X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

Wahnsinn · Post by **Wahnsinn** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:00 pm

Angelique wrote:Well, according to Christian teaching, to fit the Messiah bill, you actually have to do something like sacrifice your life for others and then resurrect.

Erm, I'm not trying to start a fight here, but let's give credit where credit's due. The messiah business is Jewish. There's been more than one moshiach (anointed one), but the last one's special. The last heir to the Davidic throne has to fulfill a number of requirements in his lifetime, none of which include resurrection.

I like prophecies. They're fun.

(EDIT: Is that smiley a tad broken, or is it just me?)

Back to Kurt! Maybe the one that died was an impostor? Hey, there was that whole Skrull invasion mess, and Kurt was seen talking to that orb thing. Yeah, it was a Skrull, and the T-O virus in the arm prevented him from returning to form! Or something.

[Edited on 14/5/10 by Wahnsinn]

neling4 · Post by **neling4** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:23 pm

Wahnsinn wrote:
Angelique wrote:Well, according to Christian teaching, to fit the Messiah bill, you actually have to do something like sacrifice your life for others and then resurrect.
Erm, I'm not trying to start a fight here, but let's give credit where credit's due. The messiah business is Jewish. There's been more than one moshiach (anointed one), but the last one's special. The last heir to the Davidic throne has to fulfill a number of requirements in his lifetime, none of which include resurrection.

I like prophecies. They're fun. (EDIT: Is that smiley a tad broken, or is it just me?)

Is Hope Jewish?

Maybe it will be Scott. He is so full of........faith.

Since when has Marvel ever cared if they got it right? I suspect they did little or no research on this subject. As far as they are concerned, anything goes if it sells books. They don't have a very high opinion of their readers, that is obvious.

[Edited on 14/5/10 by neling4]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:09 pm

I'm not trying to take credit away from Jewish teaching, but it's all in the title of this arc. Second Coming alludes to Christian teachings of the Messiah.

Dedicatedfollower467 · Fri May 14, 2010 11:11 pm

I agree, while the concept of a Messiah goes all the way back to Genesis 3, and therefore the Jewish community, the idea behind this book is rather "Christian"-ish in nature.

That being said, the unwitting savior of the world is a popular literature archtype and has been used countless times by millions of storytellers. I doubt that the Marvel people really wanted to do more than barely reference Judeo-Christian teachings.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:31 am

This is WILDLY

Look, it seems Logan is most upset about all of this. Is there a chance he and Rogue are going to just... massacre the remainder of this dude's army?

And if X-Force is still around... how the HELL does Scott Justify that? How? That's... unacceptable. And who will actually be ON IT now? I see Rogue stepping up to that, after what she saw happened to Kurt.

[Edited on 15/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]

kladyelf · Post by **kladyelf** » Sat May 15, 2010 8:40 am

I don't think Scott had a justifiable reason for X-force from day one really, if he did, he wouldn't have kept the team's presence such a secret from the other X-men.

Its funny, but whenever I think of X-force I remember the phrase (often quoted by cyclops, there's irony) that "X-Men don't kill" which was something Nightcrawler held to as well.

The morality of a hero was that they didn't kill and X-men were heroes (even the anti-heroes were heroes)

Over the years it sort of changed into "X-men don't kill, well we do actually, but only if there's no alternative." To "X-men don't ki - whoops! hey look at that distracting thing over there! Logan I'll pay ya five bucks to hide the stiff," to "X-men don't ki - ah, stuff it, we'll just lump all our most homicidal/feral members together and sic 'em onto anyone we don't like - you too Rhane, work off some of that repressed anger willya?"

...

*reads what she's just typed*

I think that got a little out of hand there

[Edited on 15-5-2010 by kladyelf]

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:06 pm

Well... to be fair I thought it made sense. I mean, I don't agree with the decision and the writers got the different reactions out of marvel fans that they were looking for. But one of those reactions was "on-the-fence" which was me.

I was convinced that they were down to drastic alternatives being they were fighting for their race, fighting against genocide.... but.... still, as many issues proved...

