like they are now than as they were before Decimation. Scott has way more layers as a character (like Ogres and onions) and though I think his decision is wrong, it's nice to see Marvel challenged my views of what makes a hero with Cyke's decision. I now know where my views of what makes/breaks a hero stands, and I think that it proves Kurt died ten times the hero Cyclops will ever live to be for making that horrible team (and not even participating in it).

As for Decimation, I think it's safe to say most fans are relieved it happened. Most X-readers were actually demanding it when it hapened.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:01 pm

I don't believe that most readers demanded Decimation. I certainly do not believe most readers demanded a lot of what came afterward- ie Civil War, Captain America's death, "Reborn," Spider-man dealing with the devil, and a whole mess that began when a baby was born and the X-Men joined in a fight over who gets to kidnap her.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:13 pm

Well, Decimation did not directly lead to those events. Maybe the "Second Coming" one, but "One More Day" (not "reborn", I don't know what that is) "Civil War", & "Secret Invasion" all are of course somewhat related to "Decimation". Not a one, however; is related enough to say that if you don't enjoy those plots you can blame "Decimation". If anything, you can blame Joe Quesada if you have been unsatisfied with Marvel.

This customer however; has been as disappointed as much as he's been satisfied, and credits decimation for most of the satisfaction.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:03 pm

We'll agree to disagree regarding Decimation, but I haven't overlooked a single thing, which is why I'd actually love to see Avengers Disassembled Bobby Ewing-ed out.

"Reborn" I believe pertains to Steve Rogers' recovering from his own allergic reaction to bullets.

Here's the only problem with retconning all of this out- in order for me to be satisfied, it will have to be the final time Marvel does something like this. Quesada didn't like Spider-man's marriage, so he un-did it. Captain America's death was undone. Cypher's death was un-done. "No more mutants" is being undone. I fear that Marvel believes they can kill off whatever characters they want or publish whatever idea, no matter how foolish, because they think they can always correct it later.

An editor's job is to correct stuff before it's published, not afterward.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:09 am

"No more mutants" is not being undone, per say. It's going back to what it was pre 2000 when mutants started popping up faster than dandelions.

And it wasn't that Quesada didn't like Spider-Man's marriage, I've come to believe that no one really liked Married Peter, hence why the books didn't sell, and they needed to change it. they just chose the WORST POSSIBLE way to do it.

And I agree, they do get full of themselves, Quesada is understandably OUT OF CONTROL and his comments to DC, his reactions to fans upon criticism, and some of his recent calls in story plots have all certainly shown that people like Bendis or Brevoort or other greats deserve that chair more than he.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:52 am

I think anyone with real copy editing and/or art direction experience would be more qualified. But I don't know if Bendis or Brevoort have those qualifications, as Marvel seems to regard the title of editor as a reward for lengthy service, not a job with a specific description- namely to sift through everything, sift out errors, and (the height of editorial involvement in the creative process) suggest ways to improve.

And I guess I, like most readers who saw Spider-man get married in Stan Lee's newspaper strip and absolutely loved it, am a big nobody. And so, I suppose, is Stan the Man himself.

The truth is that lots of people liked Spider-man's marriage, and anyone who believes nobody likes it is only buying the advertizing. Remember how "everybody loves" SC?

defconfour · Post by **defconfour** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:59 am

Moderator: Please refrain from personally attacking other users and remain civil during discussions at all times. Thank you.

[Edited on 25-6-10 by Starfish]

Svartfreja · Post by **Svartfreja** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:53 pm

I'm going to say, simply, that I don't think the decimation should be scrapped. There have been some great story lines since (in my humble oppinion) and it would be a shame to see all of those erased buy undoing something that happened so long ago.

So maybe they went about it the wrong way but I totally agree that it's nicer to have a small group of well rounded characters than a large group that no one can even remember the names of. Character development is nice. And with fewer characters to develop, the ones that are left get the attention they deserve.

Blob55 · Post by **Blob55** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:52 pm

Can't there just be a Special on what the depowered Mutants are doing now? I want to see what the jobs of some were, since the ones that used to be X-Men will probably be stuck as Wrestelers or in the Army/Navy since I doubt that Xavier wanted to teach the X-Men anything but how to fight and protect themselves and others. Plus I doubt that the Mutant haters want them in an office job or anything.

[Edited on 25/6/10 by Blob55]

[Edited on 25/6/10 by Blob55]

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:01 pm

There has been.
Several.

One of them followed Jono Starsmore or whatever his name is, a.k.a.a chamber

:jono (whatever teh smilie is for him)