X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

[Angelique]

This is precisely why I believe the decision to kill off Kurt was very ill thought out. Maybe for the benefit of this story, it might have been important. I don't know. But how about future stories?

[Trigger]

I'm going to try to say this as politely as possible.

Frankly, Nightcrawler's religion was one of the things I liked most about him. I can understand if a lot of you don't necessarily like that (I know it wasn't a part of the character originally) but I found it something I could relate to. I felt (and still feel) like his religion was an important part. It would make me incredibly sad (and very mad) if Kurt gave up his beliefs for any reason.

Okay, so maybe I'm over-analyzing and overreacting to the whole Limbo thing (I never liked the concept -- could they tone down on the occult/demon stuff?) but I'd be really upset if they did ANYTHING to contradict his beliefs. It's one of the main reasons why I hate the whole death-and-resurrection thing -- where exactly have these characters gone while they were dead? Were they just "not there?" Were they having "out of body" experiences? It confuses me, and because I don't know where they go or how they exist when they "die," it worries me how Kurt will react to the whole thing if/when he comes back.

And I'm afraid I probably wasn't very coherent in my earlier post because I was ranting. Sorry.

I agree on all counts. I really hope that when he comes back he doesn't come back changed, and him losing his faith would be a major change. Whether or not the religious side of him was intended by his creator, it is a part of him as a character now.

I just want him back, and I want him whole.

And on a different note, this seemed way too fitting for this thread to be left alone (WARNING!!! MAJOR SPOILERS!):

http://answertolifeis42.deviantart.com/ ... -162557207





[Edited on 2/5/10 by Trigger]

[Diablo]

It's just my opinion, but for me, the religious side is not necessary.
I understand why people dig it but he wasn't created this way.
I stand with the late Dave Cockrum for this.
It is always a stange thing for me, as a european, to see the creation slipping from the creator to a company and other writers's control.

In European comic books, the creators own their characters almost all the time. It's the same with mangas.
Not that I'm not glad, owning tons of comics featuring the elf by different artists.

But one should always listen to the creator's will.

Anyway, what I like the most about Kurt is his swashbuckling side. The past years, how often have we seen that ?

[The Drastic Spastic]

And yeah, why WOULDN'T he show up in Limbo? It seems like a perfectly plausible way to keep his religion intact

He wouldn't be in Limbo because to get to Limbo in the MU, you have to still be alive. You go there by magic, not dying. No one in the MU has gone to the dimension known as Limbo by dying. Unless people are thinking that's... where... demons... ooooh. Oooooh. Oh wow. Yeah, I get it now. Maybe. But I can't see how his faith would survive that.

Bring him back from MARVEL U LIMBO would force him to re-analyze his beliefs and maybe tone them down.

If they do it that way, he will do more than "re-analyze" his beliefs. My interpretation of this idea - him ending up in Limbo because that's where demons go when they die - is that it means he CAN'T go to Heaven. Ever. Any time he dies, he will simply resurrect in Limbo. That is fucked up. It's so dark and fucked up I can't even imagine how it would play out.

Unless you meant something else??

[Ult_Sm86]

Diablo hits the nail on the head with my feel of religion in terms of Kurt's character.

I don't see how it helps him, I've only seen it as a plot device.

I have been insinuating thus far that I want to see this plot device used to bring him back. But Drastic made the example of "every time religions used things get redundant/and/or/boring" and she also (God I hate saying this) is right. But because of Kurt's relationship to Magik, the Souldword, Magik's Limbo, and everything else, I really feel that is going to be how it's done. When it's done. It is going to happen people, he of course IS going to come back.

[neling4]

It is going to happen people, he of course IS going to come back.

I don't agree about the religious aspect of Kurt's character. I have always liked it. It makes him more relatable for me as a Christian.

You are right, Ult_Sm86. He is coming back. As far as I am concerned, Def's letter proves it. Unfortunately, after the first euphoria wore off, I began to worry about the hint that it would be via the Draco arc and the half-demon nonsense that they plan to bring him back. Apparently, this was another of the decisions they made in their conference. It was planned from the beginning to kill him off, then bring him back as a demon.

They are ignoring previous events which make it impossible for Kurt to be a demon or half-demon.

Edited out my crabbiness.