It wasn't always a must-kill situation, so why have a must-kill group?

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:14 pm

Quite frankly, I felt that Cyclops forming a hit squad indicated that his career as an X-Man, let alone in any leadership position within the X-Men, should end and very soon.

As if gathering the bulk of the mutant population in one place when doing so before proved disastrous every single time before was proof that there really wasn't much to Cyke's vaunted leadership ability.

Cyke: I know! We'll all be able to protect each other if we gather all the mutants onto our little floating island!

Anyone with any sense: How? It didn't work in Genosha, it didn't work on Asteroid M- on which we're standing now, and it didn't work when you turned Xavier Manor into a refugee camp. What makes you think that'll work now?

Cyke: It'll work now because of my great leadership! Don't question my orders!

Psylocke: As you wish.

Post by **Slarti** » Sat May 15, 2010 5:29 pm

Dedicatedfollower467 wrote: That being said, the unwitting savior of the world is a popular literature archtype and has been used countless times by millions of storytellers. I doubt that the Marvel people really wanted to do more than barely reference Judeo-Christian teachings.

+1

Well said.

Jeremus · Post by **Jeremus** » Sat May 15, 2010 5:41 pm

Wahnsinn wrote:
Back to Kurt! Maybe the one that died was an impostor? Hey, there was that whole Skrull invasion mess, and Kurt was seen talking to that orb thing. Yeah, it was a Skrull, and the T-O virus in the arm prevented him from returning to form! Or something.

They were discussing something like this on CBR (I have to find a link that works)

If that's the case, it would be good in that our Kurt would really be alive.
But then it would have been a Skrull that made the ultimate sacrifice instead of Kurt. Would a Skrull have done that?

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Sat May 15, 2010 7:01 pm

A Skrull might have done that if for some odd reason he really thought he was Kurt.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sat May 15, 2010 7:15 pm

It's called good writing, let's have some!

Wahnsinn · Post by **Wahnsinn** » Sun May 16, 2010 5:18 pm

neling4 wrote:Is Hope Jewish?

Maybe it will be Scott. He is so full of........faith.

Since when has Marvel ever cared if they got it right? I suspect they did little or no research on this subject. As far as they are concerned, anything goes if it sells books. They don't have a very high opinion of their readers, that is obvious.[Edited on 14/5/10 by neling4]

Hope's religion is unknown, as far as I know.

I agree that Marvel's going for the archetypal messiah figure of literature, but Magneto made a statement that could be construed as, at least, the writer having some knowledge of Jewish messianic prophecy. Maybe it was completely unintentional, but it was a nice character touch if it wasn't.

Angelique wrote:A Skrull might have done that if for some odd reason he really thought he was Kurt.

Hasn't a Skrull gone that delusional before? It could happen. It doesn't address Bastion's new arm, though. That seems the most obvious course, if it's not simply a red herring. I'm desperate, though, and will take just about anything that returns Nightcrawler not broken.

Random Note - Bobby's father was Catholic. Given that, it makes a little more sense that he would be tapped to handle the rites because he probably has some familiarity with them. Other Catholics (of varying degrees) on Utopia during the funeral include Northstar, Karma, Sunspot, Gambit, Domino, and Rockslide.

[Edited on 17/5/10 by Wahnsinn]

Jeremus · Post by **Jeremus** » Tue May 18, 2010 5:38 pm

neling4 wrote:I'm sure there is more than one Catholic mutant.....

What you have here is a lack of Presbyterians.:mad

And where is my token Amish mutant?

There was a Catholic priest named Alexi Garnoff aka "Blind Faith" that lived in Russia but lost his powers after M-Day. I don't know if he's anywhere near Utopia.

But Rahne

is Presbyterian and so is Speedball from the New Warriors.

But, alas, there are no Amish superheroes......not even a Mennonite one. I think there must be a conspiracy.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Tue May 18, 2010 5:41 pm

You guys,

...... I'm so excited for tomorrow. Where is this plot going? I'm not going to read it anymore, but I'm excited to know how this gets them all back to San Francisco? Where's Chuckles in all this? What's going down with the Avengers now? What's up with Spider-Man's secret about how everyone forgot he became Peter Parker finally being revealed (like for real?)

