Wolverine: Not so great

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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by steyn »

He's basically the superman of marvel.

[Edited on 6/5/2009 by steyn]
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by neling4 »

Freak wrote:You know what I personally dislike about Wolverine? He's a Mary Sue. :shifty

Think about it: He gets women en masse, even though he's short and hairy and has got no manners. He survives the most ridiculous situations (hey, he's short, hairy, ferral...maybe his dad was Bugs Bunny?) and from time to time he gets all emotionally deep, like, totally (meaning he gets the dark brooding AND the ability to solve everything he perceives as a problem quickly and without hindrance, an emo's wet dream).

Basically, he's a samurai, a weapon, a victim, a killer, a lover, a hero, all at the same time, and only the positive parts. I am a firm believer that in a comic, every profile of a character should have advantages and disadvantages. Like, if you want your cash cow to be a samurai, because samurai swords and stuff like that are all kinds of cool nowadays, you should show him with a bit more control over his temper and a bit less bloodlust, because samurais aren't all about the rage.

So yeah, to me Wolverine=cash cow Mary Sue that's there to fullfill the power fantasies of teenagers and be cool for being-cool's sake :shrug
Well put! I think I agree with everything you said.

I particularly like the idea of Bugs Bunny as his dad, although he looks more like the Tasmanian Devil.
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by Elfdame »

I like Wolverine (in limited doses). I can relate to him in a lot of ways. And for once I'm not kidding. Also, I like a conflicted character. He's trying to feed the good side but the other side (partly him, partly done to him) takes over. Classic mythos, works for me.

And it's cute to watch him con Kurt out of beer all the time.
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Freak wrote:Like, if you want your cash cow to be a samurai, because samurai swords and stuff like that are all kinds of cool nowadays, you should show him with a bit more control over his temper and a bit less bloodlust, because samurais aren't all about the rage.
Have you ever read any of the Wolverine samurai stories? He does control his rage, and quite well too. He can let things go and accept the things he can't change. He can be sensitive and thoughtful and probably does traditional flower-arranging in his spare time. Wolverine = dreamy.

Did you just skip that episode of Wolverine and the X-Men or something?
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I'm pretty sure, Spaz, that he's referencing the comics and films. I mean... awesome animated, non-canon shows aside, in Comic Canon, his character is a samurai warrior who for some reason is on a super-elite-kill-squad for Scott and the X-men.
That and his crazed bloodlust to kill-kill-kill every time villains show up. I do agree with Freak on this, his character changes as each generation of cool chooses its definition of cool. I find this pretty self evident actually.
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by Freak »

Bman is right, I was referencing the comics. I will give you that he's calm and self-controlled in the stories where he's a samurai, but then you get him ripping his way through waves of Hydra agents by the next issue, covered in blood and screaming like a madman.

I see the problem with each writer interpreting the character differently, but by now you could assume he's somewhat bipolar. OR, which I'd think is the actual truth, the writers just want to write him cool, and not consistent.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Freak wrote:Bman is right, I was referencing the comics. I will give you that he's calm and self-controlled in the stories where he's a samurai, but then you get him ripping his way through waves of Hydra agents by the next issue, covered in blood and screaming like a madman.

I see the problem with each writer interpreting the character differently, but by now you could assume he's somewhat bipolar. OR, which I'd think is the actual truth, the writers just want to write him cool, and not consistent.
Oh, you want him to be consistent, but I thought we were talking about a character with a 35 year history who has been written by dozens, maybe even hundreds, of different writers. Carry on with your bashing. :P
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by Slarti »

The Drastic Spastic wrote: Oh, you want him to be consistent, but I thought we were talking about a character with a 35 year history who has been written by dozens, maybe even hundreds, of different writers. Carry on with your bashing. :P
BWAHAHAHA. Agreed.
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Post by Freak »

I already pointed out that I'm willing to accept fluctuation from different writers , but the amount with Wolverine is just too much for my personal taste. But hey, please keep on only reading information out of my comments that allows you to mock me :shrug
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Oh, you want him to be consistent, but I thought we were talking about a character with a 35 year history who has been written by dozens, maybe even hundreds, of different writers. Carry on with your bashing. :P
Argue just for the sake of arguing, huh? :smirk


Look, Storm, has been around just as long. Spider-Man as well. You got characters like Scott and Jean who have been around slightly longer. And what happens?
Storm - Consistent.
SpiderMan - Fairly consistent, more so than Logan at least
Scott - Was a tool, still is a tool, will always be a tool
Jean - went from poorly developed to one of the most extremely developed characters in marvel history with very little retcon going on.