[Edited on 3/5/10 by neling4]

[Elfdame]

OT (as usual, for me): I like Kurt's Catholicism in general tho I realize that turned his Creator off. If he were written as a normal person (like Ang) who was a swashbuckler with a big heart that came quietly from his Faith, it might not be such a turn-off to people. In my fanfic he's pretty hard-core Catholic, but he still likes adventure and female companionship and bantering his foes into submission.

[Angelique]

I think of it this way. Magneto wasn't originally Jewish. Nightcrawler wasn't originally Catholic. Wolverine didn't originally have any real friends. Suffice to say, not all changes made to characters are for the worse. I think making Magneto Jewish was a huge improvement- it gave him a back story and explained a lot of why he did what he did. It also gave Jewish readers someone with whom they could identify. Giving Wolverine a best friend (and not instantly) mellowed him enough to prove he wasn't just all claws and berserker rage. Making Nightcrawler Catholic- huge improvement in my book. It explains a lot of why he does what he does and makes him relatable to me in a way that even a shared sense of adventure and taste in movies doesn't quite cover.

[Angelique]

Taking a bit of flack on CBR for standing by my opinion that the other characters should have been shown attempting to treat Kurt's injuries.

[neling4]

I noticed that. CBR can be a pretty rough forum. I think they are a bit too lenient. Some posters who were banned at Marvel for behaving like Trolls, are now continuing their Troll behavior at CBR.

[Edited on 3/5/10 by neling4]

[The Drastic Spastic]

I think of it this way. Magneto wasn't originally Jewish. Nightcrawler wasn't originally Catholic. Wolverine didn't originally have any real friends.

Nightcrawler wasn't originally half demon.

Still have my fingers crossed for future bad-assery. Yost and Kyle do have a tendency towards the bad-ass. There isn't much that is more bad-ass than demons. They also have a tendency towards building up hope and then brutally knocking the wind out of a person. Fingers crossed that the irony is blowing in the right (imo) direction on this one.

[Angelique]

Well, Nightcrawler originally originally was a demon. Then an alien. Then a wonderful human being whose appearance and abilities were the results of mutations. Now in addition to killing him off, they're changing him yet again.

I didn't say all changes were improvements, did I?

[neling4]

There are a couple of reasons why Kurt cannot be either demon or half-demon: Doctor Strange and the Eye of Agamotto, and the actions of the High Revolutionary.

I'll post the relevant panels as soon as I get them scanned into my computer.

I also have a new theory on the Arc Which Should Be Forgotten.

[Jeremus]

I'm thinking Def's flowers weren't from Marvel......

Since nobody else has gotten them, maybe someone you know is just trying to make you feel better (unless you know someone who works at Marvel...?)
The reason I'm saying this is that if they really aren't from Marvel, then the hint in the note about the very thing we wanted retconned is what will help him in the end, isn't really being considered at all.
I do however think those in charge lean that way anyway, and it's definitely a possibility they'd want to resurrect him as a half demon, but there's a very good chance they won't.....if the note is fake.

But like Neling said....there's no way they could make him into any kind of demon, because there's too much in the back issues going back years that prove he can't be a demon. I started a list at Marvel on reasons Kurt could not be a demon and the eye of agimotto is like #1 and is cannon and cannot be dismissed!

(Of course they're going to do whatever they want to, but maybe it's really not on the table. They've jerked us around before....and seem to enjoy doing it.)

[Angelique]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/spolier ... 00503.html

Sigh. Was there something edited out of this interview that should not have been? Because this doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, it's times like these that the X-books need Nightcrawler the most, and look what happened.

This is precisely why I'm dropping a lot of titles- if I wanted to be depressed, I certainly don't need any help from my entertainment of choice.

[neling4]

I saw that article linked at CBR. It made me angry again. They will miss him for "years"? That doesn't sound like they are planning to bring him back any time soon.

Nonetheless, I would like to know where those flowers and the note came from. A call to the florist would solve that mystery pretty quickly.

[Wahnsinn]

After years of on-and-off lurking, Kurt's death drove me to register. Go easy on me?

I'm seriously considering writing an angry, yet sensible, letter to Marvel. I really don't understand what they're thinking lately. Do they really think death is the only way for a story to have an impact on its readers? And, seriously, killing one of the most heroic X-Men before the beginning of the Heroic Age? Whose bright idea was that?

