X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

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X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

A guy who uses the online handle Roach summarizes my disappointment in the situation:
"One of the most unique and awesome Mutants gets killed off and there are two wolverine clones that get a free pass...there is no justice"

What's this I saw on CBR about a possible Kitty title? Could that be a way to bring back/revisit Kurt?
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Wahnsinn wrote: And, seriously, killing one of the most heroic X-Men before the beginning of the Heroic Age?
What's this Heroic Age business?
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Post by neling4 »

The Drastic Spastic wrote:
Wahnsinn wrote: And, seriously, killing one of the most heroic X-Men before the beginning of the Heroic Age?
What's this Heroic Age business?
It's some new theme at Marvel, which they think will interest us:

http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.109 ... heroic_age
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Let me just say this... I've thought it over. A lot. Like a lot a lot.


And I'm starting to be "okay" with this death.

Do I think it was cheap that they killed him rather than write a good Nightcrawler story? Yes.
Do I think it's a lack of creativity on Marvel's part to try and find another way to do something with him? Yes.
Do I think they're trying to do damage control with the demonology introduced by Chuck, and the strong undertones of Catholicism that, though religious fans disagree, force a lot of pure, simple, "X-FANS" to snub their nose at Kurt Wagner? Yes very much so.

Do I think this was a money grubbing decision combined with all of those and it is easier for them to kill him and get people to talk about it online, thus increase profits, and then create even more talk and rising profits when they bring him back later, clean and free of any religous undertones???


Absolutely.


But I do also think that it was a great death of an X-Man, a meaningful attempt at preservation of a race. However; it's a terrible "Kurt death". Instead of treating him right all this time, they give him one last heroic gesture (saving Hope, which I don't care how angry you are he's dead, that is totally something he would give his life for.) One that could have probably been avoided had he thought it through.

--if you stick any other character in that position, (where Bastion's hand rips through Kurt's chest), be it Warren, Nathan, Emma, Scott, or Bobby, --if you put any of them in there, you will get the same result.

The result being: Shock Death + Angry Core Characters = $$$ for Marvel. That's what this was. It wasn't a "Kurt-Death". It was an X-Death. If that makes any sense.

That said, I know the only interesting thing that will come out of this is Logan's reaction. There is no way he is not looking for bloodsport after this, even if Scott decides to end X-Force.





As for Heroic Age, do I think it's a bad decision to put Blade and Spidey in or around the X-Team? Yes.
Do I think Heroic Age is a cheap way to get our attention after all of this? Yes.

But the idea behind it is great. All the villains are villains again, not sneaky politicians dressed up as something else, like "heroes". All the heroes are on the same side again, and there will be a major converging of books, condensing the multiple titles under one series, which is desperately needed in the Marvel U, and could result in some interesting changes for the various teams/heroes.

However; with no Kurt? I will not be reading X-Book. And with Spider-Man in San Francisco, and Brand New Day still not retconned, I will not be reading Spider-Man. So it's safe to say, though the idea and concept of "Heroic Age" is great, it is not for me. It has come too late and I will stick to my Ultimate Series.

[Edited on 5/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

Post by neling4 »

I agree that Wolvie's reaction will be interesting. It is the only thing I am looking forward to reading right now. As soon as he forgets his best bud, I'm done too.

As I said before....somewhere, my pull list is getting smaller and smaller.

[Edited on 5/5/10 by neling4]
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Post by Dedicatedfollower467 »

Yeah, I'm hoping to see Logan's reaction as well. And while I know it'd be a little OOC for him, I'd actually prefer a thoughtful, grieved, but intelligent reaction, as opposed to OMGRAGEBLOODLUUUUUUUUUUUST!!!!!!

Cuz I'm tired of Logan poppin' his claws every time something happens. Like, the instant he saw Kurt was dead, out come the claws. WHY??? Is it something symbolic and I'm just not seeing it? Or is his immediate reaction to everything sad is to act like he's being attacked? I just don't get it, and I'd prefer something a little more legitimate than "IMA GONNA KILL ME SOME BAD-GUY ASS!!!!! GRRRRRAAAAAAAARRRRR...."
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Post by Angelique »

If Wolverine was all "OMGRAGEBLOODLUST!!!" I don't think Cyclops would have survived that ish.
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Post by Angelique »

Elfdame, I second what Gary said. One of the things that bothered me was that I know Yost can do better. He's not by any stretch a one trick pony as a writer, and I've seen him write happy stories of good triumphing over evil, stories that my kids and I can enjoy together, and even some very good comedy.