So why is it they have to keep changing up Logan's anger levels and such? I agree with Freak 100%, he is what they need him to be, when they need him to be that. And the ending result is a character who is just too much. Like Superman.


That said, gotta love Batman. Very little canonical change in personality there and he's been around for about forty years before Logan was even a thought.

[Edited on 7/5/09 by Ult_Sm86]
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by OctoberHoliday »

Yes, gotta love Batman. What other spoiled rich kid can save the world countless times over. He's got to be one of my favorite comic-dudes. :D

I didn't know that they changed Wolverine so much. But now I see one of the little annoyances I have with him; I've never liked Superman, and you guys are right, they sort of change with everything, and he doesn't have enough nasties about him (besides that little aggrasiveness in him, and of course the memory thing). Too many things work out for him too well.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
Oh, you want him to be consistent, but I thought we were talking about a character with a 35 year history who has been written by dozens, maybe even hundreds, of different writers. Carry on with your bashing. :P
Argue just for the sake of arguing, huh? :smirk


Look, Storm, has been around just as long. Spider-Man as well. You got characters like Scott and Jean who have been around slightly longer. And what happens?
Storm - Consistent.
SpiderMan - Fairly consistent, more so than Logan at least
Scott - Was a tool, still is a tool, will always be a tool
Jean - went from poorly developed to one of the most extremely developed characters in marvel history with very little retcon going on.
If Logan having two sides (rampaging beast and noble samurai) is inconsistent, you really can't claim that any character is consistent. Those are both parts of his character that writers choose from depending on the story they want to tell.

Now you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Storm? Consistent? Ha! She's changed her look, her style, her personality. She was a bicurious punk for awhile, but now she's back to the "African Queen" thing. Only they actually made her a queen now, oooooh how clever.

Scott is consistent, maybe, though if you could have imagined Scott having an affair with Emma Frost before it actually happened, you have a better imagination than I do.

I'll give you Jean for consistency but I believe she went from underdeveloped to overused and still underdeveloped.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

If Logan having two sides (rampaging beast and noble samurai) is inconsistent, you really can't claim that any character is consistent. Those are both parts of his character that writers choose from depending on the story they want to tell.
That's the thing, it's not just two sides. It's always more than two sides. he's either a calm, well balanced, poised killer, or a ruthless, animalistic killer. OR he's a lumberjack bum who doesn't want trouble with anyone. Or he's rought and tumble burly an Aussie. Logan is one of Marvel's most inconsistent characters.
Now you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Storm? Consistent? Ha! She's changed her look, her style, her personality. She was a bicurious punk for awhile, but now she's back to the "African Queen" thing. Only they actually made her a queen now, oooooh how clever.


I'm not talking about appearance. And she went through a couple brief stages of depression I'll give you that, but it seems to me now that they're trying to keep her on track with one set personality (archetype, character outline, whathaveyou).
Scott is consistent, maybe, though if you could have imagined Scott having an affair with Emma Frost before it actually happened, you have a better imagination than I do.
How does losing your wife and moving on make you inconsistent? The only thing inconsistent thing in that relationship is that his dumb dead bitch of a wife keeps popping up from her grave, or returning from space, giving him a massive headache and immeasurable grief each time she does so. Because he loves her, but he can't handle her... well... inconsistency as a lover, a spouse, and a friend. Emma, no matter how much of a bitch she is, sort of... for some odd reason... cares for him. Now maybe she's just a telepath using mind duping capabilities, but I'd think that after years of being with jean he'd know when he's under the influence. I think they're in a legit relationship, no matter how much we hate it.
I'll give you Jean for consistency but I believe she went from underdeveloped to overused and still underdeveloped.
I quite agree.
Hank as well. Short of his second mutation, he's just a jolly doctor trying to live a peaceful existence and is forced to use his fists in a disagreeable manner all too frequently for his tastes. And he has always been this.




