Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

The X-Men! Spider-Man, Iron Man, the Hulk, the Fantastic Four, Thor, Captain America, and more!
User avatar
Wahnsinn
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Location: The Land of Sausage

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Here's the problem: Mutants aren't a savable endangered species. They're going to die off, period. It doesn't matter if their enemies kill them faster; they're going extinct until a deus ex machina changes the rules to allow for the passing of the X-gene.

That doesn't create fear. That creates despair and/or apathy. They're going to die, so why should we care? Why should the baseline humans care? They should be relieved, and only extreme bigots would be interested in quickly annihilating what remains of the mutant population.

The creators have written themselves into a corner. The problem wasn't that there were too many mutants. It was that the mutants were concentrated in a few areas, including Genosha and the Xavier Institute, instead of being spread more evenly over the globe.
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Uhm... isn't that the point of Hope?

I'm sure they have planned for this.
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
Slarti
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5846
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 2:25 pm
Title: Damn Not Given
Nightscrawlearth Character: :icey :phoenix

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Slarti »

Pfffft. There it goes comparing comics to reality again. Since Decimation was caused by a reality-bending mutant who "magically" changed the universe, in and of itself a deus ex machina, the field is wide open for ways to "fix" it.
User avatar
Blob55
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:59 am

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

I've noticed that Techno based Villians seem to be stronger than normal Mutants, so why don't the X-Men get some help from some non-mutants that have experience in Techno suits, and help beat up the bad guys?
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Blob, have you been reading Second Coming?

The Avengers have been smashing away at the Giant Sphere.
No good. The bad guys have the upper hand.
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
Wahnsinn
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Location: The Land of Sausage

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

And I repeat: "They're going extinct until a deus ex machina changes the rules to allow for the passing of the X-gene."

While a tool of the medium, I'm of the opinion that the DEM should be used sparingly. There's no drama to be had when the audience knows any major problem will be fixed by some implausible happening. They could have significantly lowered the mutant population and nixed the human-extinction gene without writing themselves into a corner that requires a DEM to exit.
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

And I repeat: "They're going extinct until a deus ex machina changes the rules to allow for the passing of the X-gene."
You repeat yourself but I think it's actually me who you're not understanding.... not the other way around.

I'll repeat myself too, incase:
Uhm... isn't that the point of Hope?

I'm sure they have planned for this.
Hope + Second Coming Event/Decimation aftermath = DEUS ex machina.
Dude, DEM's aren't BAD they're just annoying if they're insulting to the reader (in that there's a better way out [See "Clone Saga"]) or they are constructed frequently in a story.

A DEM for a post-mutant race wipe out? Not been done yet. I'm looking forward to seeing how they resolve this, and I'll be disappointed if it's anything short of "wow. That's surprising. I didn't see them going there with that."
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
Blob55
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:59 am

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Blob, have you been reading Second Coming?

The Avengers have been smashing away at the Giant Sphere.
No good. The bad guys have the upper hand.
What I meant to say was; They should get Beak and the New Warriors to help.
Svartfreja
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1972
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:24 pm
Title: Pushed Beaver
Nightscrawlearth Character: :quicksilver :invisiblewoman :spiderwoman
Location: Cloud 9!! ^_^
Contact:

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Svartfreja »

Blob55 wrote: What I meant to say was; They should get Beak and the New Warriors to help.
Which goes beack to whether or not you've been reading the series. All communication with people outside of the sphere has been completely cut off. They can't contact outside help and they can't teleport out either because all the teleporters are dead (or in limbo but lets not split hairs).

I'm really looking forward to seeing what marvel pulls out of their magic hat to fix this one.

Incidentally there is another Wanda-style character out there that people will know about if they keep up with Ms Marvel. Called the Storyteller - they tried to remake Wanda (by 'they' I mean AIM) so there's another thing lurking in there somewhere. It's fun! :cracked
:quicksilver Pietro Maximoff [Quicksilver]

Quicksilver: Howisshe?Isshealright?Imusetspeakwithmysisteratonce.
Hawkeye: What is that noise?
IronMan: That is the noise Pietro makes right before he's tossed out of the airlock. ~ Avengers: The Children's Crusade #6
User avatar
kladyelf
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:46 am
Location: Australia

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by kladyelf »

I know how we can retcon the Decimation event:

1) Get Jaime Madrox

2) put him in a large vat of custard

3) adorn said custardy mutant with the cosmic cube and the ring made from a bit of the CC

4) add Cyclops

5) one *Fzark!* later and you have a multiple-cosmic-mcguffin generator powered by CUSTARD! Mu-Hahahahahaaaaaa!!! *thunder crackles*

*wheeze*

(ruddy asthma)
meddle not in the affairs of ficcers for you are malleable and easily .... O_o *stares* ooh is that a cookie?

Love your enemies - It will drive them nuts!

Crazy.... but in the nicest possible way....