But I suppose all that is just kid stuff, and I missed the memo that adults have to like death and misery.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

He handled it a lot better than the majority of Nightcrawler-related plot points have gone down over the last decade or two. It was decided he had to go, and I think they (Yost and Kyle) did an excellent job with that requirement.
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Post by Wahnsinn »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:All the heroes are on the same side again, and there will be a major converging of books, condensing the multiple titles under one series, which is desperately needed in the Marvel U, and could result in some interesting changes for the various teams/heroes.
Condensing the multiple titles? Not so much. For the X-titles, every ongoing already around will continue, unless you don't count X-Force becoming New X-Force as a continuation, and there will be X-Men to add to the core titles. Yes, X-Men: Legacy will continue, and there will be yet another X-Men #1. I'm not sure what the ongoing miniseries, Astonishing X-Men and Astonishing Spider-Man/Wolverine, are supposed to be continuity-wise.
If I've got this straight, the 616 X-line will consist of no less than the following ongoing in-continuity titles by the end of the year: X-Men, X-Men: Legacy, Uncanny X-Men, New X-Force, X-Factor, New Mutants, Wolverine, Daken: Dark Wolverine, X-23, and Deadpool.
I seem to recall a time when the X-titles were cut down in number because the line was seen as bloated. If it was bloated then, what is it now? Morbidly obese? :rolleyes

Back to the subject of our beloved blue elf, his Wikipedia entry (of all things) called my attention to something I'd missed when I first read X-Force #26. When Bastion reboots to regenerate himself, his arm grows back with a hand like Kurt's. Maybe it's merely a red herring, but is it possible that a little bit of Kurt was left behind in Bastion when they fused? Could it be he'll have a hand--no pun intended--in taking down Bastion from the inside? Of course, this leaves an opening for the opposite scenario to happen because of the T-O virus in Bastion, which is what he used to rezz his minions.


We could end up with Nightcrawler's reanimated virus-infected body fighting against Bastion's Kurt-infected body. Kurt could be made the ultimate hero by conquering Bastion from the inside to regain control over his own body. Since Hope has to be of some use, she could be the one to destroy Bastion while preserving Kurt's mind to move him back into his own body and rid it of the T-O virus. Ta-da! Hope and Kurt save everybody and live to tell the tale. :clap

A girl can hope (ha!), right? :D

[Edited on 5/5/10 by Wahnsinn]
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Post by Diablo »

Wahnsinn wrote:
We could end up with Nightcrawler's reanimated virus-infected body fighting against Bastion's Kurt-infected body. Kurt could be made the ultimate hero by conquering Bastion from the inside to regain control over his own body. Since Hope has to be of some use, she could be the one to destroy Bastion while preserving Kurt's mind to move him back into his own body and rid it of the T-O virus. Ta-da! Hope and Kurt save everybody and live to tell the tale. :clap

A girl can hope (ha!), right? :D
Love your optimism. :)

And Drastic, I don't like how Yost handled his death.
I would have liked to see Kurt go out with a bang (or a big BAMF !) : defeating Bastion, not only slowing him down.

Also, his (heroic) death should be the end of the story-arc. Its paroxysm.
Not the midlle of the show. Not something you throw out to regain the readers's interest.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Also, his (heroic) death should be the end of the story-arc. Its paroxysm.
Not the midlle of the show. Not something you throw out to regain the readers's interest.
I wouldn't even say it was the middle. We have seven more left in this event. More like the beginning.
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Post by Angelique »

Wahnsinn, where were you around a year ago when they had that X-summit? If they were so mired in groupthink that they honestly believed killing Kurt was a good idea (as if toying with the fans before delivering the coup de grace was ever anything other than sadistic), you should have pitched that to them. :)
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Post by Angelique »

Review and spoilers are up for Uncanny 524.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sh ... p?t=320570
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Post by Wahnsinn »

Angelique, I was traipsing about on the interwebs with the naive hope that Marvel would come to their senses and do something good with this Messiah Trilogy stuff. If you had told me a year ago that they would kill Kurt, I never would have believed it. Of course, there's still the chance they'll bring him back before the story ends, but I'm not counting on it. I want to be impressed. I want to love this story. I'm not holding my breath, though. :holdbreath

Honestly, my expectations are so dang low regarding the storytelling capacity of the X-Office that I doubt they would come up with something half as dramatic as what I threw together in five minutes. I'm not a writer. Their ideas should be ten times better than anything that pops out of my silly brain.
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Post by Jeremus »

Angelique wrote:Review and spoilers are up for Uncanny 524.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sh ... p?t=320570


Well, at least it sounds like he got Wolverine's eulogy right....and that's all that really matters to me.

The rest of them can all go on a picnic and tiptoe thru the tulips for all I care.
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Post by Elfdame »

Read the summary; made me glad I'm not reading current X-titles.

Saw Ang's post on the board there, and I can't resist saying that he prolly converted and got ordained with the same mail-order priest scheme that Nighty used back in the day. :shifty

Isn't it odd that Wolvie, the one person who seems to be kinda over-saturating the market, actually gets appropriate lines and stuff? That's a nice surprise (not being facetious, for once).

I look fwd to hearing everyone chime in on it after they've read (borrowed, presumably, for them as be quittin' yon Marvel pull orders) it.

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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I will have a hard time making myself buy this issue, but I feel in my Nightcrawler collection... it's sort of important to have.

That said, this will be the final X-Book I purchase.
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Post by Trigger »

I did actually pick this one up. I was going to quit cold turkey... but I really wanted his funeral issue (now I'm really done).