[Edited on 9/5/09 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

33689421&tid=11969&author=Ult_Sm86 wrote:Or he's rought and tumble burly an Aussie. Logan is one of Marvel's most inconsistent characters.
Now who's bringing in the cartoons that have nothing to do with anything??
Scott is consistent, maybe, though if you could have imagined Scott having an affair with Emma Frost before it actually happened, you have a better imagination than I do.
How does losing your wife and moving on make you inconsistent? The only thing inconsistent thing in that relationship is that his dumb dead bitch of a wife keeps popping up from her grave, or returning from space, giving him a massive headache and immeasurable grief each time she does so. Because he loves her, but he can't handle her... well... inconsistency as a lover, a spouse, and a friend. Emma, no matter how much of a bitch she is, sort of... for some odd reason... cares for him.
This isn't about their relationship being real, it's about Scott's consistency. He was always very strict about following the rules, then he went and cheated on his wife. It's called depth, another reason Wolverine is so popular.

Real people (the interesting ones anyway) tend towards the complex, and they can't be fully summed up in one sentence. None of his personality traits are incompatible with each other, it's not like in half his stories he does the opposite of what you'd expect based on the other half. Sometimes he has self-control, sometimes he doesn't. Just like real people!
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Post by steyn »

Guess even the stuck up person has limits.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

:shrug
We can go at this 'til the cows come home. I personally believe Logan has become a joke and they put him wherever they need him to boost interest 'cuz he is, as Freak describes, a character who can be what you need him to be. A cash cow.

Also
This isn't about their relationship being real, it's about Scott's consistency. He was always very strict about following the rules, then he went and cheated on his wife. It's called depth, another reason Wolverine is so popular.
You don't think that says something about Scott? Or did you to do my post what you do to freak's, which is skim for talking points and avoid the rest. I said, quite clearly:
How does losing your wife and moving on make you inconsistent? The only thing inconsistent thing in that relationship is that his dumb dead bitch of a wife keeps popping up from her grave, or returning from space, giving him a massive headache and immeasurable grief each time she does so. Because he loves her, but he can't handle her... well... inconsistency as a lover, a spouse, and a friend.
As steyn said,
Guess even the stuck up person has limits.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Ult_Sm86 wrote: You don't think that says something about Scott? Or did you to do my post what you do to freak's, which is skim for talking points and avoid the rest. I said, quite clearly:
How does losing your wife and moving on make you inconsistent? The only thing inconsistent thing in that relationship is that his dumb dead bitch of a wife keeps popping up from her grave, or returning from space, giving him a massive headache and immeasurable grief each time she does so. Because he loves her, but he can't handle her... well... inconsistency as a lover, a spouse, and a friend.
Because he didn't lose her and move on in that story, she was alive and they were married. Then he cheated on her. I ignored it because it made no sense. He moved on after she died the first time, but they were back together and formally married when he cheated with Emma. For a rules person, that's still going to be a taboo.
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by OctoberHoliday »

Hasn't everyone cheated with Emma Frost? Or at least been with her.

But wasn't Jean consistent the whole time? Did she ever really drift from Scott, or was she stuck at one point for basically the whole series?
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

You know, sort of off topic but more back onto the actual topic,


there's another inconsistency with Logan.

Jean.

Is he into her? Is he not?
Is she the one for him? If she is, what the hell, what's with the love triangle? It seems like he's her dirty secret and she's his one vice. And at other times, they are completely indifferent to eachother.

The only consistency i have EVER seen with that relationship is in Ultimate. (believe it or not).

Not the 90's animated series, Evolution, W&XMen, or Pryde of the X-Men (however that title goes). Not even canon has that relationship made any sense.

It always has interesting elements in Ultimate though. Shame the rest of that book is total suck. Grey Kurt and all.
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Post by steyn »

I thought he was into her because she reminded him of someone in his past or something like that.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Well, thanks to Origins that apparently is the case, but that was published in what... 05? So what's the explanation for the thirty years before then?
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Wolverine: Not so great

Post by steyn »

well, if I knew an answer to a question and decided to tell you next week, it'll still be the same answer today.
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