To Stupidityyyyy - and beyond!

*after reading the latest gory/depressing "mainstream" comic* ....*sigh* that's it, I'm packin' up and moving back to the Eighties...
User avatar
Wahnsinn
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Location: The Land of Sausage

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Hope + Second Coming Event/Decimation aftermath = DEUS ex machina.
Dude, DEM's aren't BAD they're just annoying if they're insulting to the reader (in that there's a better way out [See "Clone Saga"]) or they are constructed frequently in a story.

A DEM for a post-mutant race wipe out? Not been done yet. I'm looking forward to seeing how they resolve this, and I'll be disappointed if it's anything short of "wow. That's surprising. I didn't see them going there with that."
I mentioned Hope in my first post.

What I'm trying to get across is that the need for the DEM in this storyline was made glaringly obvious from the beginning. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that as a good idea from a storytelling perspective. And how is that not an insult to the readers? It doesn't take any creativity to come up with a DEM. They only need to decide how long they plan to drag out the situation.

I think there would have been far more dramatic tension if mutants had been dropped to an extremely vulnerable number while making changing the odds of mutant births among different pairings to something like the following:
  • Baseline-Baseline = 0%
  • Mutant-Baseline = 4%
  • Mutant-Mutant = 10%
Combine that with their enemies trying to kill off what remains of the mutants to ensure their extinction, and you've got a race of people with a chance at a natural comeback who'll have to fight like hell to stay alive long enough to make it.

kladyelf wrote:I know how we can retcon the Decimation event:

1) Get Jaime Madrox

2) put him in a large vat of custard

3) adorn said custardy mutant with the cosmic cube and the ring made from a bit of the CC

4) add Cyclops

5) one *Fzark!* later and you have a multiple-cosmic-mcguffin generator powered by CUSTARD! Mu-Hahahahahaaaaaa!!! *thunder crackles*

*wheeze*

(ruddy asthma)
Can I have some of whatever you're on? :LOL
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

What I'm trying to get across is that the need for the DEM in this storyline was made glaringly obvious from the beginning. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that as a good idea from a storytelling perspective. And how is that not an insult to the readers? It doesn't take any creativity to come up with a DEM. They only need to decide how long they plan to drag out the situation.

I think there would have been far more dramatic tension if mutants had been dropped to an extremely vulnerable number while making changing the odds of mutant births among different pairings to something like the following:
Baseline-Baseline = 0%
Mutant-Baseline = 4%
Mutant-Mutant = 10%

Combine that with their enemies trying to kill off what remains of the mutants to ensure their extinction, and you've got a race of people with a chance at a natural comeback who'll have to fight like hell to stay alive long enough to make it.
Takin' this shit way too literally man.
It's a comic book. Maybe they're purposely throwing you off? Maybe they want you to think Hope is the DEM? But she's not, and she's just a catalyst for something even bigger??

Also; Jamie's de-powered as well--I believe?
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
Blob55
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:59 am

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

In comic books you're supposed to take things seriously, especially if it's characters that you've grown up with, and have lasted decades; only to be almost extinct in a few years short years.

The number of mutants has been increasing before the decimation, but now it's shinking down to an even lower and lower number.
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

The number of mutants has been increasing before the decimation, but now it's shinking down to an even lower and lower number.
Hence the rising suspense/action.

You're supposed to feel overwhelmed, you're supposed to feel exasperated, and you're supposed to feel like all hope's lost.

Well...
not all Hope.

Image

[Edited on 30/6/10 by Ult_Sm86]
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
Wahnsinn
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Location: The Land of Sausage

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Takin' this shit way too literally man.
It's a comic book. Maybe they're purposely throwing you off? Maybe they want you to think Hope is the DEM? But she's not, and she's just a catalyst for something even bigger??

Also; Jamie's de-powered as well--I believe?
Even if Hope isn't the DEM, she's a McGuffin being used to signify the coming of the inevitable DEM needed to fix that impossible situation. They wrote themselves into a corner from the very beginning by ruling out a natural comeback fraught with peril but allowing for a glimmer of hope. A DEM is boring when seen coming from a mile away. :P

Madrox still has his powers.
Angelique
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:27 am
Location: sailing under the Jolly Wagner

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Angelique »

Multiple Man still has his powers post-Decimation. Remember the baby he had with Syrin that just turned out to be an infant dupe he quickly reabsorbed? No? Can't blame you. How about, much better yet, when he sent two dupes into the future? Kind of needed his powers for that....

As for all the teleporters being dead or whatnot, again, where was Lila Cheney?
Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6 ... &ref=share

www.heroesfallenstudiosinc.webs.com

http://hubpages.com/hub/characterdriven
Svartfreja
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler
Posts: 1972
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:24 pm
Title: Pushed Beaver
Nightscrawlearth Character: :quicksilver :invisiblewoman :spiderwoman
Location: Cloud 9!! ^_^
Contact:

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Svartfreja »

Angelique wrote:As for all the teleporters being dead or whatnot, again, where was Lila Cheney?
How the heck should I know? Ask Cyke - he seems to think they're trapped because of a lack of teleporters. I'm going by what's been said in the series already. I've got every issue that the Second Coming plot is involved with.