Maybe I'm jumping the gun, though. Maybe Hope will go all Phoenix on the bad guys then rezz the man who saved her while reversing some aspect of the no-more-mutants decree. She's supposed to be so very powerful, and the few glimpses of her abilities indicate as much. She's supposed to be 17 now, right? Why hasn't Cable worked with her to develop her powers and teach her how to use them responsibly? Dereliction of duty! No, no, Cable couldn't teach her how to defend herself without guns. He had to teach his little soldier how to stand around like a useless meatsack while others get dead to save her defenseless butt.

Oh, they'll bring Kurt back one day. I want him back, but I don't want him back broken. The idea that they could have Layla rezz him soulless is rather troubling. I'm hoping the writers and editors don't suffer a collective round of amnesia and forget that Azazel isn't supposed to be an actual demon and have him rezz him as some kind of demonic puppet. I want Kurt back as the joyful swashbuckler he was—last seen in the Danger Room with Rachel—and not as the angst-ridden wallpaper he became. I'll stretch my suspension of disbelief to new lengths and tolerate him suffering from temporary amnesia if we can get him back to his old self again. *sigh*

[Diablo]

[rquote=33699097&tid=13011&author=Angelique]I think of it this way. Magneto wasn't originally Jewish. Nightcrawler wasn't originally Catholic. Wolverine didn't originally have any real friends. Suffice to say, not all changes made to characters are for the worse. I think making Magneto Jewish was a huge improvement- it gave him a back story and explained a lot of why he did what he did. It also gave Jewish readers someone with whom they could identify. Giving Wolverine a best friend (and not instantly) mellowed him enough to prove he wasn't just all claws and berserker rage. Making Nightcrawler Catholic- huge improvement in my book. It explains a lot of why he does what he does and makes him relatable to me in a way that even a shared sense of adventure and taste in movies doesn't quite cover.[/rquote]

Well, I don't think Stan Lee complained about Magneto's faith. But, regarding Nightcrawler, Dave Cockrum did.
It makes a huge difference.

Besides, Magneto being a jewish introduces tragedy in his life : a real bonus.
As for Kurt, with or without religion, he's still the same great, optimistic, swashbuckling blue elf.

I guess this is a sensitive topic.
I understand why Catholics love this side of him.
For me, it can only work if Nightcrawler doesn't show his faith all the time. If he's a constant preacher, it becomes boring.

I'm not against the idea of him becoming a demon. OF COURSE, I prefer good old classic Kurt, with his sense of humour, his kind heart, his humanity.
But if the story is well handled, why not ?
As long as he comes back to his true nature one day.

Anyway, we're all making assumptions here.
I don't think the actual writers at the X-office care enough to put a complex story about him altogether.

I fear Kurt will stay dead, with no plan to bring him back.



[rquote=33699166&tid=13011&author=Wahnsinn]After years of on-and-off lurking, Kurt's death drove me to register. Go easy on me?

I'm seriously considering writing an angry, yet sensible, letter to Marvel. I really don't understand what they're thinking lately. Do they really think death is the only way for a story to have an impact on its readers? And, seriously, killing one of the most heroic X-Men before the beginning of the Heroic Age? Whose bright idea was that?

Maybe I'm jumping the gun, though. Maybe Hope will go all Phoenix on the bad guys then rezz the man who saved her while reversing some aspect of the no-more-mutants decree. She's supposed to be so very powerful, and the few glimpses of her abilities indicate as much. She's supposed to be 17 now, right? Why hasn't Cable worked with her to develop her powers and teach her how to use them responsibly? Dereliction of duty! No, no, Cable couldn't teach her how to defend herself without guns. He had to teach his little soldier how to stand around like a useless meatsack while others get dead to save her defenseless butt.

Oh, they'll bring Kurt back one day. I want him back, but I don't want him back broken. The idea that they could have Layla rezz him soulless is rather troubling. I'm hoping the writers and editors don't suffer a collective round of amnesia and forget that Azazel isn't supposed to be an actual demon and have him rezz him as some kind of demonic puppet. I want Kurt back as the joyful swashbuckler he was—last seen in the Danger Room with Rachel—and not as the angst-ridden wallpaper he became. I'll stretch my suspension of disbelief to new lengths and tolerate him suffering from temporary amnesia if we can get him back to his old self again. *sigh*[/rquote]

Welcome, Wahnsinn.