I had mixed emotions. I didn't like the art (it just didn't strike the proper tone), and it was extremely odd that Scott just traipsed off to go talk to Hope while everyone left Kurt's body lying on the ground ("Oh, just throw a sheet over him, we'll clean that up later"). However, I really loved that two page spread where everyone reminisced about Kurt. Aside from Emma and Beast, everything everyone said was really great. And I LOVED Wolverine's reaction; not too tame, but not too "RAWR" either.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Oh I don't agree with the art either, I saw the teaser for it on CBR earlier last week. And Fraction's Loverboy Obsession with Scott is beyond irksome. He has him acting completely unlike he ever has and also seems to be prioritizing completely wrong. Shitty writing, shitty book, I'm done. Bye-Bye Marvel!
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Post by Dedicatedfollower467 »

Having read the spoiler, I suppose I'll have to wait for the actual issue to form my opinion....

But I am SO GLAD that they got Wolverine right. Because that is the way I would have written Logan's reaction to his death. Frankly, Kurt WAS the only person who ever treated Logan like human being and not an animal. And Logan was the only person who ever treated Kurt like a friend and not a little token "physically evident" mutant. Logan respected Kurt's beliefs, even if he didn't share them, relied on Kurt for emotional support, and protected Kurt from physical danger. They were amazing friends, and it's only right that he should give the eulogy Kurt deserves.

I'm not entirely sure I want to hear what the rest of the X-Men said ... they way the spoiler says things, I'm getting a little upset.

And WHY is ICEMAN giving the catholic rites? What, you don't respect the guy's religion enough to get him an actual priest?

I keep getting more and more disappointed by what I have read/heard/seen about Kurt's death and the reaction to it. This has not been well-written or well-thought-out, and somebody ought to do something about it.
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Post by Trigger »

OH YEAH!!

I forgot to mention, one of the verses that Iceman shares is: "Thus says the Lord God; O my people, I will open your graves and have you rise from them, and bring you back to the land of Israel."

Anybody else think this could be foreshadowing?

There is even another instance where a possible resurrection is alluded to. During Peter's goodbye spiel to Kurt he says, "They said I was dead once too. Maybe this works out okay."

I'm really hoping this is foreshadowing.



[Edited on 5/5/10 by Trigger]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Wow, Peter really says that?

How... uncharacteristic and obnoxiously foreboding.... what awful, awful, writing. LOL

And Def? To clarify why it's Iceman;

*ring ring*

"Hello, God be with you."

"Uh... Hi... this is Scott Summers... aaaand... we need a priest for a funeral. Catholic funeral. Like... now."

"Okay, where are you?"

"Utopia."

"....The Mutant Utopia?"

"Yyyyes."

"And who is this funeral for?"

"A blue, fuzzy, funny mutant who closely resembles your religions depiction of THE DEVIL."

"Ah..... We'll be right there."

"Thanks!"

*click*

*ring ring*
"Bastion residence?"

"Yes, this is Father Dewhickey. I have some information about where you can find the last remaining mutants?"

"Oh, re-he-he-he-heaaaallly?"

[Edited on 5/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by Angelique »

Now that is in such atrociously poor taste, I wouldn't put it past Marvel to accept that pitch. :X
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Post by neling4 »

That was funny Ult_Sm86. :LOL

Trigger wrote:OH YEAH!!

I forgot to mention, one of the verses that Iceman shares is: "Thus says the Lord God; O my people, I will open your graves and have you rise from them, and bring you back to the land of Israel."

Anybody else think this could be foreshadowing?

There is even another instance where a possible resurrection is alluded to. During Peter's goodbye spiel to Kurt he says, "They said I was dead once too. Maybe this works out okay."

I'm really hoping this is foreshadowing.
That would be nice. Maybe they aren't such asses after all. Pardon my Cherokee.

Here is a slightly more detailed synopsis of the last few pages:

Spoiler alert, in case you don't want to know.












Page thirteen: Logan is left alone with Kurt's body as everyone else has a family reunion and catch up on the news. Insert inane smiling smilie here. Except for the panel with Logan and Kurt, it was much too cheerful.


The last seven pages weren't bad.

Hank arrives as Kurt's casket is being carried to the crematorium.

Yes, they cremated Kurt.

Hank cries as they walk past with Kurt's casket. He confronts Scott, and tells him that Kurt's death is Scott's fault. (He's right about that.)

Some have said it was in bad taste, but I didn't think so. I thought it was a very logical reaction for Hank.

Scott, Logan and Colossus are the pall-bearers.

Bobby Drake, or maybe Sam Guthrie, I'm not sure which, gives the eulogy. They admit it is not a Catholic service and they don't try to make it one.

Then Xavier, Colossus, Hank, Storm, Angel, Emma and Scott each say something nice about Kurt.

Logan is obviously beyond words, at first. Since what he says is posted elsewhere, I will just repeat what he says to Scott and Hope,

"Now he's gone, and for WHAT? You better be worth it."











[Edited on 5/5/10 by neling4]
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