But correct me if I'm wrong, aren't we kind of off the point here?

The Decimation happened. It's not likely to unhappen. I'm sure Marvel have a plan to 'fix' it. Just let them get on with it.

EDIT: Because her power, once activated, will already have carried her hundreds of thousands of miles away before she can even complete the thought of "stop", Lila can't teleport across shorter distances. <- Taken from the marvel bio for her. Not that great for teleporting around Earth... it's not that big.

[Edited on 1/7/10 by Svartfreja]
:quicksilver Pietro Maximoff [Quicksilver]

Quicksilver: Howisshe?Isshealright?Imusetspeakwithmysisteratonce.
Hawkeye: What is that noise?
IronMan: That is the noise Pietro makes right before he's tossed out of the airlock. ~ Avengers: The Children's Crusade #6
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Multiple Man still has his powers post-Decimation. Remember the baby he had with Syrin that just turned out to be an infant dupe he quickly reabsorbed? No? Can't blame you. How about, much better yet, when he sent two dupes into the future? Kind of needed his powers for that....

As for all the teleporters being dead or whatnot, again, where was Lila Cheney?
Sorry, I've only been reading X-Men Regularly again since right before "Second Coming" event. And Multiple Man has never been one of my favorites....

Or even worth following to me. I think the coolest versions of him I've seen are the movie version and the in-game version.

As Freja said, they didn't write themselves into a corner, I'm sure they have it figured out. Planned out. Constructed.
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
Wahnsinn
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Location: The Land of Sausage

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

The only plan with HoM and Decimation was "putting the genie back in the bottle" for Joe Q. He thought there were too many mutants, so whittling down the population to an unsustainable number that would die out in a generation if the remaining long-lived mutants got killed was the solution. It was a rather inane solution, if you ask me.

It functionally rendered Xavier's Dream of coexistence moot because the baseline humans no longer needed to worry about the long-term existence of mutants. Fear? Feh. Just wait for them to die. Hate? Yippee. They can be annihilated more easily.

It left the readers awaiting the inevitable deus ex machina because we know Marvel wouldn't dare let the X-line die. Since the full effects of Wanda's decree were made clear, it was obvious that a DEM would come eventually. It was all a matter of what/who and when.

Color me unimpressed with that kind of storytelling. :P
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I'm not impressed per say, but I'm intrigued at the twists and turns it has taken. And I really want to see what rabbit they pull out of their hats, being they'd be stupid to do something predictable. Which,... ou seem bent on assuming they are going to.
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
kladyelf
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:46 am
Location: Australia

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by kladyelf »

Wahnsinn : Can I have some of whatever you're on?
I'm on a diet, you don't want that :D

mind you, to achieve a case of affable lunacy eat a packet of something sugary, watch Monty Python until 4am, and then just type whatever comes into your head, :cracked
meddle not in the affairs of ficcers for you are malleable and easily .... O_o *stares* ooh is that a cookie?

Love your enemies - It will drive them nuts!

Crazy.... but in the nicest possible way....

To Stupidityyyyy - and beyond!

*after reading the latest gory/depressing "mainstream" comic* ....*sigh* that's it, I'm packin' up and moving back to the Eighties...
User avatar
Wahnsinn
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 1:58 pm
Location: The Land of Sausage

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I'm not impressed per say, but I'm intrigued at the twists and turns it has taken. And I really want to see what rabbit they pull out of their hats, being they'd be stupid to do something predictable. Which,... ou seem bent on assuming they are going to.
The DEM is what's predictable. What it is doesn't matter because I could see it coming from a mile away. It would have made for better reading, for me, if the DEM were the last resort instead of the only option. I would be surprised if they made it to the end without using a DEM.

kladyelf wrote:I'm on a diet, you don't want that :D

mind you, to achieve a case of affable lunacy eat a packet of something sugary, watch Monty Python until 4am, and then just type whatever comes into your head, :cracked
That explains it! You've gone wonky in the head from lack of nutrition. ;)
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

How upset will you be then, if they don't use a D.E.M.?
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
User avatar
Blob55
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:59 am

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

Anyone know why Jubalee seems to be the only X-Mutant to hate being a normal human, yet the other Millions don't mind?
Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
Dread Pirate
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2
Location: Boogie Wonderland

Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Who said they don't mind?

I'd think getting High-Tech super suits or genuinely being active still in the "supers-world" is pretty evident they want to use their experiences to better the world.

I think that makes them equally heroic, maybe Beak can take a lesson. He never really did anything exceptional, maybe as a powerless person he can share his past transgressions as an X-....Student, with the rest of the world.
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
Post Reply