Yes, you should write to Marvel.
Everybody here should.
I'm going to, at the end of the week.
(I just have to find the words to remain polite...)





[Edited on 4-5-2010 by Diablo]

[Wahnsinn]

Thanks, Diablo!

I have no trouble remaining polite. I mostly find myself delaying to see where the story goes. If Kurt were to be rezzed by the end, the method would impact the letter's content. Even if they bring him back immediately in a way that doesn't damage his character, I still wouldn't be happy about them treating character deaths as cheap stunts. It seems like every other solicitation contains hints of a death. It's turned the "House of Ideas" moniker into a complete joke.

It's one thing to hear that saying about there being no original ideas. It's another to watch it in action in multiple creative fields. More and more songs seem to contain samples or be covers. More movies than not seem to be adaptations or remakes. DC and Marvel, beyond retreading old material in "new" ways, are simultaneously running stories with similar themes. It's almost as if long-forgotten story ideas that were pitched to both companies and dismissed got resurrected because the editors can't think of anything better to do.

[Angelique]

I have already let one of the creators responsible know how I feel, and he's also identified my posts on CBR as mine, so he is aware of most of the plot holes I detected.

Here's another- if infant Hope could cure Rogue of all her issues with just one touch, it seems all too apparent that the only reason why she couldn't heal Kurt is pretty much the same as the reason why Cloak's not involved and Vanisher's cooling his heels in San Fran, Kitty can't spare a moment out of her containment tube to help, and everyone stands around wasting all the time it's theoretically possible to bring back someone from flatline- because quite simply, they decided Kurt had to die, and no regard for fan sentiment, plot cohesion, and characterization would change that.
Anyway, here's more fan response: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/forum/forum_ ... =7549&PN=1
But I digress. Making this much more difficult for me is the fact that I happen to think pretty highly of Chris Yost. How do you tell someone you like that their book has put you off Marvel comics altogether?

[Edited on 4/5/2010 by Angelique]

[Jeremus]

Unless his death is the only thing that prevents the gates of hell from descending upon the universe, there was no reason for it.

They got rid of him....plain and simple.




And welcome, Wahnsinn!

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]

[Angelique]

And here's more evidence that readers are becoming weary of the overabundance of death in comics, as exemplified in X-Force.

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/sho ... 428&page=6

[Elfdame]

I hope it's ok to quote from someone there. "Gary Fitzgerald" expressed many feelings that seem to be popping up here a lot.

Emphasis mine.

What annoys me about Kyle and Yost is that I know than they can do better than the grim, relentless misery they put us through every time they write an issue.

Bringing minor characters in just to kill them off is lazy, poor writing. The first couple of times it is shocking, but now when an under-used character shows up, its just expected. If they want to build up tension and suspense, they could do it by writing properly (see also, david, peter) and still keep a lighter tone to the book. X-Factor has gone through some heavy stuff, but our heroes in the book remain likable people who joke with each other. X-Force (and new X-men before it) is just too over the top. Misery, death, misery, misery, death, claws, knives.

I dont blame them for this current death though, it's a collective effort. I honestly think it didnt have to happen, it just seems that they couldnt see the character doing slashy stabby misery guts and decided to bump him off.

I used to read X-titles for the variety of characters. Not for loads of characters who all have a wolverine "bad-ass antihero" vibe.

I bought my first ever DC comics yesterday. Batman and Robin. Much better, dark, yet still, crucially, fun. Bought the first six issues hardcover as well. My allegiance is wavering. Oh, and the fact there were a lot less bloody adverts was nice too...

"minor characters" Grrrr. I mean, it's Kurt Wagner, not Guy Fleegman. But the rest of it seems to be reasonable.

[Wahnsinn]

Thanks, Jeremus!

I'll give them a pass on keeping Kitty in her pod because I don't know how much help she would be when she can't go solid to grab the arm to phase it. One of the many issues that bugs me is how Bastion, upon detecting Kurt using his mutant ability, managed to get his arm in place fast enough to be there when Kurt materialized. It's not like there's five-second delay. On top of that, it would've made far more sense for Kurt to materialize behind Hope and grab her to immediately teleport away. Kurt got stupid for the purposes of getting dead.

[neling4]

"minor characters" Grrrr. I mean, it's Kurt Wagner, not Guy Fleegman. But the rest of it seems to be reasonable.

I think he was referring to Ariel.