And what's this about Gorilla Man getting his own comic? Fuck. Yes. I'm excited.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Tue May 18, 2010 5:44 pm

Jeremus wrote:
neling4 wrote:I'm sure there is more than one Catholic mutant.....

What you have here is a lack of Presbyterians.:mad

And where is my token Amish mutant?

There was a Catholic priest named Alexi Garnoff aka "Blind Faith" that lived in Russia but lost his powers after M-Day. I don't know if he's anywhere near Utopia.

But Rahne is Presbyterian and so is Speedball from the New Warriors.

But, alas, there are no Amish superheroes......not even a Mennonite one. I think there must be a conspiracy.

Sure Fr. Garnoff wasn't Russian Orthodox?

Jeremus · Post by **Jeremus** » Tue May 18, 2010 8:09 pm

Everywhere I look, he's described as a Catholic priest. You'd think he'd be Russian Orthodox, but even the website "Religious Affilitations of Comic Book Characters" has him listed as Catholic....and they have a grouping for Orthodox characters. In the only picture I've seen of him, he's got a white collar. (I don't know if Orthodox priests wear white collars?)

He could be another victim of lazy writers not doing their research.....

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]

Dedicatedfollower467 · Tue May 18, 2010 9:00 pm

Jeremus wrote:
He could be another victim of lazy writers not doing their research.....

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]

Aren't they all?

It seems to me EVERY comic book character goes through an awful period where their lives/morals/values are not well-researched and end up getting ruined.

It almost makes me want to just give up, you know?

neling4 · Post by **neling4** » Tue May 18, 2010 9:15 pm

Sister Salvation is Catholic. She is a mutant nun with healing powers.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Wed May 19, 2010 1:41 am

Great. And where pray tell was she in all this?

neling4 · Post by **neling4** » Wed May 19, 2010 3:18 am

Angelique wrote:Great. And where pray tell was she in all this?

Madripoor, I think.

Wahnsinn · Post by **Wahnsinn** » Wed May 19, 2010 7:11 am

Has she appeared with her powers after House of M? Even if she's alive, it's likely she's now powerless.

Marvel needs to stop running simultaneous events because it's getting hard to tell when what happens. It seems Siege must have been before Second Coming since Scott, Emma, and Rogue appear at the Sentry's memorial. I really can't imagine them taking a break from their own crisis to go pay their respects. Where does Necrosha fit in? There certainly didn't seem to be much of a break between it and SC, especially with everyone hanging around to watch Magneto do that trick with the bullet. And how is it that these ginormous events--Selene rezzing piles of dead folk, the Hulks doing whatever it is they're doing, and a freaking war on Asgard--seem to always go unnoticed by some element of the superhero community? Seriously, somebody should comment even if they can't get involved. Or was there mention in the couple issues between Necrosha and SC? I can't even remember anymore. Ugh. I think I'm suffering from event fatigue.

neling4 · Post by **neling4** » Wed May 19, 2010 1:35 pm

Everyone on CBR kept saying that Elixir was depowered and not on Scottopia, and that is why Cyclops didn't call on him to help Kurt, and now I find that he is on Scottopia and re-powered, according to this:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sh ... p?t=322452

See? There he is at the lunch table on the right, looking nice and healthy and golden.

This crossover just gets worse and worse.

[Edited on 19/5/10 by neling4]

Wahnsinn · Post by **Wahnsinn** » Wed May 19, 2010 3:48 pm

It could be some other golden child?

Eh, blame the editors for not doing their jobs. In one chapter, Colossus is shown as arriving on the plane with Wolverine and company to discover Kurt's demise near a cliff at the edge of the island. In the next chapter, he's showing a DVD to Kitty when the plane arrives with Wolvie and company to discover Kurt's demise on tile.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:35 pm

I don't know if anyone is still reading... but remember how we said it's a shame no one else in the Marvel U was involving themselves with this?

........ Well... Go read X-Men Legacy.